koryu vs gendai

[yamatodamashii]

Here's my question on Koryu and Gendai. Should we even be discussing them together? I think that we have done a great disservice by lumping together a group of physical/spiritual exercises with a group of techniques of warfare, under the same word.

I don't even like to use the term "Martial Arts" anymore, and "budo" isn't much better.

I understand that karate, judo, aikido and the rest have been used in fights. Successfully. But that isn't there PURPOSE, as it is with Koryu. You can fight with a baseball bat, too, but that won't make it a sword.

[Tony Peters]

At first I was going to agree with you however on further contemplation I feel that you may be looking at Koryu arts with a narrow field of view (I'm a photgrapher please excuse the analogy) Yes at one time Koryu arts were battlefield arts and no aikido has never been tested under those conditions (at least to my knowledge). However neither is the present day world accepting of folks carrying 3 feet of razor sharp steel (though I would hazard a guess that everyone would be much more polite if this was true but I digress) Both Gendai and Koryu arts are practiced today for roughly the same reasons...the pursuit of budo/bujutsu. Very few of these skills will make you more deadly in a gunfight, today's battlefield at it's most intimate level. And by the time a battle gets to that level most of the dying has already long since been done. The "Battlefield" these days is serviced by a computer. Yes right now we still have to go to a place IRL and insure that what we have done on a computer (whether that computer is in the air, on the gound, on the sea or under it) stays the way we want it but that is mop up not war. That said they (Koryu and Gendai) do have vastly differant principles even when one compares Aikido and Aikijujutsu (some of which is indeed a Koryu art). So where does that leave us? As I've said (and many others have as well) there are only so many ways to swing a stick/sword/whatever and the body has a finite number of ways that it can be moved. What seperates Koryu and Gendai is the desired end result. I used to beleive that Aikido was the only/best way...now I beleive that it is indeed "A" way however I've become intrigued with other ways who's principles are vastly divirgent from Aikido. Does this mean that that I dislike or throw away all that I've learned in Aikido? No, hell I still think interms of Aikido names for the new variations of things I'm learning. Gendai arts have taken Koryu and made it easier for the masses to reach. Koryu teaching metheds are not as easy as Gendai ones. I have spent a lot of time off in my corner of the field practicing how to swing a stick before sensei comes over to add to my palate or correct something I've done/doing wrong. Muscle memory is much more a part of Koryu than it is Gendai (at least in my exerience) however proper movement seems to be a more an integral part of Gendai arts along with the desire to "Win" in some of the more modern ones. Koryu arts are more interested in living (sometimes it could be infered at any cost but for that YMMV) though some gendai arts have this priciple as well but the core of gendai is differant. It would be hard to discuse one with out the other especially since there are so few (relativly speaking) Koryu Practicianers compared to Gendai Practicianers. And even fewer Koryu practicianers who've never practiced a Gendai Art so how can we not link the two. Martial Arts are by Drager's definition Battlefield arts Gendai need not apply, however since all fighting arts seem to be labeled Martial these days we live with the general term or get specific with exactly what (Kenjutsu, Jojutsu, Jujtsu etc) we study In today's world the skill I learn with a Jo/boken will translate directly to a broomstick/baseball bat To think otherwise is foolish.

[yamatodamashii]

Having served as military police, infantry, and a marksmanship instructor for the US Marine Corps, I am very familiar with how battles are fought nowadays (and the Marines updated their hand-to-hand training JUST THIS YEAR). However, I think you missed the point of my analogy.

I know that gendai arts are useful for fighting. But they are not MADE for fighting. Aikido, for instance goes into great detail teaching the nuance of Aiki, using the movements of martial arts (which is very different from Aikijutsu, which teaches fighting techniques that make use of Aiki in their performance). But it is very limited for battlefield use--it does not teach pre-emptive attacks (!), nor does it teach techniques for defending your comrades--the energy of the attack must be directed AT THE AIKIDOKA for an Aikido defense to be mounted. A person with such limitations in a fight would not be my first choice of company in a defensive position (ground war still goes on, and people still get overrun by the enemy!).

