Musashi & Tachi & Kodachi

[Usagi San]

In Musashi' style there are only a few kata that use both tachi and kodachi. I think that much I already learned here, BUT my question is:
Is there any "proof" of other prior kenjutsu style that uses both swords in their curriculum?
Thank you


Joaquim Coelho

[Josh Reyer]

Even if you don't believe that the ryoto kata of Katori Shinto-ryu predate Musashi, the Empi scroll of Shinkage-ryu, given to Yagyu Munetoshi in 1566 roughly 18 years before Musashi was even born, contains illustrations of ryoto/nito technique. There are also illustrations showing ryoto/nito technique in the mokuroku Munetoshi gave Konparu Shichiro in 1601, when Musashi was but a teenager. Munetoshi also wrote Kamiizumi Hidetsuna's name before his own on the mokuroku, indicating that the kata illustrated therein came from Kamiizumi, not Munetoshi's own innovations. Kamiizumi died before Musashi was born.

[Usagi San]

I had no idea. There are all sorts of myths going around about Musashi and how he was the first to use both swords, etc. Well, as they say in some South Park episodes: I learned something today.
Thanks a lot.

[yoj]

My impression is that Musashi was a bit like Bruce Lee, an innovator in approach and philosophy, but not really doing things that were new, just doing things differently. However, there are those on the board with a much better take on this.

[Bill Sampson]

Joaquim Coelho

I suggest you get a copy of The Lone Samurai: The Life of Miyamoto Musashi by William Scott Wilson (ISBN 4-7700-2942-X) for a reference in English. On page 28 William says that Munisai (Musashi's father also refereed to as Muni) was a master of several martial arts including the Two-sword style.

See also the research work of Budo scholar Dr. Uozumi Takashi (International Budo University in Chiba Prefecture who has written extensively on Musashi. Most of his work is in Japanese but you might find some translated essays into English by Steven Harwood) Uozumi writes that Muni Miyamoto (Musashi’s adoptive father) developed a method of swordsmanship that utilized two swords and this was cataloged in the mokuroku of his Ryu, the Tori-Ryu (no longer extant, but Tori-Ryu mokuroku still are). Muni existed in a remote area of Hideyoshi’s domain and Tori-Ryu never did flourish. But Muni did have an influential role to play in other Ryu-ha such as the Take no Uchi Ryu.

It’s interesting to note that Mushashi’s first Ryu-Ha that he created was not Niten Ichi-Ryu but Enmei-Ryu (円明流) on which he wrote a treaties (while in his mid twenties around 1604) called Heidokyo which addresses fundamental issues such as psychological and physiological aspects of combat, it details the nine kata of the school, and the use of the shuriken. I am not sure if the kata described are based on one or two swords. Perhaps other's might know.

Or see the Bugei Ryu Ha Dai Jiten (a Japanese language only source) and you might find references to other schools that used two swords, or had it in their curriculum.

Collin Hyakutake, a moderator on E-Budo and well known exponent of Niten Ichi-Ryu might be able to offer more exacting details of Mushashi’s background as far as his father’s influence on his martial thinking as well as to other schools or historical figures that used two swords.

Peace

[Usagi San]

Gentlemen (Josh and Bill):
I didn't expect this much really. You gave me considerable information (AND also reading sugestions). Thanks a lot.
Apart from Yoshikawa's novel, which I know it's pretty much fiction, and the gorin no sho, I only read parts of Tokitsu sensei's book on Musashi, but it's one of those books that I felt like it was not "more of the same".
The Lone Samurai by William Scott Wilson just entered my wish list.
Again, thank you.

P.S.: Forgot to say this in my first post: english is not (as you might already have noticed) my first language so please forgive some eventual mizzppelings :D.

[nico storm]

I think Kenji Tokitsu does a good job of exploring some of the various myths and surrounding influences over Musashi, and has been the most useful resource I have found so far (certainly as a non-japanese reader) along with discussions with my teacher.

[Usagi San]

That's certainly an important statement and what's more coming from a Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu practicioner.
I remember he says that Musashi was (most probably) left-handed and that he used the kodachi as a throwing weapon. That was the first (and I guess the only) time I ever read such thing about him.
Funny thing is I don't see great entusiasm around that book. Tokitsu sensei as been writing about martial arts for what?... more then 20 years, I'm sure... maybe even 30.
Have you ever read his writings about the life of Takano Sasaburo and Naito Takaharu?

