Koryu & Mythology

Guys,

The Tim McVeigh debate has been interesting and got me thinking. Our nation has wrestled with tragedy, heros, grief and now justice. These are the building blocks of mythology and mythological themes. As contemporary Americans I wonder if some of our societal problems are exacerbated by the fact that we no longer embrace our cultural mythologies as we did in the past. Sadly our childrens mythological heros / themes may include millionaire basketball players dressing like women and spewing virulent language. Maintaining old cultural/mythological themes is especially difficult in the melting pot of an eclectic America. Bill Moyers in his interviews with mythologist Joseph Campbell addressed this phenomon much better than I could. Classical mythology still speaks to many Americans but unfortunately it is becoming more a whisper to those people without the support or influence of decent role models. Tim McVeigh is a good case of a man who made up his own mythology because no significant mythology spoke to him or helped him understand humanity. Too bad for him, but worse, too bad for us.

Cultural mythology is a subtle thing but as people interested in Japanese budo the cultural mythology of Japan obviously speaks to us. It has seeped into me in very subtle ways. Maybe it is the cultural mythology of Japan that makes Japanese martial disciplines "Japanese". Is it mythological themes and influences that make us study so antiquated a pursuit as swordsmanship or naginata. Do these Japanese mythologies affect some of our perceptions of moral obligation and responsability? I would really be interested in the opinions of those who trained in Japan for extended periods of time. Much has been discussed here on the comparison of koryu and gendai budo traditions. At times it seemed that an important aspect of the discussion was being missed. Much head scratching was done on both sides of the discussion as if we couldn't put into words exactly why some of us are so dedicated to the arts we study. Could it be so subtle a thing as cultural mythology? Does Japanese cultural mythology speak to us in different ways and effect our appreciation and pursuit of different martial disciplines. I tend to believe cultural mythology had a great deal to do with my choice to pursue traditional jujutsu as diligently as I have. To someone like Ellis, Meik, or Dave perhaps the allure of Japanese mythological themes was much more great and what subtly drove them to dedicate so much time to the study of koryu in Japan.

Toby Threadgill

[Earl Hartman]

Gee, Toby, why doncha ask a HARD question instead of lobbing this meatball over the plate? :)

For me, I just grew up around too many Japanese Americans and saw too many Mifune movies when I was a kid. Then I saw a kendo demonstration when I was 17, said "Dude!! Cool!! I wanna be able to do THAT!" and was in the dojo the next week. Been there ever since in one form or another.

Since Americans are brought up to believe that all progress is good, we are subtly influenced to believe that, therefore, things that have been overtaken by progress must be inferior. So we discard them, whether they be aspects of technology, morality, or guiding philosophies. This leads to the rootlessness of modern American society that everyone seems to notice. But, people crave certainties, or, at least, some ethos to believe in. Budo in general, and koryu in particular, provides one. However, the real secret of budo, in my opinion, and why it has such a hold on those who have come to know it, is that while to outsiders it seems static and dedicated to the idea that everyone must be forced into the same mold, this is not the case at all. Budo preserves traditon, yes, but built into the system is the expectation and the necessity for each practitioner to interpret the art and make it his or her own, thus subtly altering it in some way and personalizing it. Properly understood, budo provides the ideal vehicle for both the preservation of a living tradition and its constant renewal. There is nothing in modern American society that comes close to this. However, I suspect that a very similar dynamic is at work in traditional Western arts such as classical ballet and opera.

In any case, America is based on the destruction of cultural mythologies, and in any case, the heterogeneous nature of American culture makes it quite difficult for there to be meta-myths to which everyone subscribes. Besides, our myths are always under attack as the noxious weed of the dreaded DPPPs (Dead Pale Penis People). Mom, the flag, and apple pie are going to mean different things to different people. So, when we get a mythology a la Joseph Campbell, what happens? George Lucas gets his hands on it and turns it into something on the side of a plastic drink cup from McDonalds.

[rbrown]

Not to change the subject but I would say that it's not so much a lack of cultural mythology as a lack of "American Culture". As Americans we've embraced everything and all cultures but in the process we've lost having a culture of our own.
Many people who embrace not only martial arts but pottery, yoga, wood carving etc.. do so because there is a real history, a proper ettiquite and a form for their avocation.
When you read many of the books and articles on traditional martial arts what is attractive to many, seems to be the sense of belonging, of having people from different backgrounds agree to follow a set of "rules" or code of conduct. A "culture" that has a purpose, but also a proper way of doing everything from bowing to tying a belt.
When I meet someone from another country-- almost any country but ours--- they may not know why they do something a certain way only that they should do it that way. In America it seems the question is always "why?" and if someone doesn't come up with a reasonable (for that person) explanation, then they do it any way they please. We then say personal freedom, personal choice, but never stop to think about freedom or choice of the other person.
Didn't mean to go off on a tangent but I work with youth and see the results daily of not having a common culture and set of rules to live by in public.

Richard Brown

[Ellis Amdur]

Toby -

I think you are right on target. According to Jung, at the core of any myth that still carries meaning are "archetypes." These are the ways that the psyche is structured - it's texture is deliniated through images which are expressed in dreams, in fantasy, and on a cultural level, in myth.

