Board Breaking

[Richard Scardina]

Is practicing board breaking to penetrate armor a myth?

[samertz]

I think this is a myth. However board breaking does have some positive aspects to it. It does teach follow through and how to strike past or through targets. On that same note, there are so many tricks in place these days so that people can do breaking it kind of takes away from any real value on breaking itself.

Practicing board breaking to break armor. I have to say that's a myth. Hands vs. metal rarely ever goes in the favor of the hand.

[Richard Scardina]

Thank you for your reply post.

From reading the words of By Kancho Oyama on Tameshiwari;

" However, when considering the Karate boom around the world, I am forced to admit that Tameshiwari has played a large part in making Karate popular, as Tameshiwari generally seems very attractive to people. When the Korean War broke out in 1950, a Karate exhibition was held to which many foreign personal of the Armed Forces were invited. They were not at all interested in Kata and Kumite demonstrations but when Tameshiwari was performed, the hall became as quite as still water. They were fascinated by the performances, and thunder this applause arose over the hall."

I would think that this practice grew out of the way Krate started to incoroporate such action for attention.

Was most armor small pieces of plated metal instead of a type of wood?

That said, are there any references that prove or disprove that board break was to be used to break armor?

[samertz]

The armor of the area is mostly all iron. A lot of the older armor is actually an iron under suit, with a lacquered iron over suit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ō-yoroi

Good stuff on wikipedia about armor construction that old karate guys would be up against. I think the fact that the uniforms were metal pretty much makes this into a myth.

A lot of stories like this are really just something put out to justify why someone was doing something with little to no actual fact base to it. Sadly Okinawan karate has a lot of these types of myths that in reality are just not possible.

[Richard Scardina]

does anyone have any boof references on this?
From the likes of Patrick McCarthy, Mark Bishop, etc.?

[Joseph Svinth]

Board breaking has been around for a very long time. Follow the circus.

Jack Dempsey used to break boards, too. Rough-cut 2x12s, back in the day when the boards were clear Doug fir, and a legitimate 2". He'd break them hanging.

Lots of web sites, books, and museum catalogues on Japanese armor construction. However, a question. If karate was developed for the use of unarmed Okinawa, why were they worried about breaking armor? Remember, if everybody is unarmed, then there is no armor.

In other words, you're listening to multiple invented traditions.

[Richard Scardina]

Board breaking has been around for a very long time. Follow the circus.

Jack Dempsey used to break boards, too. Rough-cut 2x12s, back in the day when the boards were clear Doug fir, and a legitimate 2". He'd break them hanging.

Lots of web sites, books, and museum catalogues on Japanese armor construction. However, a question. If karate was developed for the use of unarmed Okinawa, why were they worried about breaking armor? Remember, if everybody is unarmed, then there is no armor.

In other words, you're listening to multiple invented traditions.

Thank you for your post.

Good response.

However, to some, Karate was not merely developed as a unarmed method of defense, as Karateka did practice with weapons.

The best response and/or logical thought, is to study armor and realised that breaking wood is not the same as penetrating metal armor. Another logic course would be, if they wanted to penetrate armor, why were'nt they practicing punching to penetrate a metal?

I still would like to see references on this myth written by reputable, percise authors

[Joseph Svinth]

The original meaning of "unarmed" was "unarmored." Simply carrying a butcher knife or a club, or even a gentleman's sword, was not considered "armed." Thus, Athena springing fully armed from Zeus's brow is invariably shown wearing breastplate and helmet.

That said, I had never heard that particular whopper before. So, your best bet is to ask whomever it is that is telling you such whoppers what his source was. My guess is the answer will be, "Sensei Sez."

In that case, you have your answer. Sensei said it, it must be true. End of story.

[EddieK]

I am going to have to paraphrase here because I cannot find my copy of Funakoshi's book; "Karate-Do, My Way of Life" in it he states that breaking was something that magicians did in China for entertainment and not originally done by martial artists. Again, paraphrasing here!

[Kendoguy9]

The people of the Ryukyu kingdom were conquered by the Satsuma domain in southern Japan. In Satsuma they studied a very vigorous style of swordsmanship called Jigen-ryu. I can't access youtube from work but there are several videos of the ryu on youtube. You'll know you have the correct Jigen-ryu when you see guys screaming at the top of their lungs charging a bundle of sticks and hitting it as hard and fast as they can. This sort of training is the basic training that Satsuma samurai would do before learning the more complex kata of the ryu such as empi (the same empi in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu actually, via Taisha-ryu).