[ScottUK]

I think I like Tokitsu's non-commital way of presenting facts, whether mainstream or not. "This source conflicts with that, but this source blah blah so I leave it to the reader to choose". You know the drill...

To the OP - I think Josh has answered your question? Musashi certainly is the most famous nito-waza-chappie, but he certainly wasn't the first...

[Andrew S]

Musashi wasn't even the first in his family to use two-sword applications. Apparently his grandfather also used two swords (or possibly a katana and jutte combination).

[ScottUK]

Add to that: no-one is really sure if Munisai (Tori-ryu) was MM's father or grandfather!

[Usagi San]

Add to that: no-one is really sure if Munisai (Tori-ryu) was MM's father or grandfather!

Sh!t, I read somewhere Munisai was his... uncle?
But wasn't the grandfather called Hirata Shôkan and the founder of Tôri-ryû????
Oh man, what a mess :D.

[Joshua]

The grandfather of Miyamoto musashi was: Miyamoto musashi no kami yoshimoto,
His son is Miyamoto Munisai the father of the famous Miyamoto Musashi

Miyamoto Munisai studied the Enmei Ryu and from this he created another martial art school the Tori Ryu,
With his own style of nito-ken:) and also the jitte:)

[nico storm]

The grandfather of Miyamoto musashi was: Miyamoto musashi no kami yoshimoto, His son is Miyamoto Munisai the father of the famous Miyamoto Musashi. Miyamoto Munisai studied the Enmei Ryu and from this he created another martial art school the Tori Ryu, With his own style of nito-ken:) and also the jitte:)

I think this was suggested in the "Classical Weaponry of Japan" book by Serge Mol. But the thing I get from the different readings is that the records about Musashi's family are very sketchy at best (at least the translations) and even contridictory, so its hard to make any definitive statements.

[Black and Blue]

Musashi wasn't even the first in his family to use two-sword applications. Apparently his grandfather also used two swords (or possibly a katana and jutte combination).

Good point, and as a point of common sense, probably every good swordsman had at least a basic working knowledge of using this combination (tachi,kodachi) though not as refined as in a ryu.
I know I would.

Phil Scudieri

[Usagi San]

Funny how this things happen. I was reading an old kendo-world magazine (vol 1 number 2, 2002) and it has a big article about Musashi, writen by Professor Takashi Uozumi from IBU, and he seems to be of the opinion that Miyamoto Muni was MM adoptive father. Oh my.
Again, what an enormous genealogic mess :confused:.

[Bill Sampson]

Funny how this things happen. I was reading an old kendo-world magazine (vol 1 number 2, 2002) and it has a big article about Musashi, writen by Professor Takashi Uozumi from IBU, and he seems to be of the opinion that Miyamoto Muni was MM adoptive father. Oh my.
Again, what an enormous genealogic mess :confused:.

The problem with Musashi is that he is a bit popular. He has been written about in books and magazines, portrayed in movies, and idolized by martial arts aficionados and power tie wearing managers in every kind of business out there. Without surprise, there is a lot of information out there about Musashi that ranges from good to bad. Even the research done in modern Japanese is translated from old Japanese, and then the foreign language stuff can be several generations of translation later. I understand that the original text of Go Rin no Sho has a couple pages missing. I read somewhere when I was living in Japan that Imai Sensei felt that Musashi’s writings were very complicated and difficult to understand.

I have a copy of a translation done by the Nihon Services Corporation called “The Book of Five Rings: The Real Art of Japanese Management”. Published in 1982, the founder of Nihon Services Corporation was Bradford J. Brown; lawyer, Zen student, and Shorinji Kempo player. This isn’t one of the Musashi books I would recommend… Maybe one to avoid actually… but a good example of how Musashi has been commercialized.

Dr. Uozumi’s academic specialty is in Ethics and Japanese Thought. I do not know if he is a Koryu practitioner or if so if he is a member of the Nito Ichi Ryu. Perhaps someone here does know. I find though that his research is very academic, whereas some other writer’s research is less stringent and aimed at a more general reader. Personally, I like his work. But then, Musashi’s writings can be interpreted in any number of ways, and I am sure that Lawyers would have a different interpretation than perhaps a member of his Ryu would then would an academic researcher.

