Shorinji Kempo Forum

[Shudo]

I have been reading the Shorinji Kempo forum a lot over the past couple of days. I don't do Shorinji Kempo, but have watched some of their demonstartions in Japan and always liked what was on display. But looking at whats happening on public diplay, in the forum, in relation to their issues with the WSKO and BSKF and all the politics in between, I have to say, as an outsider, to see this aired in public is extremely unpleasant. I am not sure I agree with this being aired on an open forum on e-budo, maybe there is a better way to accomodate such exchanges in a private forum. The organisations that I and my son, have and do belong to, have had there ups and downs, splits and new associations started, but never have our issues been aired in such a way and also, most, if not all, of the junior members have been protected from controversy. Beacause all they need to do is train. I am not sure I am posting this in a correct forum, but felt the need to speak. Don't shoot. I hope it all turns out well......as it will eventually one way or the other.
Sean Halpin

[DDATFUS]

It is their problem, and if they choose to discuss it in such a manner then that is their decision. We always have the choice of not reading it if we feel that it should be kept private, after all.

I, for one, am very glad that they have chosen to let the rest of the world in on some of the discussion. In the first place, it has been clear for a while that all was not well in the world of Shorinji Kempo, and keeping a lid on things would have just led to more rumor. In the second place, at least a part of the outcry amongst some British kenshi seems to stem from a belief that things have been conducted under the table and behind locked doors for too long. Letting in a little sunshine isn't a bad thing at all.

Shorinji Kempo is more than "just" a martial art; its members profess the goal of seeking to build an ideal world. This requires them to have a public face and to interact with portions of the non-kenshi community. In this case, a certain amount of disclosure probably necessary for them to maintain their overall goal. It also demonstrates a laudable openness. This doesn't mean that we will or should get to see all of the "dirty laundry" in this case; some of it is family business and I'm sure that it will remain so.

Personally, I'm extremely grateful that the British kenshi have shared some of their concerns with the world at large. They are not the only ones who have to grapple with cultural clashes between the Japanese parent organization and their own cultural norms or the only ones to have kinks in trying to run a large and international organization. We can all learn something from the situation that they are currently dealing with. In that way, the British kenshi are allowing all of us to benefit from their own current problems. That sounds like the highest ideals of Shorinji Kempo to me.

[dirk.bruere]

Having just been pointed to this thread I should say that I for one would not have been willing to air all this in public, except for the fact that there is nowhere else to do it. There are no internal discussion boards, as far as I know, attached to any SK federation. It is not the SK way.

Which is a problem I have complained about on and off for 15 years, at one point referring to us Kenshi as "mushrooms" ie kept in the dark and fed on ****. I do not object, in principle, to belonging to an order rather than a democracy. I understood this when I signed up 30 years ago. What I have always objected to is the lack of transparency when it comes to decisions.

Now things have become somewhat more transparent in the past few years, mainly because of easy communications facilitated by the Net, more serious issues have come to light. In my opinion, I should add. They concern the whole direction of our enterprise and the reason for its existence. As I stated elsewhere, what I joined 30 years ago is not what exists now, and its ongoing direction is away from what I had hoped it would become.

However, my objections should not be confused with the internal politics that are causing the problems now. Such things come and go, and are at worst merely symptoms. The "ideal world" we strive for is a fine thing and causes no problems at all, unless we get down to the details of what an "ideal world" actually is. Then we all have different ideas, the biggest divergence being between East and West.

Nevertheless, the founder's words and philosophy (Doshin So) are applicable to all of us. We merely fight over how we interpret his vision.

[paul browne]

Hi Sean,

As a Shorinji Kenshi I don't have a tremendous problem with peoples views being aired, even on a public forum (generally). However I have huge problems with the manner in which some individuals have chosen to do so sometimes, with behaviour of even senior members falling far below that anyone proffessing to study Budo should seek to maintain.
Evidently that has reflected badly on us as an art and organisation (after all it came to your attention). I just hope that you and others don't judge us entirely on the content of these posts.