I don't know where the idea of wood armor came from but I have never seen wood armor before. Most Japanese armor is made from steel plates, chainmail or rawhide. I honestly don't think anyone can break steel or rawhide armor with their hands. In this case the karateka would have to get through a barrage of razor sharp sword cuts without getting hit and than be able to set himself up to break through armor (I don't think a jab will do it ;)). I doubt you'll find a good source trying to *disprove* this myth because the burden of proof would be on the person telling the myth. I would be interested in seeing the source of the myth that breaking broads is training to break armor. I have a feeling the source would not be willing to try out his theory against a trained swordsman in armor. Just a guess. :D

[Neil Yamamoto]

Peter Urban was one of the people who helped to spread the myth of karate and it's use against armor. Look up his comments in "The Karate Dojo". He also helped spread lots of other BS stories like nunchaku being used against samurai to smash and break armor.

Westbrook and Ratti, I seem to recall, made much the same kind of comments as to karate being used against armored samurai in their contribution to martial arts media, Secrets of the Samurai.

I do remember the wood armor crud spread around before. The Shima karate dojo in British Columbia, Canada, used to have that nonsense up on their history page. If I recall correctly, some lower quality armor used by ashigaru was constructed of bamboo in parts.

Like Joe said "Sensei sez" Must be true.

[R_Garrelts]

Board breaking has been around for a very long time. Follow the circus.

Jack Dempsey used to break boards, too. Rough-cut 2x12s, back in the day when the boards were clear Doug fir, and a legitimate 2". He'd break them hanging.


Interesting to know it's been around in the West that long. Do you have a source?

On a related note, I was interested to find out recently that Maxick, the early 20th century strongman, used to perform a trick where he knocked the bottom out of a nearly full (of water) glass bottle with a smart strike to the top using his palm. Neat physics there.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/time-warp/articles/beer-bottle.html

Do you happen to know of any other breaking feats performed by early strongmen, wrestlers, or boxers?

[Joseph Svinth]

Off the top of my head, I do not recall the sources, but I do recall seeing stories about folks in SE Asia doing board breaking as far back as the 16th century, and have seen photos of Chinese street acts, probably in Vancouver or Victoria BC (definitely North American West Coast), that were taken ca. 1895.

Start by looking for the acts staged by Muslim fakir (faqir) and their Hindu equivalents in South and Southeast Asia during the Mughal era (sixteenth to nineteenth centuries). Originally, these acts were done to show the power of faith (spirit/ki/prana, what have you; examples include walking on hot coals, lifting heavy weights with one's penis, that sort of thing), and after awhile, of course some bright lad said, "Hmm, he sure makes a lot of money with that spiel."

Indian (as in British India) magicians became quite the rage in Europe in the early nineteenth century. Chinese circus acts were traveling Europe and the USA by the 1850s, and Japanese circus acts were touring Europe and the USA by the late 1860s. Barnum and Bailey, folks like that, all had their jujitsu shows.

Here, I do have some examples close to hand.

Barnum and Bailey’s circus visited Atlanta, Georgia in October 1913. Said the Atlanta Constitution: "The mikado’s jiu jitsu experts will show how even a frail woman trained in the art of Japanese scientific defense may easily overcome an assailant and slap-bang wrestling combats will be indulged in by the bulky wrestlers (shuma [sumo] men) who compose a part of the troupe." Before that, Sorakichi Matsuda wrestled Lulu, "the pine and pork fed female Samson from Georgia" (Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 1884).

For Indian magicians, see, for example, Sarah Dadswell. 2007. “Jugglers, Fakirs, and Jaduwallahs: Indian Magicians and the British State,” New Theatre Quarterly 23(1) 3-24, DOI 10.1017/S0266464X06000595, via Cambridge University Press January 16, 2007.

For stories of old-time strongmen, try David P. Willoughby. 1970. The Super Athletes: A Record of the Limits of Human Strength, Speed, and Stamina. South Brunswick and New York: A. S. Barnes.

[Andrew S]

In Satsuma they studied a very vigorous style of swordsmanship called Jigen-ryu.
... In this case the karateka would have to get through a barrage of razor sharp sword cuts without getting hit and than be able to set himself up to break through armor

And the fact that Sakugawa, Matsumura and Azato were all trained in Jigen-ryu would have reinforced this understanding.

