Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu

[Andrei Arefiev]

Hi,

This continues my question session :)

I hope that with Messrs. Skoss, Lowry, Hall and others on this board I'd be able to get some first-hand information on a few questions that have come up on two different Russian discussion forums (yes, there are some here too).

My first question is: I was quite certain when I said on one of the above-mentioned forums that Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu are separate styles, but then doubt came on me. To quote from "Koryu bujutsu": "Founder Araki Mataemon trained under Yagyu Munenori of the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, and was granted permission to use the Yagyu name in his own school's name by Yagyu Jubei." This left me wondering how much of his training came to influence the style he founded, i.e. whether anything in the Yagyu Shingan-ryu is related to Shinkage-ryu.

The rest are related to what was discussed in the Sword Arts forums (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=5419) regarding Ueshiba and Seagal having presumably practised Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. Somebody mentioned jujutsu being practised in YSR, which, I believe, is the resulting of mixing the two styles. Could somebody, please, confirm that there is none? Also, somebody else (on the Russian forums) said that Mr. Seagal used to live a few weeks each year in the Yagyu village, that's where he might have practised the YSR. I believe, this should be easy to check for those interested.

Thank you.

Addition: Could anyone comment on the school called "Yagyu Shinken Itto-ryu" or something like? I've never heard about it, but would be careful not to assume anything yet.

[Dave Lowry]

My seniors and betters in YSR are more qualified to answer some of your questions, but:

Steve Seagal never lived in Yagyu-zato. To my knowledge, he has never made such a claim. (Not sure where he'd have lived if he'd wanted to, unless he camped out in the junior high school yard. The town is not too much more than a wide spot in the road.)
Even if he had, he'd have had a tough time studying YSR there. It has not been taught there, I don't think, for a very long time. There is a kendo dojo there, Maskisaka Dojo. That's all.
In all his movies and in watching him teach in person, I have never seen Mr. Seagal do a single thing with a sword or his body that resembled anything in YSR. Again, to my knowledge he has never made any claims related to the ryu.

Cordially,

[Dave Lowry]

My seniors and betters in YSR are more qualified to answer some of your questions, but:

Steve Seagal never lived in Yagyu-zato. To my knowledge, he has never made such a claim. (Not sure where he'd have lived if he'd wanted to, unless he camped out in the junior high school yard. The town is not too much more than a wide spot in the road.)
Even if he had, he'd have had a tough time studying YSR there. It has not been taught there, I don't think, for a very long time. There is a kendo dojo there, Maskisaka Dojo. That's all.
In all his movies and in watching him teach in person, I have never seen Mr. Seagal do a single thing with a sword or his body that resembled anything in YSR. Again, to my knowledge he has never made any claims related to the ryu.

If I may ask, what is it you fellows in Russia are smoking?

Cordially,

[Andrei Arefiev]

Thank you, Mr. Lowry. As I said, it's what has been said about Mr. Seagal, not something that I talk or even care much about.

And, to tell you the truth, I don't smoke :) It's maybe these hot days that we finally got, although they promise the cold coming back by the weekend.

Also, we here are in a position much worse than in most other places, regarding reliable information on budo, especially all things koryu. Books in English are hard to obtain and, worse still, there still aren't that many people who can read them. Some (in particular the Draeger series) have been translated, but the latest paperback of "Classical Bujutsu" that I saw was terrible (never even bothered to check the translation, one look at the picture quality sufficed). It's worth still with Japanese (mine was just good enough to check the lineages of the two ryuha in question in "Nihon Kobudo Soran" and see that they have no names in common). So, it's not as much the question of what we are smoking as of what we are reading and who we are listening to.

(In case I sound like I'm offended by your comment, no, I'm not. I'm just sad about this situation. Actually, in the last two days I heard and learned too many things here I didn't like, and I'm now wondering what could be the best thing to do about it.)

Thank you :smilejapa

[Meik Skoss]

(Yagyu) Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu are totally different ryu. If you look hard at the latter's kata, there are some indications of (Y)SR influence on YSgR, but not much more.

Ueshiba Morihei never studied Shinkage-ryu to the best of my knowledge, though he probably absorbed a bit of the technique from seeing it done by Gejo Kosaburo, an associate of Takeshita Isamu (who helped Ueshiba a lot when he was getting established in Tokyo).

As for Seagal studying Shinkage-ryu in Yagyu-zato on a part-time/occasional basis, Dave Lowry's right: there is no Shinkage-ryu practice there, just a bit of kendo. The Masakisaka Dojo is quite a nice place, but it's more of a keikoba for local school kendo clubs and a gasshukujo for groups from other places. So I rather doubt there is any substance to that statement. He's certainly never trained with any of the major Shinkage-ryu teachers, or I'd've heard about it. There aren't many non-Japanese who've done so, and I know pretty near all of 'em.

Hope this helps.

[Pavel Rott]

Hi, Andrei, I can see that you got here first. I was contemplaiting about posting the similar questions here but my procrastination got the best of me.