Regards
Paul

[P Goldsbury]

Hi Sean,

As a Shorinji Kenshi I don't have a tremendous problem with peoples views being aired, even on a public forum (generally). However I have huge problems with the manner in which some individuals have chosen to do so sometimes, with behaviour of even senior members falling far below that anyone proffessing to study Budo should seek to maintain.
Evidently that has reflected badly on us as an art and organisation (after all it came to your attention). I just hope that you and others don't judge us entirely on the content of these posts.

Regards
Paul

Mr Browne,

I do not agree with you here. I have been monitoring the SK forums from two aspects, one as a moderator of E-Budo, and the other as a long-term practitioner of an art that has some resemblances to SK, especially in the political problems involving a Japanese Hombu and local organizations composed of members who do not necessarily understand the minutiae of Japanese culture.
So the questions I ask myself are:

Is the level of discussion and debate acceptable in an E-Budo forum?
The answer is generally, Yes.

Does the debate and the internal issues discussed reflect badly on the art and the organization?
The answer is generally, No.

I am aware that people just want to get on with training and that juniors need to be 'protected' to some extent. On the other hand, it is inevitable, in my opinion, that problems will arise in any organization dedicated to physical and spiritual progress--as this is understood in an organizational culture. This includes the general evolution of spiritual aims with the passing of generations and the more specific issues relating to national organizations.

My own budo training has shown me, at least, the need for complete honesty in dealing with these: honesty with respect to the values of the art itself and honesty with respect to one's own culture.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

[David Dunn]

Peter,
I'm always interested to you hear your views. I hope my own posts are not inflamatory or insulting.

Ordinarily I agree that you shouldn't hang your washing out in public. However, that really hasn't been our choice. David Sims is just about right. Our hombu has placed a gagging order on us, while at the same time conducting a campaign on two fronts. First, a quiet but relentless one in Japan, and second by feeding certain BSKF members enough (mis)information, and turning a blind eye to them promulgating it around WSKO branches via the internet. I have heard some of the things that have been said in private emails. Going public is really the only option to redress the balance and ensure that come next weekend, we cannot be painted as small band of troublemakers. The BSKF will have 20 or more of its 30 branches left. This is most definitely not minority troublemaking.

I don't really buy that you have to understand the minutiae of Japanese culture. I understand enough of it, having spent many years training with a Japanese instructor and befriending many Japanese people through training. This behaviour is beyond the pale. Striking a deal and then reneging on it - that's not the normal order of service. Giving everyone the "evidence" in order to destroy a reputation, and then ask for silence in return. That's not the normal order of service. The rank-and-file Japanese branchmasters who I have had the great pleasure to train with over the years do not necessarily subscribe to the centre. Some of our own branchmasters have been prepared to play ball. So to put it down to Japan vs Europe is a bit simple-minded.

British karate apparently also suffered from this kind of stuff when Enoeda sensei passed away. One of the guys who comes to train in my dojo as a white belt is a very long standing karateka, and instructor. He sent me this video, which is apposite:
Harry Cook talks about dojo bullying. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYnDvlWzZqI)

He talks about fairness. We have been asked to do unfair things and put ourselves in unfair positions.

[P Goldsbury]

Hello David,

I do not think it is my place to discuss the details of the conflict between the WSKO and the BSKF here. The comments I made were quite general and concerned the fact of such a discussion in a forum such as E-Budo and also the way the discussion has been conducted.

I have listened to Harry Cook's discussion and I, too, have firsthand experience of martial arts training in Japanese universities--especially the sempai-kohai system. He presents one view of the problem, but does not say very much about solutions. In my own university, one solution was very simple: the students voted with their feet and a few Taiikukai martial arts clubs now have zero members in some years.

Best wishes,

PAG

[paul browne]

Gassho Sensei Goldsbury,

I have no problem with open and honest debate, however in recent months many of the discussions descended into insults and insinuations, often from relatively senior instructors of the art. Happily this has been curbed somewhat but I stand by my original statement. It reflects badly on both the individuals and the art in general when they do it. You might say it's not a matter of displaying the art in the manner of your culture but rather displaying a complete lack of one. Incidently if everyone conducted themselves in the manner you do when you visit our little corner of Ebudo, we wouldn't be having this exchange :).