Other gendai budo suffer similar limitations. It is their nature--they are ways of enlightenment and sport DESCENDED from the combat arts. They are SUPPOSED to be restricted to a single, narrow study, through which their practitioners reach a higher level of being (or just toss each other around on the mat).

Again--koryu are made for combat, like a sword. They can be appreciated for their craftsmanship, their artistry; but, in the end, they are a tool for killing the enemy. Gendai are like a baseball bat--certain painful, even fatal, if you are struck with one--but they are only PROPERLY employed in an arena that has nothing to do with war.

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by yamatodamashii
Having served as military police, infantry, and a marksmanship instructor for the US Marine Corps, I am very familiar with how battles are fought nowadays (and the Marines updated their hand-to-hand training JUST THIS YEAR). However, I think you missed the point of my analogy.

I know that gendai arts are useful for fighting. But they are not MADE for fighting. Aikido, for instance goes into great detail teaching the nuance of Aiki, using the movements of martial arts (which is very different from Aikijutsu, which teaches fighting techniques that make use of Aiki in their performance). But it is very limited for battlefield use--it does not teach pre-emptive attacks (!), nor does it teach techniques for defending your comrades--the energy of the attack must be directed AT THE AIKIDOKA for an Aikido defense to be mounted. A person with such limitations in a fight would not be my first choice of company in a defensive position (ground war still goes on, and people still get overrun by the enemy!).

Other gendai budo suffer similar limitations. It is their nature--they are ways of enlightenment and sport DESCENDED from the combat arts. They are SUPPOSED to be restricted to a single, narrow study, through which their practitioners reach a higher level of being (or just toss each other around on the mat).

Again--koryu are made for combat, like a sword. They can be appreciated for their craftsmanship, their artistry; but, in the end, they are a tool for killing the enemy. Gendai are like a baseball bat--certain painful, even fatal, if you are struck with one--but they are only PROPERLY employed in an arena that has nothing to do with war.


I don't think you understand what I was saying either what ever the original purpose of the Koryu was they ain't used for that now. The only real differances between Koryu and Gendai now are the training techniques and desired end result. Koryu techniques may be easier to adapt to modern combat than Aikido at the hand to hand level however I wonder if on a larger level Aikido tactics with their suprising similarity to some of Sun Tsu's priciples might work? Either way they still have to be adapted. I always hear this comment that Aikido doesn't teach pre-emptive strikes and I always wonder where ya'll practice? Since I've only been to one stateside Dojo maybe that is true however that ain't what I learned from about the 3rd kyu level on so YMMV. However that isn't the point. Every gendai art has a flaw but then the major flaw of Koryu arts is the size of their cirriculum (most times huge). Why do I need to spend ten years learning how to swing a sword? I don't "need" to, it's a skill that I will never use in the real world. Do I want to? yes I find the study of the sword to be quite interesting and suprisingly similar to swinging a baseball bat at times. I can't think of a single Army in the world that carry's a sword into combat these days so this part of the sylibus isn't really relavant to today's warmaking ablities. Fortuneatly for the USA war has progressed to the point where they/we can sit back and do everything from a distace and use troops to finish off a pre-softened enemy.

[yamatodamashii]

I was going to make a lucid and thoughtful reply, but "we can sit back and use troops to finish off a pre-softened enemy" turned my stomach. I'll be back in a few days.

[ghp]

Jason,

I know that gendai arts are useful for fighting. But they are not MADE for fighting.

Not so. Toyama Ryu iaido, jukendo, and tankendo are gendai budo -- and they were developed specificallyfor fighting. These gendai budo have now redeveloped into a "way" vice "combative;" however, the intent to kill an enemy is still clearly evident.

[nb, for those who do not know, jukendo is bayonet fencing and tankendo is dagger (dismounted bayonet) fighting.]

Regards,
Guy

[yamatodamashii]

Okay, I can't stand it. I'll post now.

Guy,

Thanks for your distinction. I kept meaning to make a post about CERTAIN gendai budo that do blur the line--jukendo certainly being one of those. I had also been thinking of Shorinji kenpo.

