breathing and cuts

[rottunpunk]

so, at a niten seminar this week i was told not to breath when doing sassen, or cutting for that matter. It works really well, but i am in the habit of breathing out in iai

any thoughts on why one thing works in one art and not the other?

I do tosa eishin ryu so both are very dynamic.

thanks in advance
deborah

[J. Mijares]

I think some it has to do with the fact that when you're exhaling, your body isn't always steady. Any slight movement of the diaphram, any slight jitter, and you actually throw off your technique. I exhale during cutting only because I have to ki-ai.

If you've ever shot a long gun before, or seen it done by a sniper, you'll notice that they completely exhale before taking the shot because even a slight breath in or our could throw off their aim.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Good answer, Jay, speaking as both an ex-sniper & long-time MJER student.

But that now makes me wonder how a kiai affects cutting accuracy...? I've never tried tameshigiri without a kiai, but of course neither bamboo nor tatami omote really care where you cut them. I think I'll put a few small pieces of tape on my next target & see whether my accuracy is affected either way. :saw:

[Kim Taylor]

Deb, the Niten you are doing is by way of Imai and Iwami soke and the body mechanics are quite different to what you are used to in iai. Take note of how high your concentration is, how much "wind-up" you are in just before you cut. The breath holding is part of that body mechanics which have a very distinctive effect on your physiology and your psychology.

Think about how different you feel when you are about to cut down in sasen or about to respond to that cut as vs. when you are doing iai. The short answer is that practicing in Niten is quite different than the practice in iai.

Kim.

[rottunpunk]

Hi
thanks for the thoughts so far

Kim; indeed i am doing Iwami's niten, but i am also doing Iwata's Iai, so both very dynamic
Perhaps the iai is less so with the speed that i am doing everything right now (slow and dead slow) but the feeling should still be the same should it not?

Also, what about other things like karate and kendo? Is there not a breathing out there? interesting.

The rifle view is very interesting also.
In niten one has to inhale to make the movement, but then moving the whole body is different from making a fine shot with a finger i guess?

[Kendoguy9]

Hi Deborah,

My Daito-ryu teacher Kondo sensei once described breathing as yin and yang. Yin breathing is when you breath in. Yang breathing is when you either hold and compress your breath or breath out. I think Aum breathing is very common to many different sword styles and the exact method varies with the school.

In Jikishinkage-ryu you breath in at the "Ah" with an open mouth. You close the mouth and compress the breath at "U." Finally you release the breath through the nose at the "Mmm." You can see two fellows walking and doing the breathing here around the 1:44 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlyTVTXa8Ng

Needless to say, once you get patterned doing one breathing method it can be very hard to change. My teacher tried to teach me Seigo-ryu batto and it ended up being a nasty mix of Seigo-ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu. I gave up on the batto. :)

Good luck,

[Kim Taylor]

Hi
thanks for the thoughts so far

Kim; indeed i am doing Iwami's niten, but i am also doing Iwata's Iai, so both very dynamic
Perhaps the iai is less so with the speed that i am doing everything right now (slow and dead slow) but the feeling should still be the same should it not?

Also, what about other things like karate and kendo? Is there not a breathing out there? interesting.

The rifle view is very interesting also.
In niten one has to inhale to make the movement, but then moving the whole body is different from making a fine shot with a finger i guess?


Having practiced with Iwata s., Imai s. Iwami s. and many others, I'm confident that you will find a difference in the fundamental approach of the later Imai soke's and Iwami soke's style of Niten from other arts out there. Your question has shown that you do indeed feel a difference. In the next 10-15 years Niten will, I am confident, continue to change a bit in the fundamentals.

For a better explanation of what I'm getting at Deb, check out http://ejmas.com/pt/2009pt/ptart_taylor-3_0909.html

Kim.

[Chidokan]

Debz,
you may not be aware of this until you examine it, but during the 'tension' part of the cut for our MJER, you do not breathe as the muscles lock the diaphram etc...
This may not be obvious at the moment due to the speed you have been told to work at by Yabe sensei, as this masks it...Next time you are here, I will take you through it.

[rottunpunk]

Thanks for the article kim
it was an interesting read
now the end posture in sassen seems to be somewhere between the two you described, but the tsuki itself is direct, this seems more appropriate with the body move (a drive forward with the right hip whilst pulling back with the left.)

tim, whilst up the top end doing things quikly how do you breath or not breath doing things like sunegakoi which is a similar movement?

[paul manogue]

In yagyu shin kage ryu we compress our breath, much like jikishinkage, and I have had similar breathing patterns taught to me in ten nen rishin ryu. But while training in ni ten ichi ryu heiho under Miyagawa sensei in kyoto we were taught to exhale on the cut and to do multiple cuts on one breath, quite hard to change when your use to one.

[rottunpunk]

hmmn, interesting
despite age then as nagaoka is about 70 and iwami soke has bad hips
one can see a definite difference in the way the hips move between
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pkGJrp9HlI
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7LDXpAohjQ&feature=related

[Chidokan]

whilst up the top end doing things quickly how do you breath or not breath doing things like sunegakoi which is a similar movement

With great difficulty of course!:laugh: It's actually a bit easier to get the breathing timing right when you move at a rate just below natural speed, so I have an advantage over you at the moment...