Regards
Paul (I prefer Paul, being called 'Mr.Browne' usually means trouble is coming my way:))

Kesshu

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your response.

Since I moderate the Baffling Budo / Bad Budo forums, perhaps I took your earlier remarks too generally. :) Given the nature of the problems being discussed, I think that the level of discussion in the SK forum has been quite reasonable.

As an outsider, I feel that the problem between the BSKF and the WSKO is sometimes presented too much as an 'us vs. them' problem, with the shared values that come from both sides training in the same art somehow forgotten.

I occasionally visit the SK website. Since I can read Japanese, I have noticed a certain imbalance of information on the Japanese vs. the English language SK website. For example, the structure of SK in Japan is much more clearly set out, with the five components, including WSKO. The English website seems to deal only with the WSKO, hence someone like myself might have the impression that the WSKO equals SK.

Personally, I am curious about the actual working relationship between the five units in Japan, as about the structural / legal relationships between the WSKO and the SK federations overseas. However, this is because I am the elected head of a large international federation that has a similar structural / legal relationship with a Hombu in Japan.

Of course, I am aware that this is not the place to discuss it.

Best wishes,

Peter Goldsbury

[P. Hval]

Hello,

I live/work in Japan so as to learn its traditional culture, and have been thinking about studying Shorinji Kempo. However, given the above thread mentioning BSKF (British Shorinji Kempo Federation, I assume) and WSKO (World...), could that impact on such hoped-for study? With apologies for what may be a naive and/or out-of-line question, Pamela

[P Goldsbury]

Hello,

I do not practice Shorinji Kempo, but I have lived here for thirty years, also studying Japanese language and culture. I am sure that one of the kenshi can answer your question more precisely, but I very much doubt that the political problems involving the BSKF and WSKO will have any impact on your training here in Japan. I am sure you will find a good dojo in Saitama.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

Hello,

I live/work in Japan so as to learn its traditional culture, and have been thinking about studying Shorinji Kempo. However, given the above thread mentioning BSKF (British Shorinji Kempo Federation, I assume) and WSKO (World...), could that impact on such hoped-for study? With apologies for what may be a naive and/or out-of-line question, Pamela

[David Dunn]

Pamela,
it won't affect your experience and enjoyment of Shorinji Kempo in Japan. I had a student who got to shodan in Saitama while spending a few years working in Japan. I can ask him to recommend or put you touch with someone there. Send me a PM if you would like to follow this up.

[Jeremy Williams]

Pamela,

I am a kenshi and live in Japan. The Japanese end of things is completely separate from WSKO and the BSKF, so no problems there. There are good dojos everywhere. Just enjoy!

[Steve Williams]

Pamela,

I am a kenshi and live in Japan. The Japanese end of things is completely separate from WSKO and the BSKF, so no problems there. There are good dojos everywhere. Just enjoy!
There are even good dojos in the uk ;)

[paul browne]

There are even good dojos in the uk ;)

Most, possibly all, the dojo in the UK are good. It's outside the dojo the problems seem to lie. :)

Paul

[Jeremy Williams]

Most, possibly all, the dojo in the UK are good. It's outside the dojo the problems seem to lie. :)

Paul

Then the answer is obvious, my dear Watson: never leave the dojo!

[Steve Delaney]

Welcome to the world of budo politics. It's nasty, messy and people who you thought of as family will rip your giblets out rather than have reasonable discussions. :look: Enjoy, experience, and then move on.

[Shudo]

It seems that the general concensus is that most people are happy to communicate via a public forum. However, some posts were withdrawn or removed and were maybe too sensitive or bordering libel/slander action. Which re-inforces my belief that maybe it is better to discuss issues like this in a more private way. It seems to have played out to some form of conclusion and a conclusion that seems to get more and more common as time goes on, a split from Japan. I wish you all, all the best in the future.
Sean Halpin