Peace be with you
____________________________________________________________

Mr. Peters--

My reply to you is in several parts:

1) Once again (respectfully); I am not referring to what koryu are currently USED FOR; at least not by civilians. Rather, I am making a distinction of what they were CREATED for, and what they are MOST USEFUL AS. Along those same lines: first you state that the only difference between koryu and gendai today is training methods and desired result, then you state that the curriculum of koryu arts is too large. Please clarify?

2) I never said that gendai arts were FLAWED. I said that they were limited in combat, because they were not created for the purpose of combat.

3) On aikido. Please, give me the name of an aikido technique that counts as a legitimate "I hit him before he can hit me" technique, and what system of aikido this technique is taught in. I am genuinely interested. Also, what corrollaries have you drawn between aikido and the Sun Tzu text, who's translation did you use, and why exactly are they surprising?

4) The above points are all legitimate requests for knowledge between friendly collegues. This is one that is very touchy for me. If war breaks out, IT WILL NOT END without an actual, bullets and mortars ground battle. People--brave, talented people on both sides--will be sent out by their governments to kill or be killed. Ground war happens. Hand to hand happens. It is an ugly, cruel thing that should not be talked about as if "they" were nintendo characters that "we" can sit behind a computer and "send in against a pre-softened enemy". "They" are my friends. Beyond that, "they" deserve the most thorough, battle-tested knowledge of improvised weapons, strangulations, joint breaking techniques, stealth training... all these things that koryu teach and gendai (in general) do not.

I apologize if I come across as irate, however, as I mentioned, that particular spot struck a very sensitive nerve. I respectfully wait for any further correspondence on these points?

Peace be with you

[Earl Hartman]

Guy:

Really good points. From that perspective, while civilian disturbances may not be considered "war", I am absolutely certain that the riot squad police training in kendo must help them greatly when it comes time to deal with the kind of civil disobedience that, for instance, accompanied the original construction of the international airport at Narita. If you may recall, there was serious resistance on the part of the farmers whose land was taken by eminent domain, actively aided by radical student groups. Some of the clashes involved sharpened bamboo spears, as I recall, and I'm fairly certain there was at least one fatality (I think a cop took a spear in the guts, but I'm not sure). In any case, bashing each other with sticks on a daily basis has got to help people, psychologically at least, to face such a confrontation . As far as I'm concerned, regradless of the rules boxing and football may have, anyone who has the guts to stand in and take a punch, or who can face an onrushing linebacker without tossing his cookies in panic knows a lot more about fighting than someone who practices a "martial art" yet has never crossed blades or swung a fist with anything on the line.

The Duke of Wellington is reputed to have said that "the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton", that is, the sports that the British played, and the way they played them, was one of the factors that contributed directly to the success of British arms (being British, he was probably talking more about discipline than anything else). I think that any martial "art/sport", however one may want to define it, so long as victory in competition is the ultimate objective, and so long as there is an element of danger and the potential for pain and suffering involved, will be of value in teaching people how to cope with the stress of conflict. Some martial sports/arts may have more of this than others and thus be better for this purpose.

I think that this is why Donn Draeger came up with his arbitrary classifications of bujutsu vs. budo and koryu vs. gendai, simply because there is really no other way to start a conversation on the subject. There are clear differences between koryu and gendai, but they are, as with everything, "case by case". Toyama Ryu may be gendai, but it was designed for war. The same with jukendo. Can we say they are technically "gendai" but spiritually "koryu"? At this point, things get hopelessly muddled if one sticks slavishly to arbitrary definitions. When something is as varied and multi-faceted as the bugei, it is simply impossible to come up with a "one size fits all" definition.

Earl

[Tony Peters]

Originally posted by yamatodamashii
Okay, I can't stand it. I'll post now.

Mr. Peters--

My reply to you is in several parts:

1) Once again (respectfully); I am not referring to what koryu are currently USED FOR; at least not by civilians. Rather, I am making a distinction of what they were CREATED for, and what they are MOST USEFUL AS. Along those same lines: first you state that the only difference between koryu and gendai today is training methods and desired result, then you state that the curriculum of koryu arts is too large. Please clarify?

2) I never said that gendai arts were FLAWED. I said that they were limited in combat, because they were not created for the purpose of combat.