Let me expand the Andrei's inqiries a bit, since the discussion that we had had touched not only the relationship between Yagyu Shinkage ryu and Yagyu Shingan ryu, but also establishement of the latter.

When I tried to find out any information regaring the establishement of Yagyu Shingan ryu, I immediately found the qute that Andrey supplied (from koryu.com):
Systems: taijutsu (jujutsu), kenjutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, iaijutsu
Date founded: early 1600s
Founded by: Araki Mataemon, 1584-1637
Present representative/headmaster: 10th soke Muto Masao
Primarily located in: Kanagawa Prefecture

But then here at ebudo "Classical budo" was quoted: "Ushu Tatewaki founded what would become the Yagyu Shingan Ryu in pre-Edo times. Some generations of headmasters later, in the Edo period, when Takenaga Naoto received official permission from Yagyu Tajima no Kami to name his ryu the Yagyu Shingan Ryu, the martial curriculum was changed."

And then just to add to my confusion, Prof. Bodiford wrote:"According to Yagyû Shinganryû scrolls sometime around 1600 a person from Sendai named Takenaga Hayato (a.k.a. Jikinyû) traveled to Edo where he became an acquaintance and, eventually, a friend of Yagyû Munenori (1571--1646). Takenaga already had formulated his own martial system called Shinganryû. Munenori was so impressed by Takenaga´s abilities (so say the documents) that Munenori granted him permission to preface the name of his style with the extremely prestigious "Yagyû" name."

Three persons are mentioned (unless it's the same name with different kanji reading :) I have to admit that I am totally confused.

Here is my first question: are these people related or what quote should I believe ? Is there a reliable information regaring the founder of Yagyu Shingan ryu or after 400 years it is almost impossible to say ?

Second - related to Steven Seagal and YSR. I saw 2 short clips of Hatsuo Matsuoka, one is a bokken kata (said to be "Yagyu ryu sambon ju kata") and another is a jo kata ("Hozoin ryu kata-ippon"). Can you please look at them and say whether they look like anything you recognize ?
URLS:
http://aikido.bugeisha.ru/video/b4.avi
http://aikido.bugeisha.ru/video/urok_b_5.mpg

And Andrei, I respectully disagree with your grim outlook about the state of available information in Russia. Given some determination, it is quite possible to investigate _any_ claim. As for fraudulent/false/misleading information - there is plenty of it everywhere.

Thank you.

[Pavel Rott]

double post

[Andrei Arefiev]

Meik,

Thanks a lot for the info. Really, the main question was about the possible connection between the two ryuha.

After checking the lineages in "Nihon Kobudo Soran", I kinda lost any doubts regarding them being separate, but thought it might still be useful to ask. And, as Pavel mentions, there might be some misunderstanding of the Draeger quote that'd better be resolved.

Pavel,

I'm afraid, I don't share your optimism. True, more information is becoming available and there are more people who are ready to investigate it, but still it's rather difficult to find sources to cross-check claims and references, that would also be widely known and available. I mean, if there were, the whole issue (that I think you know about) wouldn't have arisen.

And, before you ask, no, it's not that issue I had in mind when I said about recent events. But, with those too, the availability of decent information in Russian would make life so much easier.

Addition: Here, I just thought of another thing. Are the observable "indications" of Shinkage-ryu in Yagyu Shingan-ryu due to the remote historical relation or to the fact that among the more recent generations there were some who trained in both? Or is it possible at all to know the answer to this?

With best wishes,

[ouch!]

Are the observable "indications" of Shinkage-ryu in Yagyu Shingan-ryu due to the remote historical relation or to the fact that among the more recent generations there were some who trained in both? Or is it possible at all to know the answer to this?

I realize this thread is more than a few years old, but I'll offer my 2 cents anyway. The late headmaster of Yagyu Shingan-ryu Taijutsu, Mutoh Masao, received Menkyo Kaiden in Owari Yagyu Shinkage-ryu from Ohtsubo Shihou. Over the past few decades, both styles have been practiced in unison and are considered to compliment each other. I can not answer your questions with any certainty, but it is unlikely, Mutoh, a regarded budo historian, would attempt to fuse the two together. The subtle similarities most likely existed long before Mutoh introduced cross-training.

[fifthchamber]

Hello David,
I hope all is well with yourself and training?

Have you noticed many similarities in the sword training of Shingan Ryu and that you've seen in Shinkage Ryu?Since Shinkage Ryu is rather singular in many of it's kamae and techniques I was wondering what you make of the "join" between the two..

It makes sense that someone who had studied the Shinkage Ryu would use that as a base for the Kenjutsu he added to his own ryuha, but I was wondering how far you think that went?

It would be fun to check those kinds of things in my own art, but Takeuchi Ryu's Ken and the origins of it are rather less clear, perhaps being some form of family art passed down through the Minamoto...However, the similarities between what we do and what the schools that were formed after us do is rather incredible and I wanted to know what your own observations of that were..

All the best.

Ben Sharples

[ouch!]

Hi Ben,

I'll send you a private message in response to your questions.