Firearms-Is it Truly a Martial Art?

[Richard Scardina]

Given the varying definitions of martial art, could firearms be a martial art weapon needing the same diciplines as un-armed/traditional martial arts?

[Juan Perez]

Given the varying definitions of martial art, could firearms be a martial art weapon needing the same diciplines as un-armed/traditional martial arts?

This is going to be another one of those long threads. But, maybe it does not have to be. Your answer is in your question. Given the varying definitions of "martial art", yes, [proper] firearms [use] "could" be a martial art needing the same disciplines as unarmed/traditional martial arts. Or, a firearm could be considered a martial arts weapon. I guess the length of the discussion to follow might focus on "should" it be considered that way. In the case of most of my fellow work mates, firearms are a tool. We don't treat it as our "soul" or something like that (as a nihon-to might be treated, I guess).

[Richard Scardina]

Though a thread may seem as
one of those long threads", it, like any other, is a rhetorical exchange of what a forum is for.

Martial arts, as with its string of ancroynms, terminology, etc., seem to create curiousity and discussion of many sorts.

[Duanew]

I think if you look into history the Japanese did in fact make it a martial art. I know Jeff Hall has devised a martial art around the pistol.

Duane

[Duanew]

Here is the article:
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1759789-P1-Exclusive-Hojutsu-Ryu-the-martial-art-of-shooting/

Duane Wolfe

[George Kohler]

I don't like the term "art" especially when referring to modern military disciplines. IMO it should be referred as martial (or military) "techniques."

[Juan Perez]

Though a thread may seem as
one of those long threads", it, like any other, is a rhetorical exchange of what a forum is for.

Martial arts, as with its string of ancroynms, terminology, etc., seem to create curiousity and discussion of many sorts.

It does indeed seem to create curiosity in some. I hope you find your answers in this thread then.

[DDATFUS]

I don't like the term "art" especially when referring to modern military disciplines. IMO it should be referred as martial (or military) "techniques."

A hoplologist that I know described what the bushi practiced in the 1400's and 1500's as "martial training" or "martial disciplines" and described what those same arts became in the peaceful 1600-1800's as "martial arts." Based on that, I would label modern military and police training as a martial practice/training/discipline, but would consider referring to other gun-based activities as martial arts. I've seen some competitive shooting events, for example, that seem to have a large following but not to be directly linked to any military/police application. Folks who train with guns with the specific goal of excelling at those competitions rather than with the specific goal of using the gun for combat might have some interesting parallels with the practitioners of certain martial arts that have a meditative or sporting rather than combative focus.

[Richard Scardina]

A hoplologist that I know described what the bushi practiced in the 1400's and 1500's as "martial training" or "martial disciplines" and described what those same arts became in the peaceful 1600-1800's as "martial arts." Based on that, I would label modern military and police training as a martial practice/training/discipline, but would consider referring to other gun-based activities as martial arts. I've seen some competitive shooting events, for example, that seem to have a large following but not to be directly linked to any military/police application. Folks who train with guns with the specific goal of excelling at those competitions rather than with the specific goal of using the gun for combat might have some interesting parallels with the practitioners of certain martial arts that have a meditative or sporting rather than combative focus.

Hmmmn, but many other virtues of martial arts are not restricted to etuher way.

[Juan Perez]

Hmmmn, but many other virtues of martial arts are not restricted to etuher way.

Sir, what is your personal opinion on this matter? I'm referring to the original premise of your question that initiated this thread.

[Richard Scardina]

Well, to some, firearms is a modern implement wheras it did have martial art relation via one particualr Samurai period.

I would have to say that anything given the discipline study of defense could almost be a martial art.

[Bod]

This is not so different from the "Is snooker/billiards a sport or a game?" debate.

Snooker needs a certain amount of physical skill, but a lot of that skill is quite refined rather than energetic, like football say.

Games generally need little gross physical ability whereas sports do.

Some shooting "arts" such as the cross country skiing and shooting sport, involve more physical activity than others. Is that more like a martial art than shooting in a range? You might have to argue that it isn't since the sport is more about hunting game.

Still, you raised a good question.

[Hissho]

Here is the article:
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1759789-P1-Exclusive-Hojutsu-Ryu-the-martial-art-of-shooting/

Duane Wolfe


He forgets to mention the "insulting the memory of slain police officers during shooting AARs," as well as one or two off range, drunken live fire events he has participated in - but perhaps that's not part of the "Hojutsu Ryu" curriculum.

[poryu]

HI

Morishige Ryu is still in existence today and they are a Japanese gun school

see them here

http://zaitetstu16.seesaa.net/article/94030475.html

[Richard Scardina]

HI

Morishige Ryu is still in existence today and they are a Japanese gun school

see them here

http://zaitetstu16.seesaa.net/article/94030475.html

So, it is a martial art in many virtues....

[tgace]

Take a look at handgun CQB and how it needs to be incorporated with H2H techniques and there is little doubt that firearms can be incorporated into what we call "martial arts". As was said upthread, it would be interesting to compare IPSC shooters to "artists" to combat shooters...

[CHRISTIN]

I say that shooting IS a martial arts skill, and a student can achieve and eventually master the mechanics of its discipline or in simpler terms, putting the bullet exactly where you want it. Beyond that, one must combine these shooting mechanics with the zen aspect of a proper mindset.

It's sort of hard to explain, but when I was shooting competitive "action" pistol, I rose from a beginner class to the higher levels and then reached an impasse... and I remained in this "rut" for an uncomfortably long period of time.