3) On aikido. Please, give me the name of an aikido technique that counts as a legitimate "I hit him before he can hit me" technique, and what system of aikido this technique is taught in. I am genuinely interested. Also, what corrollaries have you drawn between aikido and the Sun Tzu text, who's translation did you use, and why exactly are they surprising?

4) The above points are all legitimate requests for knowledge between friendly collegues. This is one that is very touchy for me. If war breaks out, IT WILL NOT END without an actual, bullets and mortars ground battle. People--brave, talented people on both sides--will be sent out by their governments to kill or be killed. Ground war happens. Hand to hand happens. It is an ugly, cruel thing that should not be talked about as if "they" were nintendo characters that "we" can sit behind a computer and "send in against a pre-softened enemy". "They" are my friends. Beyond that, "they" deserve the most thorough, battle-tested knowledge of improvised weapons, strangulations, joint breaking techniques, stealth training... all these things that koryu teach and gendai (in general) do not.

I apologize if I come across as irate, however, as I mentioned, that particular spot struck a very sensitive nerve. I respectfully wait for any further correspondence on these points?

Peace be with you

1)Ok I was a bit distracted when I wrote that as I wrote it in the middle of our morning meeting (quarters for the military types). Koryu have a name and Kata for each technique whether it is related to another or not where as most Gendai arts that I have seen have one name for a group of variation of the same basic movement. Part of the ease of learning a Gendai art is that it's all related this is not always so in Koryu. At least in my experience. As you said in point #4 ""they" deserve the most thorough, battle-tested knowledge of improvised weapons, strangulations, joint breaking techniques, stealth training... all these things that koryu teach" it's all of the other stuff that make up Koryu that cause the cirrculum to be so mumuch larger than a gendai art. Maybe you are correct. Maybe I'm starting to agree with you after all I haven't totally disagreed with most of your points, though I'm more likely to study Koryu now that I've discovered them than a Gendai Art.

2) Actually Judo was created partially to preserve Koryu arts what it has degenerated into is a seperate matter. That said I'm sorry for my choice of words...I probablly should have said something Differant though right now I can't think of how to convey my thoughs.

3) As I said I learned Aikido outside CONUS (Guam to be exact) and we practiced what has been termed an older style, Much of what we did with Ikkyo, Kokyo Nage Tenchinage and Ireminage involve nage acting first to initiate specific actions in the uke. I was scolded once for doing this at another Dojo so I'm of the opinion that it isn't done that much...sad that. As to Aikido and SunTsu I've read (and own)Cleary's translation which I don't have with me right now so I'm gonna try and wing it (I want to get Griffith's at some point in the future) Most of what I remember has to do with drawing in and setting the stage for the enemies downfall. If you don't mind I would prefer to get back to you on that after I have some time to reread both my SunTsu and some Aikido Phiosophy as I haven't had to think Aikido in almost two years.

4) My point was that It hasn't happened that way. We lost an incrediblly small number of troops (I don't like to think any loss is worthwile but it is war) during the Persian Gulf War compared to what we could have if it wasn't for the Missles and bombs dropped by the Navy and Airforce as well as the tanks killed by the Army's newest wonder helo(All Computers BTW). The Ground troops were indeed at great risk however the end result was more of a mop up of a shatted army that didn't have a chance in the first place. I whole heartedly beleive in the Motto "the more we sweat in peace the less we bleed in war. All of the training that Ground pounders do does indeed give them the added chance of survival but it is much more likely to come down to guns, mortars, tanks, and howitzers than hand to hand. I've got a SEAL buddy who once said if it gets down to hand to hand I'm F*#@%d. Anyway the second "War"(if you want to call it that), Kosovo, that we have been in in the last decade was almost entirely a push button war. Troops (sizeable amounts anyway PJ's and rescue troops don't count) were not used until after it was all over and then (in my opinion) poorly. Does all of this mean that we (the military) shouldn't train in Hand to Hand Combat? No but I think that more time putting Bullets/bombs/missle on target is a much more useful expenditure of time unfortuneatly that cost's money More than Congress/the president wants to give. They would rather use soldiers and marines and psuedo policemen (not what there trained for excepting a few small groups). Ground troops and/or the threat of their use is what makes it so easy for the Navy/Airforce to succeed. I've sweat a lot in my military career, doing a large number of jobs and I found that training was usually harder than what we were trained for; it was the stress of the situation not the action itself which was most difficult. Of course I worked on a Carrier flightdeck at night so all things are relative to me (yup I'm a Squid). Gendai Arts do a very good job of imitating the "stress" in a manner that is still somewhat safe where as koryu teaches deadly techniques but you are never really put into a deadly/stressful position (relativly speaking) so both are useful. I hope this is what you were looking for.