If iai was easy, you wouldn't do it, would you....;)

[hyaku]

In Niten ichiryu we use searu-ki. So we emit kia but it is silent. Kia requires exhalation. Some people as you know feel a need to emit noise. For example Nagaoka San who has a karate background. Imai Soke never discouraged a verbal kia as in Kendo as it showed Niten kikentai ichi.

Main points are you should not over inhale in the first place. Your breath should be emitted quietly and continuously as you attack. Any stopping or further breathing in totally breaks the cutting, thrusting rythym. There should be "lots" left over as you complete the "Sen" action with zanshin to further attack if required.

Good exercise: Do sasen the length of the dojo as many time as possible on one breath.

Nagaoka over 70? He is younger than me. Iwami Soke has goods hips and amazing movement. He has a bad back.

[rottunpunk]

Hi Tim
You going slow? hahahahahha ;)
hmmn, i have now tried with the hara, and it is true that it restricts breathing, though it is still possible to breath
i was trying to use similar things in that seminar, but evidently it wasnt working
holding my breath entirly on the spin made a lot of difference

my question was, when do you breath or apply hara on the sunegakoi?
In the beginners group the movement was still quite seperated, but i am guessing you guys were flowing the two movements together more?

Hyaku
How old is nagaoka?
His grey hair made me think he was much older than he is then.

thanks for the training tip
i will try it this coming week

[hyaku]

Hi Tim

His grey hair made me think he was much older than he is then.

Some high schoolers have shiraga (white hair) and to fit in with school policy have to dye it black!

[Chidokan]

my iai is wrecked and I have to start again.... I reckon ten years practise should just about fix it though.

sunegakoi.. hara just before you contact the other blade.

[Jonathan Tow]

sunegakoi.. hara just before you contact the other blade.

I found practising most of the seated techniques of the Tsume iai no kurai useful for learning the timing since you have a partner to do it against and you also start from tatehiza. Always a challenge when training with different people and their various speeds, reach, timing etc...:D

[ScottUK]

Nagaoka over 70? He is younger than me. Iwami Soke has goods hips and amazing movement. He has a bad back.Aye, Nagaoka-sensei is around the same age as Iwami-soke - and soke does indeed has a back problem. That said, the guy never ceases to amaze me with his vitality. He'd rather throw himself into the seiho and suffer the next day rather than slow himself down. Remember the closing sassen-fest at the seminar?

(note title hint above, Debz) :)

[rottunpunk]

Sorry Scott i am too bad at taking hints
It's obvious i respect them, as i do tim, titles are not always neccessary
but lets not get into that

Thierry told me how old he is, as old as my knees and he can move like that. terrific

Thanks tim
I will work on it

sigh, to be able to do tsumiai no kurai, or the daiso zume
i would need a partner first

[ZealUK]

Sorry Scott i am too bad at taking hints
It's obvious i respect them, as i do tim, titles are not always neccessary
but lets not get into that

Well they may not be necessary on an Internet forum, but you should be careful to use them correctly in front of Japanese people as 呼び捨て (using names with no honorific title) is very rude indeed.

[rottunpunk]

indeed, i have been around them long enough to know this.

How is the school going? and the jigen?

There is lots of shout in in your ryu, what about hara application and breathing or not breathing on cuts etc?
forgive my ignorance, all that i have seen is in a books dvd and the youtube branch bashing exercise

rgds

[hyaku]

Aye, Nagaoka-sensei is around the same age as Iwami-soke - and soke does indeed has a back problem. That said, the guy never ceases to amaze me with his vitality. He'd rather throw himself into the seiho and suffer the next day rather than slow himself down. Remember the closing sassen-fest at the seminar?

(note title hint above, Debz) :)

He has been on med for years. Came to the dojo once and said it was his last day of practice as he had a suspected hernia. He is still going. He is 63 next birthday.

[Hellsten]

Regarding Deb's original post I would like to comment that Iwata Sensei (MJER menkyo kaiden) has said there is no specific breathing in (Tosa Eishin Ryu) iai - you just have to breath. This is what even Takada Gakudo Sensei (menkyo kaiden from Muso Shinden Ryu) has said: if you learn to do nukitsuke always breathing out it will be easy for your opponent to know when you are attacking. It should be done so that breathing is not visible. He also said that all people have learnt to breath, there is no need to teach that separately.

About the iaido and “snipermanship” I think it is different as in sniping aiming needs time
so you have steady your hands and use your breathing to support. Iaido is more like practical shooting, no time, just act...

Anyway, different arts use different breathing systems and teaching that suit best the idea of the originator of the art...

Using your hara is a little bit different...

Best wishes

Pasi Hellsten
http://www.iaido.fi/
http://www.musoshindenryu.fi/index_en.html

so, at a niten seminar this week i was told not to breath when doing sassen, or cutting for that matter. It works really well, but i am in the habit of breathing out in iai

any thoughts on why one thing works in one art and not the other?

I do tosa eishin ryu so both are very dynamic.

thanks in advance
deborah