The Japanese classical martial arts seem to crackle with a depth that affects the spirit - not in a New Agey way, but certainly shakes me up in ways hard to explain. The blue fire glint of polished steel, the scorn for one's own human weakness, and the attraction of a way of living that is the antithesis of sloppy. That many practitioners fall short is as irrelevant. There is an archetypal power that is beyond the individuals. I can think of several men, famous teachers, who, on a social/human level are quite mundane or quite flawed. But when they move, it is as if they are possessed by spirit(s) far greater than themselves.

It's sort of like music. Any graduate student of composition can compose a piece in the manner of Bach, for example. But they have no depth, they don't spring from the day-to-day sweat and passion and religious devotion of the churches Bach worshipped. (Mozart, emerging in a later generation is, to me, the equivalent of a system like the one you practice - instead of being invented out of whole cloth, you stand on and are lifted up by the predecessors of your own innovative instructor).

Japanese martial tradition grabs me down deep, nineteen generations deep, all of them demanding a loyalty to what they were trying to accomplish and trying to pass on. I don't mean that the demand is somehow to follow a rote learning without deviation, anymore that a son is supposed to be exactly like a father down to the genetic code.

I find this so hard to explain - but it is as if ten's, hundreds of men (and in Buko Ryu, women as well,) many of whom who have laid their lives on the line, have mapped out a way of living that is revealed not in a set of words, but in a set of actions - neuro-physical organization. The movements create character in me that is tinged by that of all who went before. Jung used to refer to this by the word "numinous" - the archetype, the myth, the dance, whatever carries a kind of light, energy, power. I think of the difference between, for example, the headmaster of Jigen Ryu, doing the simplest of movements, the sight of which stops me in my tracks, and then of some individuals who have created their own "ryu" with swords or others who have homoginized various ryu into a "new" system. Both of these latter types display a fair amount of skill, but whom I have as much interest in watching them as I would the second runnerup in a Midwestern church social's tango contest (compare to a tango in a seedy, smokey bar in Argentina! - the same breathtaking fire as Togo sensei).

Respect

Ellis Amdur

[Kendoguy9]

hey everyone,

wow what a small world it is. just recently at school i took an East Asian geography class and one of the topics on our plates was modernity. it seems a very popular topic for college professors is Japan and westernization. what we got to was that in many cultures, women represented traditional culture and were something of the keepers of culture. anyway what the conversation led to was what kind of a culture does America have?!? almost all of it is borrowed from some other culture and really isn't our own, and we have no reason to do it other then it's cool or we want for lack of our own culture. what do we have? I would say in lack of culture we have mass consumerism. only in America do you find stores like Walmart and Sam's Club or BJ's (warehouse stores) a store that is open 24-7 and you can buy almost anything for super cheap. i equate Americans to the proverbial fat kid. feeling emptiness inside the fat kid goes home and eats food to fill the emotional void (of no friends or no skills in sports etc.). we too are like that. instead of doing cool traditional fun things (such as a traditional dances or some sort of craft) we go to the mall and buy junk fads we don't really need, to fill the void. and like the fat kid we are never really satisfied because our consumption isn't based on need but on an emptiness that mass consumerism leaves us.

do we have alternatives? yes, and four come to mind. try to get into a traditional American thing. an example of that here in Baltimore might be skipjack sailing or in other parts of the nation a folk art etc. another popular idea to follow is nationalism. you can go nuts for the stars and stripes and have a huge cookout on the 4th of July. fundamentalist religion is another alternative. i have a feeling that many people realize that this consumer culture we have created is ultimately shallow and in a stark reaction have opposed it with something very far from it. finally (the one i think most of us have chosen) is to steal someone else's culture and assimilate it into our own. i don't think it is by accident that things like Scottish games, Ren-fests, Cherry blossom festivals, Chinese New Years parades etc. have become so popular recently. geneology is becoming very popular.

the point of this was that many people in other countries such as Japan, or China or anywhere really actually want and embrace this consumer culture we have here in America. i have many friends from other countries (Nigeria, Japan, China, Germany etc.) who actually like the consumer culture because it is cool and it is free. very few cultural restrictions. it's no wonder kids shoot each other for tennis shoes or for sport ... they don't know what else to do!

:burnup:

sorry for the long rant
gambatte!!!

sorry for the long rant
gambatte!!!

[Rob]

Fascinating topic.

I would suggest that the interest in Budo in general and the Koryu in particular stems not from a search for a cultural mythology lacking in ones own culture but rather that the mythology and world view that these arts represent perhaps eptomise a world view and subconscious striving that has already been built from an individuals own experiences.

I have been born and raised in the UK which is no way lacking it's own cultural icons, history and myths. Many of these cultural myths are easily recongnisable in other cultures, every nation seems to have it's own 'Robin Hood' for example.

However since I first saw the Japanse martial arts I have been drawn to them. When you talk to almost anybody who has studied the arts seriously they tend to use phrases like drawn to, fascinated by, absorbed by.

From my own discussions with the various commited Budoka I have met over the years it seems to me that there are a number of common needs that they have which these arts satisfy.