[Edited by Tony Peters on 06-23-2000 at 03:30 PM]

[Kolschey]

Please excuse me for jumping in here.

Mr. Power,

I have heard of Jukendo, but I believe this is the first I have heard of Tankendo, and I would love to learn more about it.

Everyone,

The discussion of the role of technology in warfare is of interest to me. In some circumstances, it would seem that technology has been decisive in maintaining a favourable ( To American and Western European forces) balance of force in which there would appear to be a greater capability to disrupt the adversary's warmaking ability through long range disruption of logistical, Command and Control, and various other resources. The US military spends a considerable amount of money and energy to provide training and equipment for the individual soldier, as well as a support apparatus that maintains morale through the the continual resupply of parts, food, medicine, etc. This works nicely in an environment such as the Desrt Storm campaign, where there are ( politically )clear boundaries and targets, and a reasonably uncluttered terrain in which to manoevre. Where this advantage is seriously compromised is in environments such as Bosnia or Somalia, where there is less liberty in the application of long distance firepower. A gentleman named Daniel Bolger writes eloquently about this in a book called " Savage Peace" What we find to be the greatest vulnerabilty of the new technology is that it is expensive, requires very specialised training, and is often prone to Beta errors. It also does not make it any easier to pick out a gunman from a crowd of angry civillians. That sort of training and "sixth sense", as well as the ability to make apprpriate decisions is something which has been important to members of the Warrior's profession ever since the earliest days of recorded history. It will continue to be important regardless of the newest smart bomb, body armor, or stealth technology. Indeed, it will become even more important. We cannot count on our battles being set piece affairs, and to add insult to injury, we can definitely count on the news media to be present and ready to pass judgement in front of millions of readers/viewers. On my way back from a sword seminar in California, my friend Kurt showed me an article on the new prototype assault rifle that is being developed for U.S. forces. The damn thing weighs close to twenty pounds and has a minicomputer housed in the backpack. This does not seem like progress to me...does anyone remember the Pentium chip fiasco some years back? It is the development of a spirit that allows one to persevere and improvise effectively in adverse situations that will continue to be important for those who find themselves in a combat environment, regardless of the technology, or perhaps in spite of it. I believe that both Gendai and Koryu arts, if trained seriously, may provide this.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Jason,

Welcome to the forum. I see in your profile that you are in law enforcement, and have a military background. Apparently you also train koryu.

We have been discussing almost this exact same thing in the below thread Koryu: Tradition vs. Application. I agree with most of what you say. I train in both koryu (2 years) and gendai (well, I am starting to think that people probably wouldn't consider the "submission grappling" blend of judo ne waza, wrestling, and kickboxing as "budo," but hey...). I have found that koryu grappling methods often seem a much better fit for work in law enforcement and SWAT applications than a pure gendai sport methods. The koryu methods are weapons aware, focus on controlling an opponents ability to access a weapon, and can be graduated in terms of lethality from killing techniques to arrest/restraint methods.

I think the pure black and white distinction is not valid, however. Guy points out Toyama-ryu, Earl mentions "police" kendo, which sounds a lot more like old gekken (Earl, do they grapple?) and of course, combat/arrest methods like Taiho-jutsu are gendai. Judo used to be a lot closer to koryu jujutsu than sport grappling. All have roots in koryu, but then that is a given.

Also the majority of koryu practitioners no longer practice their arts with personal combat in mind (I think "battlefield" gives a too strict definition of where the application of koryu would lie.) Many don't even view them as combat arts, but more the practice of skills worth preserving and as a cultural tradition worth continuing.