A GrandMaster shooter broke me out of this "rut" by using a zen style teaching approach and I went beyond the "mechanical" or "muscle" skills and started to use my mind... my inner spirit in conjunction with the skills that I had. It worked... my shooting grew faster in speed of shot placement and remained highly accurate. Everything "flowed"... it felt right.

[Richard Scardina]

But, is shooting a actual acquired skill that anyone can achieve? It would seem that it requires hand/eye coordination, like someone who can sketch and paint.

[JS3]

But, is shooting a actual acquired skill that anyone can achieve? It would seem that it requires hand/eye coordination, like someone who can sketch and paint.

I would say absolutely.
Just like anyone can learn to sketch and paint, but not everyone can be a Rembrandt.

[Richard Scardina]

I would say absolutely.
Just like anyone can learn to sketch and paint, but not everyone can be a Rembrandt.

Yes. Just like some of my past martial art classmates and students. Some couldn't do certain methods/moves, whereas others could do. But the beauty of martial arts is within the variety of styles to have one adapt and deveop.

[PiersonJ]

Hmm, if I may contribute to the topic at hand with very little knowledge about shooting, firearms, and the like.
There are japanese arts that made the cumbersome tanegashima and arquebus into martial techniques with a bayonet and like. But that was to overcome the relative slow fire rate (loading one took a while). Or perhaps it was with WW2 style guns...
Regardless, the martial technique was to overcome a lacking in the weapon, where a sword lacks long distance range, a gun or bow will exceed, but styles of swordsmanship taught getting the most distance out of the sword. Every centimeter counted.
The sword, though, fares far better in melee than a single-shot rifle. But that doesn't discount the ability to stab with a bayonet or club someone who catches you bulletless.

How that relates to modern martial techniques is that today we have handguns that can blow big chunks out of you over and over again (at least, that's what Hollywood tells me). The only downside, in the off chance your shooting sucks so badly that someone can get in close, or ninja you, you can only crack them in the head with the grip or the barrel.
I think, in modern terms, we've forgotten about the fact that the body can universally identify with anything we put in our hands. I'm sure we could very well instill techniques into gunplay that turn an unloaded gun (or if you're not trying to splatter someone's brains) into a viable melee weapon.

I feel naive in saying so, but a gun could adopt some jutte techniques. Overall though, I feel that nothing is truly martial until it involves the entirety of the mind, body (and soul).

As Christin said, incorporating a Zen approach to shooting can surpass mechanical technique, but shooting alone isn't enough, I feel. Perhaps add methods of movement that protect a practitioner's vital organs without constraining them to the life of a Yogic Buddhist Monk.

Only then, I feel, that a gun could reach the same martial artistic heights as the sword has reached.

But, what do I know? I've only held a loaded hunting rifle (mistakenly thinking it was a toy) pointed it at a friend and wondered why they were freaking out. :laugh:
I'm too pretty for jail.

[Hissho]

Facing a lethal threat certainly does involve the entirety of mind, body and soul. I think that sometimes gets missed in the martial arts, because by and large what used to be the province of men who actually lived and died by their training are now practiced as martial hobbies, competitive sports, or spiritual pursuits (or some combination of the above) removed from that environment.

PiersonJ makes a good point, actually. In many ways, especially at close quarters, and particularly in the contact distance encounters he talks about, skill at empty hand, and skill in using a handgun at contact distance (involving all sorts of manipulation, malfunction clearances, and positional shooting issues) is as much an involved martial art as any armed jujutsu system is/was.

In fact, some of the techniques are the same. Some are almost, but the presence of a (functioning) hand held projectile weapon, versus a bladed weapon, makes a critical difference.

[Trevor Johnson]

My impression of arquebus and musket is that they did a LOT of damage when they hit; they had rather large ammunition. The problem was that their accuracy and rate of fire were lacking. And every army that had them did intensive drilling to minimize the latter, and used volume of fire to deal with the former. Only the muskets tended to be used clubbed, though. Arquebus were rather delicate, so were rifles. Muskets were pretty sturdy.

A lot of people talk about the mind-body aspect while aiming, but while loading, I think it might be jutsu more than do, there.

[Toptomcat]

They need discipline, but not nearly of the same sort.

[D.S. Brown]

My iaido instructor feels that the best book he has ever read about iaido was Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner." It is a small book written by the aforementioned border patrolman. It is nothing short of a treatise on gunfighting and mindset and surviving lethal encounters.

Another book that I have read that takes a martial approach to gun fighting is "The Armed Option. Zen in the Art of Combat Pistolcraft." Fantastic book!

I have trained in handguns for over 20 years. I would say with confidence that my shooting of handguns is just as much a martial art as the iaido I practice. I see the two as being similar, in that both require a presentation of a weapon to deliver a cut/shot. The intent being the defeat of an adversary intent on killing me/you.

Best,

Dave

[Richard Scardina]

My iaido instructor feels that the best book he has ever read about iaido was Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner." It is a small book written by the aforementioned border patrolman. It is nothing short of a treatise on gunfighting and mindset and surviving lethal encounters.

Another book that I have read that takes a martial approach to gun fighting is "The Armed Option. Zen in the Art of Combat Pistolcraft." Fantastic book!

I have trained in handguns for over 20 years. I would say with confidence that my shooting of handguns is just as much a martial art as the iaido I practice. I see the two as being similar, in that both require a presentation of a weapon to deliver a cut/shot. The intent being the defeat of an adversary intent on killing me/you.

Best,

Dave


Or the "Zen" of staying focused, ease the trigger, and hit the target