[Duanew]

Peter Urban was one of the people who helped to spread the myth of karate and it's use against armor. .

Thus creating the first "Urban Myth"?

Duane

[Kendoguy9]

And the fact that Sakugawa, Matsumura and Azato were all trained in Jigen-ryu would have reinforced this understanding.


Very good point. They certainly would have known better than to try something as dumb and crazy as punching through armor while having swords swung at you.

This past weekend I had the pleasure of watching Shinkage-ryu's empi no kata (as I mentioned above, also found in Jigen-ryu) with odachi and naginata at a kagami biraki celebration. The kata was broken down for everyone watching to show where the various targets were and the different counters etc. What is interesting about the kata with large weapons is that it assumes the swordsmen are wearing armor (of course real armor is expensive so they weren't wearing any for the embu). All of the attacks are to places with gaps in the armor, like under the wrist, knees or hips. I would imagine if a karteka would be crazy enough to try to attack a swordsman in full armor he would NOT attack the plates of the armor but would try for the gaps between the armor just like a swordsman would. After all the goal would be to get the soft nougat center not the hard candy shell :D

[Richard Scardina]

I even read that people people that breaking boards, is a demonstration of power. Anything can be explained through dectuctive or sensible reasoning. Even science, per physics can help. The main course of this is people who hold onto such myth or legend, desire so because they are either intriqued or wabt others to be intriqued. These persons become so infacuated by such, they will not accept any type of explanation or reasoning.

[R_Garrelts]

Off the top of my head, I do not recall the sources, but I do recall seeing stories about folks in SE Asia doing board breaking as far back as the 16th century, and have seen photos of Chinese street acts, probably in Vancouver or Victoria BC (definitely North American West Coast), that were taken ca. 1895.

Start by looking for the acts staged by Muslim fakir (faqir) and their Hindu equivalents in South and Southeast Asia during the Mughal era (sixteenth to nineteenth centuries). Originally, these acts were done to show the power of faith (spirit/ki/prana, what have you; examples include walking on hot coals, lifting heavy weights with one's penis, that sort of thing), and after awhile, of course some bright lad said, "Hmm, he sure makes a lot of money with that spiel."

Indian (as in British India) magicians became quite the rage in Europe in the early nineteenth century. Chinese circus acts were traveling Europe and the USA by the 1850s, and Japanese circus acts were touring Europe and the USA by the late 1860s. Barnum and Bailey, folks like that, all had their jujitsu shows.

Here, I do have some examples close to hand.

Barnum and Bailey’s circus visited Atlanta, Georgia in October 1913. Said the Atlanta Constitution: "The mikado’s jiu jitsu experts will show how even a frail woman trained in the art of Japanese scientific defense may easily overcome an assailant and slap-bang wrestling combats will be indulged in by the bulky wrestlers (shuma [sumo] men) who compose a part of the troupe." Before that, Sorakichi Matsuda wrestled Lulu, "the pine and pork fed female Samson from Georgia" (Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 1884).

For Indian magicians, see, for example, Sarah Dadswell. 2007. “Jugglers, Fakirs, and Jaduwallahs: Indian Magicians and the British State,” New Theatre Quarterly 23(1) 3-24, DOI 10.1017/S0266464X06000595, via Cambridge University Press January 16, 2007.

For stories of old-time strongmen, try David P. Willoughby. 1970. The Super Athletes: A Record of the Limits of Human Strength, Speed, and Stamina. South Brunswick and New York: A. S. Barnes.

Thanks for the references. I actually had Willoughby's book in mind when I mentioned Maxick. No other tameshiwari-type stuff in that book that I can recall, though (unless you count driving nails into boards/metal plates by hand).

Please let me know if you happen to recall the source for the Dempsey tidbit--web search hasn't turned up anything.

Thanks again. Have a good weekend.

[Joseph Svinth]

Well, it's not Jack Dempsey, but here are some stories from the newspapers.

Poverty Bay Herald, 26 Feb 1906, page 3, http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=PBH19060226.2.28

"Herr Josef Hajek, the well-known Austrian strong man, died in Sydney last week, from cancer in the stomach. The dead athlete was once connected with Fitzgerald Bros.' Circus, and in his day wrestled a number of matches... When Hajek was showing at the circus, part of his performance was to have an anvil placed upon his stomach, and to allow three men to strike at it with heavy sledge-hammers."