Earl and others have mentioned how mindset is probably the most useful aspect that practice of koryu arts would bring to the modern day fighting man. This is especially clear if we are talking about, say, a naginata tradition, which would have limited usefulness in terms of techniques to a military policeman or a SWAT entry team.

Still, it is the intent you have when you practice what it is you do. Koryu, without the frame of mind that informs combative practice, are not really fighting arts as practiced by professional combatants, for the purpose of actual application. And sport methods, adapted to the realities of close quarters combat, can be very effective in real life combative encounters.

Oh, on the Sun Zi thing. I think the principles found in the Art of War and the other Chinese military classics underlay ALL of the Sino-Japanese fighting traditions.

I would like to discuss your experiences in koryu and law enforcement applications by e-mail, if you care to. I find it interesting to compare notes. I once spoke with Rory Miller, a Sosuishi-ryu practitioner /Corrections Sgt that used to post on this site, and he said something very interesting to me. He said that it was amazing how much a bushi from 400 years ago knew about surviving in a jail today.

Kit LeBlanc

[Earl Hartman]

Kit:

The cops regularly used tai atari (body striking, where you run into your opponent like a free safety in football, trying to knock him down or, at the least, unbalance him) and ashi barai (leg sweeps) in practice. Tai atari is an integral part of kendo, and is really important for developing proper kendo posture, balance, and strong legs and hips, but as far as I know, leg sweeps are not allowed in modern kendo competition. They did it all the time in practice, though. Close to tsuba zeriai (tsuba-to-tsuba), put your shinai against the side of his neck, and sweep the leg while pushing him over with the shinai. Works like a charm.

I doubt if this is taught in the US, but in Japan with the cops I was trained to close and grapple if I lost my shinai, the rationale being, of course, that in a fight you can't call time to retrieve your weapon. One time, a couple of guys lost their shinais and were wrestling around on the floor for a good 2-3 minutes while everybody else stopped training and gathered around, egging them on. It was inconclusive, so eventually the top guy told them to break it up. That's not allowed in tournaments, though.

I was once practicing against a guy with forearms like Popeye who had the wickedest makiotoshi I've ever come across. I simply couldn't hold on to the shinai, so I rushed him and made the mistake of grabbing him around the waist in a bear hug. He backed up, I fell face down, and he reached over my back and grabbed the bottom of my chest protector and pulled it up so that the top was jammed against my throat, cutting off my air supply. I thrashed around like a fish on a river bank for a few seconds before tapping out when I realized that I couldn't get away and I'd black out if I continued to resist. The Sensei, meanwhile, was laughing himself silly, and after I had recovered my breath (but not my dignity) he told me my grappling technique sucked (duh) and that what I was really supposed to do is put one hand on top of his head, grab the nodowa (the throat protector on a kendo mask) and twist the hands in opposite directions. Unless his neck is strong enough for him to resist, he'll go down.

Anyway, nobody does kendo like that here in the US, so far as I know. I (inadvertantly) knocked a bunch of guys down in a kendo tournament shortly after coming back home (one of my few moments of glory); none of the cops had ever even blinked at my pathetic tai atari, so I was astounded that they went down so easily. One of them even got knocked out when he hit the back of his head on the floor, and I was sternly lectured that I wasn't doing tai atari "properly" ("Huh"?, I thought, "they went down, didn't they"?). Another guy got so pissed off over being knocked down repeatedly that he tried to kick me in the nuts while he was on his back. I was really pissed and about to brain him when all of the judges, with these panic-stricken looks on their faces, started waving their flags and yelling "Stop, stop!" It was kind of funny, but the guy should never have tried to kick me.

Anyway, kendo like that forces you to keep your eyes open.

Earl

PS Actually, a slight correction. I mixed it up with a Japanese-trained Sensei here in the States once, and he took me down with a hip throw. He seemd to enjoy it.

[Joseph Svinth]

Earl -- The Nisei often learned kendo like that, too, but in the US most of them gave it up during WWII. The few I've talked to who still do kendo or iaido today say that they wish that kendo would go back to allowing more bodily contact, as in their minds what is done today is (and I am quoting a US 7-dan with about 60 years experience here) "a silly game of tag."

