I hope I'm in the right place.

[Just some guy]

Okay, this is more of a language question but as it pertains to Koryu I thought that this was the right place to ask. I was wondering about the exact meaning of the terms Soke and Shihanke in referance to koryu. This comes up from another thread and I was just wondering for my own information. I ask because it seems that Kashima Shinto Ryu counts its Soke back before the formation of their Ryu (coming to the grand total of 64:eek: ). Though I know that the soke is often the holder of the ryu, does one nessaserily count the first soke as the founder of the ryu? If not, when does one start counting.

[Rob.Boger]

Chris,

According to Karl Friday's book, 'Legacies of the Sword,'

"The Kashima-Shinryû sôke and shihanke lineages date back nearly five hundred years, but the school as a structured organization is a phenomenon of far more recent origin. During its early years the ryûha appears to have had no institutional structure at all, which is one of the reasons that it is so difficult to establish even teacher-student relationships for the first few generations."

"The first, the sôke, or "Founder's House," derives from Matsumoto's student Kunii Kagekiyo, a son of Kagetsugu. This lineage has continued within the Kunii family to the present-day (twenty-first-generation) sôke, Kunii Michiyuki. The second line, the shihanke, or "Instructor's House," separated from the sôke lineage with Kamiizumi and continued for nine generations, until the eighteenth century, when Kunii Taizen received certifications of mastery from both his fater, Yoshinori, and Ono Shigemasa, the eleventh-gernation shihanke, and merged the two lines."


According to the book entitled 'Koryu Bujutsu', as edited by Diane Skoss, it lists the following in the glossary of the text:

Shihanke 'master teacher'
Sôke 'headmaster'

I'm sure other's can give something better if needed and I hope that helps.


Sincerely,
Rob Boger




[Edited by Rob.Boger on 01-20-2001 at 10:47 PM]

[Just some guy]

Mr. Boger,
Thanks for your help, but I'm afraid that this leaves me with the same question about the usage of these two words. As stated in the Kashima Shinto Ryu example, it seems that they count the Soke from the very begining of the Family thought the school itself was not founded until the 1500's, many Centuries later. One again, I was wondering if one need count the Soke from the very foundation of the Ryu or, does this word have a meaning that seems to go beyond the Budo context? If the first Soke need not nesaserily refer to the founder of the who, then who would it be refering to? If the word has a context beyond that of budo, what is said context?

Any one have any thoughts.

[Karl Friday]

"Soke" simply means "main family," and can be used in a wide range of contexts, including arts other than the bugei. In bugei usage, "soke" refers to the founder's house, or to the current heir to the ryuha's formal headship; "shihanke" refers to the designated head instructor, or to a lineage of such instructors. A few traditions, like Kashima-Shinryu, claim dual/parallel lineages stretching way way back; in others shihanke are named in some generations and not in others. Usually (but not always), a shihanke is designated because the titular head of the school is for one reason or another unable to serve as the principal instructor.

Because "soke" refers to the family lineage, as well as the current headmaster, it's possible for some of the names on the list of "soke" to predate the actual ryuha. It's really just a matter of emphasis and choice on the part of the school--emphasizing the family tradition vs. emphasis on a particularly famous "founder".

It's best not to get too hung up on terms of this sort, because (like a good bit of Japanese vocabulary) their usage isn't always consistent and their meanings can be fairly amorphous.

It's also best not to take things like the beginnings of particular ryuha too seriously, since any dates or individuals cited are ultimately fairly arbitrary. The designation of any individual as the founder of a system is really only partly a matter of invention and innovation on the part of the "founder"; it's also a matter of politics and hagiography.

Bugei training and bugei ryuha did not become heavily formalized until the Tokugawa period. Before that, training for most warriors was an ad hoc mixture of learning from dad and your buddies, picking up on experience and inspiration of your own, plus scattered episodes of more structured coaching, sometimes from famous teachers (kind of like the way kids today learn to play basketball).

