View Full Version : Kata, Forgotten or Hidden by the Kodokan?
12-30-2000, 07:05 AM
After a marvelous response in the Aikido forum it has been suggested we continue here, so here I am!
I am aware of a number of Judo kata that are no longer practiced at the Kodokan, one of these is named SHOBU NO KATA or Contest Form and includes Randori techniques both Nage and Katame.
Another is GO NO SEN NO KATA or Counter Form which I was told followed NAGE NO KATA and KATAME NO KATA.
Why were they shelved?
Also the Kodokan had a series of techniques called RENKOHO or Forms of Arrest does anyone know anything about these.
Finally the GO NO KATA or Form of Hardness which I believe is a mixture of Judo and Shotokan Karate.
Is there more than one GO NO KATA?
Tim BURTON Taiho Jutsu
12-30-2000, 02:56 PM
It is said that the Go No Kata was Kano and Funakoshi's Kata, devised to enshrine karate waza in Judo Kata.
But there may have been other kata named this.
I think Gonosen No Kata may also be the same as the Kaeshi No Kata.
Heard of the arresting Kata, for police work.
Where are they now? Well, Kodokan has a Little known Department of Hiding Kata, but some on Kodokan Judo orgs retain some or all of these kata, see Kawaishi's people, for instance.
Go No Kata I do not know where to find? Perhaps Ed or Mark will know.
I would actually like to see that one,myself.
Shobu Kata, no info.
12-31-2000, 02:12 AM
I invited you, not to stop your posts, but I thought that some of the discussion in aikido would make for good discussion here.
It is possible that the go no sen never existed as a separate and distinct kata, and this may have been because the counters to the waza were simply contained in other waza (Nage no kata, or randori no kata). Gaeshi no kata remains as well, but not as a distinct kata, as there are just too many to catalogue.
Shobu no kata, I would have no idea. I have seen demonstrations of nage no kata which also demonstrated how the waza differed when applied in a contest-like form. Many kata were dropped or never accepted by the Kodokan, as it, in general, did not like any thing not created by J. Kano and his contemporaries.
However, in The Seven Kata of Judo by Mikinosuke Kawaishi, Go no sen no kata has been preserved.
I suspect others no longer taught at the Kodokan still are practiced by those whose interest is in the kata, and not contest judo. An example you may know of, Pat, is John Cornish, and his students. You may find an article (a response, really) to the question of kata being of any value to International judo coaches. If not found at http://www.kanosociety.org or http://www.budokwai.org , I have a couple of things, one all ready posted in theses threads, of Cornish, and his answer to the notion that kata is of little value when training someone for the Olympics and other international events. One here in the judo threads is a description of what it was like not to do your kata correctly, and how Mifune Kyuzo corrected this.:)
If there is any interest in such, I can post that, at least, but it should be found on one of the two sites mentioned, probably at the Kano Society site.
As to shobu no kata not being taught, it may be one of the better decisions make by the Kodokan, but I doubt that the waza isn't taught.
12-31-2000, 07:34 AM
The RENKOHO (forms of arrest) are apparently detailed in the 1954 edition of Illustrated Kodokan Judo.
The Renkoho consists of eight techniques, all of which end in the same position. Uke is face down and has one of their arms pinned up their back by tori’s knee and shin. This leaves tori’s hands free to bind the uke with a cord in what is termed Hojo jutsu. The Kata is supposed to have come from the Kito Ryu.
It has four kneeling techniques, which deal with attacks made, left, front, right and rear, followed by four standing techniques which follow attacks from same directions.
Although I have seen the Renkoho performed, I have never been able to put names to the techniques used.
If anyone has a copy of this book and can list the eight techniques I would be very grateful.
The GO NO KATA (form of hardness) appears to be an attempt to fuse the Karate jutsu later to be called Shotokan, with Kodokan Judo. It is not (the one I have seen) a fusion of Judo and the atemi of Tenshin shin yo ryu. It has twenty techniques divided into eleven Omote where the practitioners return to their starting positions before commencing the next technique. This is followed by nine Tachi, in which the attacks are continuous and made from where ever uke finishes up after a technique.
To give an example the first Omote is as follows (my description) Uke attacks with a migi chudan gyaku tsuki. Tori moves forward in migi zenkutsu dachi and blocks migi uchi uke, followed by hidari chudan gyaku tsuki and then hidari hiza geri to the groin. With the leg still raised from the knee strike Tori turns in rather like Hane goshi with the left leg whilst taking hold of Uke around the waist with the left arm. Tori then throws with what looks like a Harai goshi.
My source for these is the Yama ji kan archieve, which state they were taught by Isao Obato 8th Dan (1934 1986).