[Earl Hartman]

Joe:

That sounds about right. My first kendo teacher was a "Kibei" (an American-born Japanese who was sent to be educated in Japan and then later came back to the US) who got trapped in Japan with the outbreak of the war and spent the war years in Kyushu, where he trained in gekken style kendo. He loved to tell a story about how he was once being beaten up so badly by his teacher (he was just in his early 'teens, I think) that he just put his shinai on his shoulder and started to run to escape the beating. His teacher chased him around the dojo (shades of Tom and Jerry) and finally tackled him and got him into some sort of headlock with his legs wrapped around his head. He took his own men off and sank his teeth into his teacher's calf as far as they would go. So far as I know, his teacher got off of him, although I don't know what happened after that. He loved to tell that story, and even after all those years the enjoyment he derived from giving his teacher back was palpable.

After the tournament I spoke of, where I was lectured by a teacher from another dojo on the poor form I showed by knocking a few guys on their cans, he came over afterward and told me, with a twinkle in his eye, that I was doing just fine and that I didn't need to change a thing. I eventually came in second, so I brought a little glory to his dojo, which made him happy, so I guess he was just being selfish, although I think he derived some real pleasure from seeing the kind of kendo he used to practice. (The only downside of that was that since I had been in Japan with the cops, he now felt he could pull out a few stops when we practiced. Ow.)

Earl

[Kit LeBlanc]

Earl,

Cool. I wish I could find kendo like that around here.

Kit

[Earl Hartman]

Kit:

It may be cool, but it's damned uncomfortable. I'm a little too old for that now, I think.

Earl

[MarkF]

Yeah, it is no fun not being cool anymore. This is what makes gendai so attractive; the stories which come with them as payment down the road. I find the occasional frustrated student who will finally lose his cool during a kata session of a new throw and he/she will say" Why aren't you falling?" "You havn't thrown me yet!" It may not be Japan, but the stories are great. If they can be found in Koryu, then I am truly missing something, but I am still holding my sides. Earl, Joe, Kit and Co. Thanks. This forum needed those stories, and if the koryu practitioner could just not take himself so seriously then fun like this can be had by all. Who said budo isn't any fun?

Sincerely,

[yamatodamashii]

Kit:
My e-mail address is kenshi@onebox.com, although I think you'll find me a more avid BB poster than correspondent. It's just my nature.

Everyone:
Since we're changing topics, I have a couple of stories for you.

My first story is about training with my ex-wife. She was a Taiwanese woman whom I had met at college. She already had black belts in Shotokan karate and Tae Kwon Do when she started training in my dojo. She like to practice her spinning kicks very slowly, the way she had seen Bruce do it in "Enter the Dragon". My sensei had shown me the defense of "following the back", or circling around a spin-kicker at the same rate that they spin, out of their field of vision.
She made it very easy to do. She placed her foot at the end of her slow-mo kick, immediately did the cartoon "where are they look"--even checking the ceiling to see if I was flying somewhere. I tapped her shoulder from behind, and she almost jumped out of her skin! (this story is better if you see the demonstration).

Another time, I was practicing under an American rokudan in Judo, on Okinawa. It was my second lesson with him, but because of my previous exposure to martial arts, he was teaching me kata (I understand that this is unusual in Judo).
Anyway, this night he was showing me "kime kata", and got to a defense against a sword draw. The defense consisted of grabbing the sword drawer's wrist and circling around behind him. The proper execution of this technique is to grab the sword-handle; I believe that it has changed in Judo because the wrist is and easier target, and your opponent is never REALLY trying to kill you.
So, I told him that the technique was wrong, and that he would get his wrist broken attempting to use it that way against someone who knew what he was doing. He argued that circling behind me would protrect him, and asked me to prove it.
Of course, my turning radius spinning is much smaller than his circling around me, so as soon as he grabbed my wrist I spun 90 degrees and dropped to my knee, using the handle of my bokken to put him in a "split-wrist" lock. He barely saved himself from falling on his face, and tapped out immediately.