For the sake of the post here, I think Musashi will always be known in the Budo community as the guy who refined fighting with two swords. Personally, I think he must have had some very strong forearms.

If I can take the thread in a little bit different direction at this point here…

I have read a lot of books about Musashi’s life, and the general feeling I get from all of them, is that the guy was a bit of loner. Sure, at times he had students, and he eventually adopted a son to inherit his school. But he is portrayed, even as a teenager as being a loner. So, Koryu Bujutsu kata these days are done largely in pairs. Musashi must have spent a lot of time training solo, and I wonder if his focus was iai type practice or if he was a master of creative visualization type of training, or did he spend his time beating a wooden sword against trees.

Does anyone have an opinion on how Musashi spent his training time and how trained when he was developing his techniques? Perhaps it changed over time.

Thanks.

[hyaku]

For the sake of the post here, I think Musashi will always be known in the Budo community as the guy who refined fighting with two swords. Personally, I think he must have had some very strong forearms.

If I can take the thread in a little bit different direction at this point here…

I have read a lot of books about Musashi’s life, and the general feeling I get from all of them, is that the guy was a bit of loner. Sure, at times he had students, and he eventually adopted a son to inherit his school. But he is portrayed, even as a teenager as being a loner. So, Koryu Bujutsu kata these days are done largely in pairs. Musashi must have spent a lot of time training solo, and I wonder if his focus was iai type practice or if he was a master of creative visualization type of training, or did he spend his time beating a wooden sword against trees.

Does anyone have an opinion on how Musashi spent his training time and how trained when he was developing his techniques? Perhaps it changed over time.

Thanks.

Well as the moderator and till death do us part HNIR practitioner I suppose I better put in a few yens worth

Forearms are needed to stop the weapon. We cut with projection of hara. No Hara no waza. Flexibility and big movements are needed for cuts, not muscles.

I used to get together with one or "both Soke" a few time a week tp practice and get my butt kicked on what I needed to do to improve. I then got back in my own Dojo 'On my own' and work on it. Morrors help but not entirely necessary. I would agree with you that creative visualization is the key. Then on my next visit to Soke he generally would compliment me on an improvment and he could see I had worked on things. Has it changed? Yes, each soke has his own slightly different outlook on things but the fundamentals don't change. Looking at some they definately have not managed to remove other arts they have done. Also should we do lots of real fundamentals or hold on to the many waza, Its Soke's choice.

[Teebo]

In Musashi' style there are only a few kata that use both tachi and kodachi. I think that much I already learned here, BUT my question is:
Is there any "proof" of other prior kenjutsu style that uses both swords in their curriculum?
Thank you

Joaquim Coelho


In his book "Katori Shinto-ryu, Warrior Tradition", Risuke Otake (head of a Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryuha) presents photo series of the ryu's 4 ryoto-kata, stating that the art of using ryoto (tachi + kodachi) was indeed part of the TSKSR corriculum 150-200 years prior to Musashi Myamoto's birth. The techniques are still being taught.
(The book is available via Koryu books - www.koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com).)

edit: Demonstration of the kata by Otake's dojo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVh2B3n1i0

[ScottUK]

Teebo,

As Josh says:Even if you don't believe that the ryoto kata of Katori Shinto-ryu predate MusashiNot everyone believes that the entire TSKSR curriculum has the, er, same age - putting it politely. ;)

[Josh Reyer]

Just to be clear, I do believe the ryoto forms in TSKSR predate Musashi, and I would hazard that if some of TSKSR's original densho were made public, it would be proven clearly. I merely framed my response under the assumption that the most rigorous standard of proof would be required -- dated documentation, and that without that TSKSR's ryoto kata would not be "proven" to be before Musashi.

[ScottUK]

Don't worry, Josh - I don't think anyone read more into your comment than was actually there. :)

[Teebo]

(...) I merely framed my response under the assumption that the most rigorous standard of proof would be required -- dated documentation, and that without that[,] TSKSR's ryoto kata would not be "proven" to be before Musashi.

Thanks - so very true.
I didn't quite read that "proof" in the original post as "hard evidence" as I should have. My reference really requires one to "just" trust Risuke Otake on his word without seeing the original documentation, which really isn't the same as proof. Those documents probably won't be made public, I guess their contents are quite secret to anyone but the highly trained in TSKSR?
So to correct my statement, I should present it as a claim supporting that there were kenjutsu styles before Miyamoto containing nito.