The SHOBU NO KATA comes from the same source and contains thirty movements,
Set one, five waza, Osoto gari, Tai otaoshi, Ko uchi gake, Ogoshi, and Uchi mata.
Set two, eight waza, Ko soto gake, Okuri ashi barai, Yoko gake kuzure, Kochiki taoshi, Te garuma, Tawara gaeshi kuzure, Uchi mata sukashi and Uchi mata renraku.
Set three, six waza, Tomoe nage, Ashi de osae, Yoko tomoe nage, Ashi garami, Ashi garami-ude gatame and Uke wakare.
Set four, five waza, Yoko guruma, Ude age, Ashi renkoho, Seoi nage and Kata juji jime.
Set five, two waza, Ashi garami shime waza and Ouchi sukashi.
Set six, four waza, Ude garami nage, Ude garami sutemi nage, Kaiten nage and Ude otoshi.
With regards to Mr John Cornish, he was of great help to me a few years ago when I was researching Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, we exchanged letters and he even provided a signed copy of a book he had written on the subject. As an aside he told me that it was his wife who provided the Taiho Jutsu calligraphy for sensei Eustace that we still use today. Another true gent who has been of great assistance to me in recent months is Mr Dicky Bowen who is trying to help me track down one of those illusive Japanese Taiho Jutsu manuals.
A Happy New Year to you all.
01-01-2001, 01:35 AM
Well, you have the advantage on me. I only know Mr. Cornish by email, and I know of Dicky Bowen, but by reputation, and another who knows him. I have the 1958 edition of Kodokan Judo and does not lay them out as you have, so I'm sorry I haven't been of more help.
But wait until everything settles down after the New Year, and someone with more than I have will surely see your posts.
01-01-2001, 01:50 AM
Mark, does the 1958 edition have Renkoho in at all?
01-02-2001, 04:37 AM
Well, in a word, no, it doesn't, but this was the first edition (and the last, I think until the middle/late eighties) in which the Kodokan goshin jutsu no kata is included. Of course, most of what you have spelled out is there, just not as a separte display.
That said, the omote and ura of kito ryu are there, and many serve well, I would think.
You mentioned Isao Obata. His name has been brought up in conjunction with two people, one of very questionable reliabilty, and the other, I am not sure.
The go no kata is not there now at all, and the one person who claims to be able to do it, has a C/D on which he claimed he is doing the same kata. It isn't.
Which leads to another question, if you don't mind. Since Mr. Obata's history has not been cleared up, could you give a little info on him?
As to the shobu no kata, this I've never seen referenced, but nearly all the waza I have seen and/or practiced. What I do know about it, I posted on another thread, but then I suppose I'm not a romantic.:)
Thanks for your feed back.
01-02-2001, 06:25 AM
The Kime no kata is sometimes referred to as the Shinken shobu no kata. For a reference have a look in Kawaishi's book the Seven Kata's Of Judo. (Sorry cant remember the page)
01-02-2001, 07:38 AM
Hi Mark, These are my only notes on Obata
Born 1890 Tokyo Japan
1901 began study of Judo at Kodokan
1911 Awarded Shodan in Kodokan Judo
1961 Awarded Hachidan
1963 Arrives New York U.S.A.
1971 Founded the American society of classical judoka
1985 Moved to Pheonix Arizona U.S.A.
Died 1986 Heart failure.
1935 Japanese edition of Kodokan Judo is supposed to mention 21 kata including one called Shobu no kata?
1952 English edition of Kodokan Judo is supposed to mention 13 kata?
1954 English editions onwards are supposed to mention only 7?
Jujutsu and the Origins of Judo:
A Brief History
Andrew Yiannakis, Ph.D.
Steve Cunningham, Ph.D.
University of Connecticut
Judo is an Olympic sport today and it's practiced in practically every country in the world. It was first introduced to the United States in 1903, with the establishment of a club in Seattle. President Roosevelt, one of the early American students of judo even had a section of the White House converted for judo practice sessions. There are, in the United States today, approximately 1500 amateur clubs, over 400 Armed Forces clubs, and over 200 college and high school clubs. Three organizations control sport judo in the United States, the United States Judo Association, the United States Judo Federation, and United States Judo, Inc. Each is responsible for granting belts, supervising standards and sanctioning competition. Rank is recognized by all three organizations and they all subscribe to general guidelines set out by the Kodokan in Tokyo. A fourth organization known as the American Society of Classical Judoka (which is endorsed by the Kodokan's All-Japan Seibukan Martial Arts and Ways Association) keeps alive and promotes the more traditional martial arts aspects of judo. Their emphasis is on meditation, atemi-waza (striking), kata, and on methods of advanced throwing which are considered illegal in sport judo. The president and founder of this Society was Isao Obato (now deceased), 7th dan.