Same paper, next item:

"Richard McGrevey, who recently died at Kuaotunu, was a well-known character throughout the North Island, being commonly known as 'Dick Hard-head.' He was an old man who wandered about from one district to another exhibiting the wonderful hardness of his head. Without the slightest compunction he would ram his head through the panel of a door, break bottles upon it, and he even has been known to break bricks upon his head without appearing to suffer therefrom."

During in the 1930s, US judoka Mas Tamura was breaking rocks as a method of developing ki. I don't know where Tamura got the idea, but he was very legit, and not much given to exaggeration.

Meanwhile, San Jose News, Nov 1, 1935, via Google News: Al Ritchie, the North Carolina Samson, was scheduled to amuse the news carriers at the local junior high school "by breaking boards, twisting steel pipes, ... driving spikes through boards with his bare hands..." etc.

LA Times, Jan 23, 1954. The Great Togo was scheduled to appear on Spade Cooley's KTLA TV show. While there, Togo was going to demonstrate karate, "the art of breaking things with the side of his hand."

Lodi (CA) News-Sentinel, Feb 9, 1956, via Google News: "The Great Togo and his brother Tosh, Japanese wrestlers who are making a splash in Northern California, hook up with Leo Nomellini and Enrique Torres in the feature tag team match at the Stockton Civic Auditorium tonight. .. The Togo's are also scheduled to put on a display of Karatae, a sport of breaking rocks, bricks, boards and other objects with bare hands and heads." Note: The Great Togo's "brothers" included Mas Oyama.

Miluwaukee Journal, April 22, 1956, via Google News. Kazuo Togo (this isn't Oyama, but one of the other Togos, probably Kazuo Okamura of Hood River, Oregon) "shows that he can break rocks with his [hands]." A nice series of photos accompanies the article.

Ottawa Citizen, Jun 23, 1956, said that compared to karate, judo and WWII combatives were "sissy stuff." (Via Google News)

Eugene (OR) Register-Guard, Jan 19, 1959, via Google News: Mun Yo Woo, a Korean graduate student at Lewis and Clark College, was giving karate demonstrations at the Portland YMCA. He had gone through the seven preliminary steps, and was now graded black belt, first step. According to the article, karate was "a practice so deadly that a proficient amateur is required, in Korea, to register with the police."

Miami News, Jul 3, 1960, via Google News: "Need any bricks broken in two?" The instructor here was Ralph J. Bove, of North Miami, a shodan in Isshan-do, with headquarters in Jersey City, NJ. Bove was a Marine, headed to Okinawa, who was looking forward to the trip so he could learn to speak Japanese. Said Bove, "I do not plan to teach women and karate would be very dangerous in the hands of children."

Los Angeles Times, November 3, 1963, has Ed Parker claiming that those proficient in shattering boards or bricks can disable or kill several opponents at a time. (ProQuest)

***

As for how this got started, and how far back the practice may go, well, here's a clue:

Near Dutse, Nigeria, in 2009, boys aged 4-6 years were employed to break big rocks into gravel, which was then used to make roads, using their bare hands as the primary tool. The reason was that it is much cheaper to have kids break rocks with their bare hands than it is to use mechanical crushing equipment. http://allafrica.com/stories/200904030129.html

[R_Garrelts]

Many thanks! I'm sorry to say, though, that I seem to have caused you more trouble than was necessary by not performing an adequate search myself; I had no idea that Google's news archives went back that far. My apologies. But HOORAY Google!

Thanks again for your help.

If anyone's curious, the May 29, 1898 edition of the Reading Eagle and the July 9, 1899 edition of the Bridgeport Herald both also contain references to breaking boards and are the earliest ones I could find (via Google).

[Joseph Svinth]

Old newspapers are starting to become available online all over the place. Many of the sites are pay-per-view (British Library, NewspaperArchive.com, ProQuest, Gale Groups' London Times, etc.), but compared to traveling all over and then going blind reading microfilm? This is much, much better.

Google Scholar and Google Books are also worthwhile. And, in the look but don't touch category, you can find all kinds of neat images at LIFE magazine archives, CORBIS, and Getty Images.

[Richard Scardina]

Wow...thanks to all...very informative responses