Sunuke bokken

[jezah81]

Hi guys,

Does anyone here have any experience with sunuke bokken and if they are suitable for contact work? How does this wood compare with Japanese white oak bokken. I have just received my sunuke bokken today, and I would like to know if I should leave the contact work for my shirokashi bokken or if I can also use the sunuke bokken for contact work as well?

Kind regards,

Jeremy Hagop

[Brian Owens]

I can't access the site right now (I'm at work, and that site is locked out), but if I recall, www.bokkenshop.com has a page that describes bokken of different types of wood and rates them for suitablility for contact work, suburi, and "collectability."

I'll check it when I get home, just to be sure I'm thinking of the right site.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jeremy, the short answer is that your sunuke bokken's durability will depend on the age of the tree it came from. I had one many years ago that I absolutely loved, but it "disappeared" while I was in the restroom one day. I ordered another one, but it had a nasty tendency to splinter, & I ended up sending it back. Some research showed that older trees have a tighter grain & are completely dried without any treatment, while the younger trees usually get a chemical treatment to dry them out. No way to tell in advance as even the vendors don't know.

I went through several white oak & one hickory bokken before Kim Taylor made me a wonderfully-customized bokken & kodachi made from layers of pau ferro, purpleheart, & ash. Toughest damn things I've ever seen! I've been using the bokken several times each week in both MJER & SMR jodo (lots of contact!), & there's not the slightest sign of a dent.

Your sunuke bokken shouldn't need a lot of tender care, Jeremy, just a bit of oil now & then when the wood feels dry. I don't remember ever having to sand mine. I would guess the toughness is about equal to hickory - I have a friend who has a sunuke mallet/hammer - & maybe a bit tougher than white oak. I have a list of 321 woods with their hardnesses, but sunuke isn't one of them, so I'm doing some guessing here, but you should be able to do just about any contact work short of actually cutting something :D.

[Brian Owens]

...if I recall, www.bokkenshop.com has a page that describes bokken of different types of wood and rates them...
Yep, they do.

They list 10 different types of wood on their standard and deluxe lines, which are all of similar size and shape.

I've attached a chart showing their ratings for the woods.

Note that they don't carry bokken of ash, hickory, etc., so you'll need to do some research for other woods.

Also, the kind of wood is only one factor. The size, shape, weight, etc. can be even more important.

BokkenShop make what they call "Stylized Bokken" copied after prototypical swords of various ryu or well-known swordsmen.

I've created a second chart based on 10 of these that are made of the same wood -- white oak -- and as their ratings range indicates, shape is a more important factor than the type of wood.

HTH.

[Brian Owens]

Rats! I left sunuke off my chart!

BokkenShop rates it a 3 out of 5 for contact, but a 5 for suburi due to its weight, and a 5 for appreciation due to the lovely color and texture of the wood.

[Lance Gatling]

I've never quite understood this mindset.

Wooden swords are consumables; use accordingly. Save the pretty ones for non-contact kata. I reckon you should be able to pick up anything and swing it with equal aplomb.

You break my bokken in practice, I won't be upset, I'll be impressed.....

[Maro]

Hi Jeremy,

I use a Sunuke bokken as it's heavier than white/red oak and feels nice (It looks it too!).

They compress slightly more easily than the above - it's pretty much up to you if you want to dent it.

They will dent white oak easily as well - if you use them for contact, it should be like-on-like.

[renfield_kuroda]

In general you probably should avoid contact with wooden weapons of different woods. For example sunuke vs. akagashi would be just plain unfair -- the sunuke would destroy the akagashi and hardly take a dent.
Heck, we don't even allow shirokashi vs. akagashi because it's too unequal.

Ultimately you should use whatever your sensei/ryuha recommends.

I believe at least one branch of Hokushinittoryu in Tokyo uses sunuke exclusively (also I believe they are made to Soke's spec, but I'm not sure about that.)

Regards,

r e n

[Lance Gatling]

Every single weapons ryu I've joined in Japan looks for one thing - white oak or not. Never seen any that had some sort of weirdo wood requirement.