(Black Belt Judo, George R. Parulski, Jr.)
Isao Obato, 7th Degree Black Belt and founder of the American Society of Classical Judoka, states: "Kata, which is the systematic formulation of the most fundamental principles of throwing, grappling and body attack, can prevent us from prostituting the purity of true Judo.
It may be said that all other throwing techniques and grappling methods are only modifications of those fundamental techniques of kata. Kata then, is not practiced necessarily for direct sport or self-defense application, but rather is used to instill in its practitioner the fundamental spirit or essence behind a particular concept.
Without a doubt, the kata is the most fundamentally important practice in Judo and is also the most neglected because kata are difficult to learn and execute and are not always immediately applicable to contest situations, they sometimes are neglected or, worse, never studied at all. Methods of advanced throwing which are not applicable in a contest are left behind. Similarly, Atemi Waza, the methods of hitting, are almost forgotten. I can remember when the Karate chop was called a 'Judo chop.' But all too often, the sport of Judo prostitutes the purity of genuine classical Judo. Not too long ago, Judo was respected as an effective means of self-defense as well as a sport. Too often today the sporting egos have left Judo an empty shell, devoid of its martial heritage."
01-02-2001, 08:09 AM
Chapter IV page 93 of Kawaishi’s 7 katas does give the alternative name of SHINKEN SHOBU NO KATA to KIME NO KATA.
SHINKEN SHOBU meaning real sword contest or actual combat is another way of explaining that the Kata embodies the spirit of true combat.
01-02-2001, 09:40 AM
Please note your reference for the background information you give on Isao Obato/a in the message above.
I live in the Phoenix area and have never been able to find anyone who knew anything about him. It would be interesting to find some reference to this man outside of Mr. Parulski's writings. From what I have heard no one in Japan has any knowledge of him or his history either.
01-03-2001, 01:08 AM
Thanks, Gavin. I had the book open to that page 93 which is the new publication of the EJ Harrison translated reference to Kawaishi's book on the seven kata as I read your post. I never noted it being referred to as Shinken Shobu no kata. I teach from the kime no kata, and in fact, contrary to what GP says, I, and most teachers I know, do teach, at the very least, in pieces of kata. I just can't do it any other way.
Thanks for the information, but most of that was known concerning this man, but I have the same question(s) as Chuck. Also, wasn't it originally called the ISTJ, or International Society of Traditional Judo? Parulski may also have changed the name of the Dai Nippon Seibukan r
Renmei Budo/Bugei Kai, etc., to Seibukan USA. But I've got to be honest, and say efforts to locate any info concerning Mr. Obata turned up nothing but two defunct organizations, later the only two people who claimed they existed, then admitted that they didn't.
If Mr. Obata was all which has been stated, do you have any source other than Mr. Parulski? Frankly, Mr. Parulski comes off as, well, rude, and when asked about this, refuses to state anything, except what most other self-graded say of "sport judo."
As to the earlier editions of the Kodokan judo, I have only that from the fifties, and the one now in paperback edition which was originally published in 1986.
I suppose I like doing judo, and I never was much of a collector, but regrets, etc. Thirty-eight years and I just didn't research it when I was young and foolish. Now I'm old and foolish.:)
01-03-2001, 06:04 AM
This kata is listed in one of my old manuals back in Australia. It is basically a kata of come-alongs, I never actually did the kata per se, but did all of the techniques out of it seperately. I dont know if it is the same one, but we do the Gonosen no kata as well. Here are some of the moves;
Arm lock over neck.
Approach uke from behind, grabbing his right hand with your left hand (across your body). Step same arm same leg i.e. left arm left leg towards where his hand is pointing, pivot and bring your right arm into the opposite side of his neck. Squeeze his neck towards you and straighten up. The back of your neck should be directly under his elbow. Gain a submission then take your neck your head out (for safety) then osoto gari. Traditionally I was told that you dont take the pressure off the elbow as you throw.
Apply a normal shoulder lock on the right arm, then as the arm is in place apply pressure to lower them down head first, once their head is in the right position i.e your hip height, place the back of your hip against his shoulder, applying pressure on the shoulder and pulling his head back with your finger in his eye sockets. To finish the technique drop into a kesa gatame type position.
There other techniques like a goose neck, comealong elbow lock etc. I am not sure whether these come from the kata that you are talking about but we do have a kata of the same name. When I go back to Oz at the end of this month I will ask my sensei.
