kenjutsu and Atemi with the Butt of the Sword?

[Brad Hoffner]

Is there a style of kenjutsu that emphasizes the use of striking with the butt of the sword? I have seen this before and was wondering if any styles of kenjutsu in Japan emphasize this?

Thanks

Brad Hoffner

[pboylan]

Hi Brad,

I don't know of any schools that emphasize striking with the kashira (butt), though there are many that make use of it in there curriculum. I guess the question would be "Why emphasize striking with the butt right next to your hand when you've got a really sharp pointy thing that adds 3 feet to your reach?"

I know Eishin Ryu teaches several butt strikes to the face and solar plexus, and I've seen other ryuha do them, so they are taught, they just aren't emphasized.

Peter Boylan

[Meik Skoss]

Anent the question whether or not koryu waza include use of the tsukagashira or ishizuki for atemi, I do agree with Peter Boylan's reply somewhat, but think he's not completely correct in terms of the degree of emphasis.

There is a definite inclusion of atemiwaza in a number of classical martial arts schools (kenjutsu, naginatajutsu, sojutsu). Toda-ha Buko-ryu, Tendo-ryu, Shinto-ryu (a school of kenjutsu associated with Shinto Muso-ryu), as well as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu, all make use of atemiwaza. Kashima Shinto-ryu and Katori Shinto-ryu do a *lot* of it in certain techniques, with the atemi being what amounts to the kimarite. Don't forget Araki-ryu and Kiraku-ryu, although they're better known for their grappling than their sword technique.

If I'm not mistaken, Takenouchi-ryu, several Yoshin-ryu, Shibukawa-ryu, and Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu also do a fair bit of striking at close quarters. As Peter B. said, it doesn't seem to be all that important in terms of overt technique in most cases (excepting Kashima and Katori Shinto-ryu), but it's definitely an important part of the waza of most koryu. Where it gets *really* interesting, though, is seeing when kenjutsu segures into kumiuchi, especially in Takenouchi-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu. It's neat stuff!

[Paul Steadman]

Hi Brad,

I agree with Meik, the Muso Jukiden Eishin Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu that I've seen do make ample use of the butt of the sword in striking- tsuka-ate/kashira-ate.

The saya (scabbard) can also be used to receive attacks and to strike, I think its called tezure (?).

I've also seen the tsuka and the saya used to tie the agressor up with various joint-locks and throws. The jujutsu like techniques are augmented by the grip/scabbard of the sword.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

[Brad Hoffner]

Does any of the Aikiken training used in Aikido use striking with the butt of sword or bokken?

Brad Hoffner

[Meik Skoss]

B. Hoffner writes: "Does any of the aikiken training used in aikido use striking with the butt of sword or bokken?"

Probably not. Certainly the waza done by Hikitsuchi and Saito showed no evidence of atemiwaza when I worked with them, nor did Shirata's technique. That's probably because weapons training in aikido isn't really meant to be a means of "combat" so much as it is training in mind and body working in unison (there! I avoided the word, "harmony").

From a koryu viewpoint, although several of the aikiken techniques show clear evidence of the school they were derived from, they are a bit tame because there is very little attention paid to proper ma-ai, choshi and hyoshi, hassuji or kurai/kokoroe. Anyway, that's what I saw as an aikido student between '73~'97, when I returned to the U.S. But maybe things are different (better?) now?

Obviously, I'm a bit jaundiced in my way of looking at it, but I trust people know what I mean. I still do a fair bit of Hikitsuchi's and Saito's aikiken stuff, albeit with a little different feeling to them. I'd love to be able to recall the stuff Shirata did, but that wasn't something I trained in a great deal, so... And Nishio's stuff? If people are ever able to train with him, that's a MUST DO. He is nothing less than terrific. Wonderful technique. Great teacher. A fine man. The Real Deal.

Hope this helps answer your question, Brad.

[chrismoses]

My first sword style was heavily influenced by Nishio Sensei so we had several techniques that used the tsuka for strikes. It wasn't a heavy emphasis, but they were there. My current style also uses them (in addition to kojiri strikes and headbuts!) but I wouldn't call it a heavy emphasis.

I am reminded however of a video of a demonstration at my school's annual taikai in Japan, where a school which specialized as bodyguards did all sorts of cool things with the katana still in the saya. The premise was explained to me as a series of kata for when you are not allowed to draw your sword, but are required to defend yourself or your liege. I wish I could remember the name of the school, but it was really fascinating.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hello All,

Could someone define the terms:

choshi and hyoshi,

hassuji -- angle of the blade when cutting I believe

kurai/kokoroe

Thanks!
Ron Tisdale

[Meik Skoss]

R. Tisdale wrote: "Could someone define the terms: 1) choshi and hyoshi, 2) hassuji (angle of the blade when cutting, I believe), 3) kurai/kokoroe."

Sorry 'bout that. The first two terms, hyoshi and choshi, are rather similar in some respects. When I posted my response to B. Hoffner's question, I meant hyoshi in the sense of "timing" and choshi as "rhythm." Hyoshi is the interval (in time) between beats, choshi is the pattern of the beat(s).

Hassuji literally means "blade angle/line" and I meant it as "angle/line of attack."

Kurai literally means "position or rank (as in society)," in this instance I meant it as "mental preparedness along with physical stance" in an attempt to distinguish it from a merely physcial posture (kamae). It is a specialized term in Shinkage-ryu and carries with it the connotation of both physical and mental dimension that is central to the concept of "kage" in that system.

Kokoroe can mean a number of things -- it depends on the context. I meant it as the equivalent of kurai, more or less, connoting a certain mental state that is linked to the physical stance of a swordsman.

Hope that helps.

[Ron Tisdale]

Thank you Sir! It is amazing how much I don't know!

Ron Tisdale

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by Brad Hoffner
Does any of the Aikiken training used in Aikido use striking with the butt of sword or bokken?

Brad Hoffner

In Saito Sensei's aikiken, if there are is anything that isn't point or edge, it much be in a henka that I haven't seen (quite possible). If you're interested in it, explore it (and e-mail me about it!), that's what the henka are supposed to be for.

I think there are suggestions of this in the aikijo. For example, at steps 22 and 23 of the 31 kumijo.

I don't know diddly about anyone else's aikiken.

Given the introduction of the koryu to the more general population in the last few years and other factors (like Nishio Sensei) , I am very interested in where the aikiken and aikijo are headed in the next, say, decade.

Regards,

[hg]

In Iai-Jutsu, you usually strike with the tsuka
1) if the
opponent is too near, so that you have no time/space
to attack him with the blade effectively. Once you have
drawn the blade (what my teacher calls kenjutsu in contrast to iai-jutsu),
it does not make much sense to use the tsuka because you
don't have the reach as with the blade,
2) except if you distancing was lousy and you end up too
near again in front of the aite:-)

Musou jikiden eishin ryu Iai uses a strike with the tsuka
in the "yukichigai" (okuiai,tachiwaza) and in the "yamaoroshi" (chuden, tatehiza no bu), which corresponds to case 1.In the Kumitachi, in "ganseki othoshi", shitachi
pushes away the uchitachis tsuka with his tsuka and then strikes him with the tsukagashira, which is case 2.