Obviously the "founders" of the various ryuha learned from someone somewhere, and the people who taught *them* must have learned somewhere too. If you want to, you could therefore trace any "school" back as far as you want, which is exactly what some ryuha do, when they speak of origins in the Heian period and such. When historians assert that ryuha bugei began around the 15th century, they mean that that was the point at which enough of the conventions, practices and traditions we now associate with the phenomenon began to appear to justify identifying the start of something new. Obviously, though, at least *some* of the information that defined the "new" ryuha had to have been around before this period--in fact you can follow that regression all the way back to the cavemen.

[Just some guy]

Thank you Dr Friday. That was exactly what I wanted to know.

[Brently Keen]

Just a minor clarification in case some people reading this thread didn't realize it: Kashima Shinto-ryu and Kashima-Shinryu are two different schools and styles.

I do have a few questions for Dr. Friday:

If my memory serves me right, in "Legacies of the Sword", you mention the Jikishinkage-ryu as a school related to Kashima-Shinryu, I think you mentioned that they share a common ancestry as well as many densho. Is that correct?

Is Jikishinkage-ryu then considered to be a branch of Kashima-Shinryu? Likewise is there any lineal relation between Kashima Shinto-ryu and Kashima-Shinryu and/or Jikishinkage-ryu?

How would you characterize the main differences of these two other schools, compared to Kashima-Shinryu (either in terms of technical emphasis, philosophic distinctives, or historical context)?

Finally, thanks Dr. Friday for taking your time to share with us here on e-budo, your insights are always appreciated and add a lot to the discussions here.

Brently Keen

[Karl Friday]

Kashima-Shinryu and Jikishin-kageryu are both branches of what might be called the "Shinkage-ryu family"--the schools that claim substantial connection to Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami Nobutsuna. This "family" also includes the Shinkage-ryu, Taisha-ryu, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, and a handful of others.

The Kashima-Shinryu and the Kashima Shinto-ryu are not very similar in their contemporary incarnations, although they share some common history. The Kashima-Shinryu
traces its origins to Matsumoto Bizen-no-kami Masamoto and Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami Hidetsugu. The Kashima Shinto-ryu (actually, there are several ryuha by that name, but one that's better known than the others) derives from Tsukahara Bokuden and Iizasa Choisai. In both technique and history, it's much more closely related to the Katori Shinto-ryu than to KSR, and belongs to what some historians call the Shinto-ryu tradition.

There is a great deal of confusion as to the actual relationship that held between the four men cited above, and little prospect of ever clarifying things very well. Different ryuha (and each has connections to several) offer different versions of the story, and even "objective" written texts and documents disagree as to who taught whom (for details, see my discussion in *Legacies of the Sword*). It is likely that there was significant cross-fertilization and influence between the two traditions, given that both developed around the same time in the same area, but they
split off from one another by the mid 1500s and have evolved separately ever since.

Kashima Shinto-ryu lineage is fairly straight-forward. It has been practiced mostly in Kashima village (now Kashima City), under the auspices of the Yoshikawa family. The Kashima-Shinryu's history is more complex. The modern art is the result of the fusing, in the 18th century, of the
Shinkage-ryu tradition (which, according to tradition, was heavily influenced by the Kashima martial tradition) into a system (believed to have originated in Kashima) passed down within the Kunii family in northeastern Japan.

In terms of technique, the most conspicuous difference between KSR and KSTR is that the latter principally manipulates the sword in straight, back-and-forth lines (as does modern Kendo and the majority of Japanese sword traditions), while the former does everything in spirals. A second, immediately apparent difference is that KSTR kata tend to be relatively long and involved, while KSR kata usually consist of just one exchange of techniques.

[Karl Friday]

Oops, somehow this post got uploaded twice--sorry 'bout that!

[Edited by Karl Friday on 01-29-2001 at 03:35 PM]

[Just some guy]

No, By all means Keep writing. I'd love to hear more :) .