01-04-2001, 01:21 AM
There is lots of go no sen waza in the gokyo no waza and the so-called "come alongs" as well. But the go no sen no kata was never a prearranged form-type kata from the Kodokan that I know of. It may have been at one time, but from what I've read of Kawaishi and others here and there, the kata itself was constructed at Waseda University.
Looking at Kawaishi's book, there is a nice description of ashi garami, a seldom practiced leg-lock, and for good reason. It is difficult to apply this and not do *some* damage to the knee. While the exercise of the kneejoint and toes may have some good effect, The knee is yelling STOP after the first attempt at this. Even in the drawing (well-done in this one), the pain can be read.
I have heard a rumor of late which has the IJF bringing in leglocking to the Olympics and other international events.
OK, big thread drift, I know.:)
01-04-2001, 01:59 AM
originally posted by Tim Burton
Rank is recognized by all three organizations and they all subscribe to general guidelines set out by the Kodokan in Tokyo. A fourth organization known as the American Society of Classical Judoka (which is endorsed by the Kodokan's All-Japan Seibukan Martial Arts and Ways Association) keeps alive and promotes the more traditional martial arts aspects of judo.
BTW: After rereading what is attributed to Steven Cunningham (above), the Kodokan has been asked repeatedly about the existence of the "Dai Nippon Seibukan Renmei Budo/Bugei Kai" or the All Japan Seibukan Martial arts and ways Association and has denied its being connected to it, and does deny the existence of this organization. When all concerned admitted that it was defunct, it now is raised again.
As for "traditional judo" and organizations with the backing of the Kodokan, only one comes to mind, and that is the Kano Society ( http://www.kanosociety.org ).
As to the guidlines of the International Judo Federation and its national arms, there are many who do not follow the Kodokan guilines, especially when grading. Often, some deserving of that have passed on with nary a word (Trevor leggett comes to mind-He was a rokudan for more years than I've been alive, probably). Recently, two were graded at judan level, Antonius Geesink and Charlie Palmer, by the IJF, but as of the Kodokan's latest list of high ranking judoka, neither was listed anywhere close to this. Geesink, I believe, is graded rokudan by the Kodokan.
Nor are they likely to reach that status. The Kodokan has stated that no other judan grades will be awarded by them.
It is interesting, though, how even the most recent of history is misconstrued, but, well, the truth sometimes is "owned" with patents and everything.:D
01-04-2001, 04:39 AM
We did it in the form of a kata, plus there were the other techniques as well. I was told that the kata came from Mifune, then Ichiro Abe brought it to Europe when he came to France in the mid/late 1940's (where Kawaishi was). He was one of Mifune's students.
01-04-2001, 08:10 AM
It's written and published in a BOOK. That means it's gotta be true! Doesn't it??????
And, if that isn't true....what about all of the other stuff in the book?
01-05-2001, 03:45 AM
Thanks. Since I last posted, I'v gone over the go no sen no kata as layed out by Kawaishi, and all the waza seem to also be Kodokan waza. As to Mifune and the Kodokan differing, this would not be the first time. It seems the committee did not approve of others going about "inventing" kata, and Mifune was even turned down with his kukinage being a separate kata. Not everyone can be a founder, but people "found" things all the time. Even Kano, while watching a performance of the ju no kata, when noticing that something was changed by someone at the Budokwai, only mentioned it: "This is a modification of the ju no kata." He then joked that he had been doing it for forty years, and was pretty sure he could do the first two.:)
It must be true as all books are true. Caveat emptor? Well, my mother always said: "Don't believe anything you see or hear, nor an nth of what you read." I don't think this is the nth.
BTW: I did a check, again, of the SSA death index, and, again, there is no evidence of one Isao Obata/o. in the Phoenix area, nor Arizona at all (which everyone here knows). There was, however, a Misao Obata, but the dates are way off, and this one passed away in Los Angeles.
Then again, angels are all the rage again, so who knows?;)
05-14-2007, 11:23 PM
See attached for my humble attempt to synthesise a table of the non-Kodokan kata of throwing techniques.
I would be interested if anyone has a reference to Mifune's Katame-Ura-no-Kata and a list of the techniques contained therein.
05-15-2007, 12:37 AM
See attached for my humble attempt to synthesise a table of the non-Kodokan kata of throwing techniques.Excellent. Thank you.
The Go-no-Sen no Kata was indeed associated mainly with Waseda University and was not part of the syllabus at Kodokan Dojo. Kawaishi brought it to Europe.
The interesting thing about Mifune's Nage-Ura no Kata is that it seems designed as a series of counters to much of the standard Nage no Kata.
Look at the first three techniques and you'll see they could be practiced as an elaboration/extension of the first set of Nage no Kata. There are no counters given for the sutemiwaza, of course, and tsurikomigoshi is missing, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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