By the way Josh, interesting to hear about documented nito in other schools.

[hyaku]

Well a chance for a shameless plug!

Kim Taylor Sensei of Guelph, Canada has just finished an excellent translation of Gorin No Sho. Excellent because not only is he an Iaido, Jo Yudansha but also a member of H.N.I.R. For the first time ever an 'insider' who can read Gorin No Sho and see it for what it is. To my understanding the translation along with photographs and video will be in DVD form.

[Josh Reyer]

Great news, Colin. I wasn't aware Kim Taylor had that level of Japanese!

[T. J.]

Is it a translation from modern Japanese or from the original text?

Not to slight anyone here, but why is there a need for yet another translation at all? There are one or two decent translations out there (bad one's too), so what did they miss that another translation can provide?

[drosera99]

Not to slight anyone here, but why is there a need for yet another translation at all? There are one or two decent translations out there (bad one's too), so what did they miss that another translation can provide?

To my knowledge, none of the other translators were Niten Ichi-ryu practitioners. Both Mr. Kim and Mr. Hyakutake are exponents of the martial tradition founded by Miyamoto Musashi. IMHO, that puts them in a far better position to really understand Gorin no Sho.

[Ron Beaubien]

Uozumi Takashi sensei of International Budo University did a lot of research on Gorin no Sho 10 years ago.

His research mentioned that the Hosokawa version of the document had over 40 missing characters making it quite difficult to understand.

He also clarified that the incomplete and incorrect modern print version of the document (on which all translations have been based) had omissions in four other sections for a total of 75 characters and over 20 misprints as well.

He said it was necessary to compare many handwritten Edo period copies of the text to gain a more accurate understanding of it.

Was there any attempt to work with a variety of primary sources as was recommended to produce a high quality translation?

If so, then my money is on the way!

Regards,

Ron

[Kim Taylor]

Folks just to clarify, there are indeed many many translations out there and I would not be doing this at all except that the project started around 10 years ago as an iaido-l project, and I have an obligation to finish it.

The translation is not from original handwritten sources or anything remotely as academic as that although many Japanese sources were used for the project. It is not translated by me but by a student of mine and I then edited that translation so don't look for anything earth-shattering in the translation. Going by the 5 or 6 other english translations I own we have come up with nothing shocking.

What may make this different from other translations is that Colin is now reading it and doing whatever commentary, history and introduction he wishes. For my part I edited the translation as I said, and I have made a few comments on the text. These are my own understandings of the text, not those of Musashi but they were requested and I have provided them. In order to complete the explanations I need to do photos and videos.

Colin seems happy with the translation so far as he's read, so I'm happy with it as well. My qualifications? Absolutely not academic, I don't read Japanese, I don't live in Japan, I don't etc etc...

I have studied Niten Ichiryu since the early '90s, have written a manual that is used by many of the current students of the art, and have some training in iaido and jodo as well. I have come by whatever understanding of the art I have through the kata themselves and from my training with many high-ranking instructors who know much more than I.

At the bottom line though, I owe 100 folks copies of this book so I'll deliver them, beyond that I'm not too concerned, as has been pointed out there are lots of translations and many academics who have written about Musashi so there isn't much reason for others to be concerned with this project.

Kim Taylor.

[ScottUK]

I look forward to reading it. Save me a copy, KT...

[Ookami7]

Would be interested in a copy too if don`t mind. Please throw my name on to the list! :D Good luck and look forward to seeing it.

[Ron Beaubien]

Kim,

Folks just to clarify, there are indeed many many translations out there and I would not be doing this at all except that the project started around 10 years ago as an iaido-l project, and I have an obligation to finish it.

I had forgotten all about that project.

I think it is really great that you have carried through on it even after all of these years.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

[Martyn van Halm]

As I understand from my instructors, the kodachi was always worn, even when the tachi wasn't - there are a few techniques within TSKSR during naginata kata where you rely on having the kodachi as back-up weapon.

The TSKSR ryoto kata specify the tachi in the right hand and the kodachi in the left, where the object is often to use the kodachi to lead or distract and the tachi to finish - often with swift changes like an underhand cut with the kodachi followed immediately with an overhand cut with the tachi.

The TSKSR gokui no kodachi kata have the kodachi in the right hand and rely heavily on the footwork to close in on the opponent and attack vital areas like the throat or the armpit.