Supposedly red oak tends to break evenly with the grain, and can possibly break. White oak supposedly tends to splinter scross the same sort of grain, so if your bokken gets smacked, if white (Japanese?) oak, it splinters but stays attached - the cheaper red and pine, etc., supposedly splits on the grain and flies away.

Having said all that, most weapons kata I see is typically tap-tap - no real muscle behind it. So, the discussion is arguably moot, but,,,,,,, This is Japan.

[Josh Reyer]

Every single weapons ryu I've joined in Japan looks for one thing - white oak or not. Never seen any that had some sort of weirdo wood requirement.


The Yagyu-kai uses biwa (locquat) wood. I'm told that, being a soft wood, it will dent but not not break. But then, bokuto are not frequently used except for Empi-no-tachi, and Empi-no-tachi is not an especially high-impact kata, relative to those in other ryuha...

[jlyall]

I have been told that Japanese white oak is particularly desirable not just for its sturdiness, but also because it doesn't have any allergens in it. If it does splinter or come into contact with skin there will be no extra medical problems on top of the scrapes or bruising.

I know somebody who has to avoid touching Purple Heart as it causes him to break out into a rash. I also gather that some red oaks can potentailly cause issues if a splinter gets under the skin.

Beyond that my knowledge is limited.

[Josh Reyer]

I should add that biwa could probably be considered a "weird wood", in that almost every other ryuha avoids it as being dangerous if it causes an injury.

[Lance Gatling]

I should add that biwa could probably be considered a "weird wood", in that almost every other ryuha avoids it as being dangerous if it causes an injury.
Aaahhh, a secret weird, poisoned death wood! There's probably money to be made selling such to ninjer wannabes.....:nin:

[jezah81]

hey guys,

I just received my sunuke bokken from bokkenshop.com aka Tozando, and I must say, its a very beautiful looking weapon. It came with a very smooth finish to it, but I sanded it down with fine grit sandpaper and applied some raw linseed oil to it with a cotton cloth. Is there anything else i should do to it before I start my training??

Kind regards,

Jeremy Hagop

[DDATFUS]

I should add that biwa could probably be considered a "weird wood", in that almost every other ryuha avoids it as being dangerous if it causes an injury.

Apparently there is an old Japanese superstition that if you have a bone broken by a blow from a piece of biwa wood, the bone will develop cancer. I've held my sensei's biwa wood bokken before and thought that they were excellently balanced; I've added a biwa bokken of the Yagyu style to the list of training implements I want to acquire in the future.

[Ellis Amdur]

Biwa dents - a lot. Not good for partner practice. Same with sunuke.
Best

[DDATFUS]

Biwa dents - a lot. Not good for partner practice. Same with sunuke.
Best

Yeah, but seriously, Ellis, balance a minor flaw like denting against a major benefit like giving your training partner bone cancer! Who could resist an opportunity like that?

Or maybe my senpai are just more obnoxious than most :D

[kokumo]

Supposedly red oak tends to break evenly with the grain, and can possibly break. White oak supposedly tends to splinter scross the same sort of grain, so if your bokken gets smacked, if white (Japanese?) oak, it splinters but stays attached - the cheaper red and pine, etc., supposedly splits on the grain and flies away.

Not having broken and genuine red oak weapons, I don't know about that, but I've broken several white oak jo; in every case, the jo cracked across the grain without breaking through at the time of impact.

And I've seen some of the faux red oak do exactly what you describe, to which I would only add "flies away spinning." It's a wonder nobody lost an eye....

Best,

Fred Little

[Lance Gatling]

Not having broken and genuine red oak weapons, I don't know about that, but I've broken several white oak jo; in every case, the jo cracked across the grain without breaking through at the time of impact.

And I've seen some of the faux red oak do exactly what you describe, to which I would only add "flies away spinning." It's a wonder nobody lost an eye....

Best,

Fred Little
So, my mother was right all the time!
:eek: 'YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT WITH THAT THING!!!!'

The 'faux' red oak crap seems often to be pine or other softwoods painted red, outright dangerous. Decent white oak is cheap and beautiful - oil it or stain it w/ slightly colored oil, the grain shows up great.