The central tennent seems to be control. At their heart martial arts are about being able to control ones destiny and environment through control of oneself and where necessary others. Additionally Budo is about self improvement, central to the core of Budo is the idea that it is possible to improve and better oneself through constant practice.

To bring back the discussion back to where we started I've often thought that much of the mythology which is represented in older cultures is easily seen in American culture through that most american of cultural forms, the comic book. In many ways for me Batman epitomises the idea of the true budoka, a driven individual striving to improve oneself and then use those skills to improve the world around them.

Where I presume the practitioners of Koryu perhaps differ (and this is pure speculation until such time as I find a ) is in their sense of history and connection with the past. For the practicioner of gendai arts and especially the 'modern' western styles, the art it's techniques and it's application is enought.

For the member of the Koryu, (certainly for me as a Koryu wannabe !) it is the sense of flow, the connection with past and the notion of being something which is greater than any individual must also be part of the attraction.

I would suggest however that this need to belong and to be part of is rooted in an indivuals development and satisfied through their identification with the cultural myths and ideals of another culture rather than simple created by contact with that culture.

As a final point (is that a sigh of relief I hear?) I would like to point out that some of our esteemed posters on this very board, Messrs Amdur and Lowry,and the Skosses among others are adding to a specific sub culture. Whilst I may never find a teacher or join a Ryu, through their writings I can at least look through someone elses eyes and stand in their shoes and while I have now doubt I still over romantacise their experiences and under empahsise their sacrifices and commitment at least my knowledge and if you like my Koryu myths are rooted in some sort of sense of reality.

Earl,

You stated:

"So, when we get a mythology a la Joseph Campbell, what happens? George Lucas gets his hands on it and turns it into something on the side of a plastic drink cup from McDonalds."

LOL..... I understand where your coming from but I think that this version of commercialism is not necessarily a bad thing. Movies are a great way to tell mythological tales in todays world. It's the message in the myth that's important not so much the method of transmitting it. I guess the argument could be made that commercialism cheapens the myth but I'm not necessarily convinced of that. Campball and Lucas were bigtime buddies and George Lucas consulted Joseph Campbell in creation of the Star Wars storyline (which was greatly influenced by Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress") The fallen father, seduced by his darker psyche, who is redeemed by and through his love for his son is so rich in mythological themes and significance that I'm glad a MacDonalds drink cup may influence some little kid to rent that movie one weekend. Maybe that story will touch some kid the way "To kill a Mockingbird" touched me. That movie literally changed my world view as a child.... and talk about archetypes.... Atticus Finch......Man oh man!

Back on topic there's the "Seven Samurai", "Chushingura", "Ran", "Kwaidan" etc...These Japanese movies are busting with some of the greatest universally recognized hero characterizations ever put on film. Archetypes for sure, but with a subtly different quality from their western counterparts..... something I can't quite get my hands on.

Great stuff!

Toby Threadgill

[Earl Hartman]

Toby:

I've got only one thing to say:

Kurosawa rox!

Lucas sux!

Kurosawa sits on the right hand of G-d. Lucas is a fraud and a poseur, and the "myth" that he is purveying is pure poison. The first SW was a fun romp, but his vision of the universe is truly evil. Oh, so Darth Vader is "redeemed" by his love for his son after murdering billions, if not trillions, of people with no compunction? Sorry, DV doesn't deserve redemption. He deserves to burn in Hell and drink lava for the rest of eternity. Lucas' vision of a universe dominated by genetically superior "warrior sages" is fascist to its core. I don't want my kids learning anything from a steaming pile like that. Yoda? Don't make me laugh.

I don't think that there is a director on the planet who, while claiming Kurosawa as his inspiration, has so thoroughly and completely missed the point of Kurosawa's vision. Kurosawa was a true humanist, a real mensch, and his films really show his concern for people. Lucas doesn't give a damn about people. I don't think I've ever seen a more offensive and silly film than "The Phantom Menace". I absolutely hated it (OK, the special effects were great, the light saber fights were cool, and Natalie Portman is pretty, but other than that...). Lucas isn't qualified to do Kurosawa's laundry.

OK, rant over.

I will agree with you about "To Kill A Mockingbird", though. A great film.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree with the posters who have said that it is the identifiable tradition and personal nature of the classical ryu that is one of its attractions. I have, after more than 25 years of practicing kyudo under a variety of teachers and according to the modern standardized method, joined the Urakami Domonkai, a kyudo group dedicated to preserving the lineage and teachings of Urakami Sakae Hanshi of the Heki To Ryu. Should I wish to do so, I can research the lineage of his school, the Heki To Ryu (aka Heki Ryu Insai-ha), all the way back to its original founder, Yoshida Genpachiro Shigeuji, or, as he is known by his "bow name", Issuiken Insai. I now learn from Urakami Sakae Hanshi's daughter in law, Urakami Hiroko Hanshi. There is a coherence and and an integrity to the method and the approach which has been maintained precisely because, although members of this school actively participate in modern kyudo events, they have remained fundamentally faithful to the teachings of the ryu. I must say that this personal connection is the most important thing. It is as though I am a member of a family, with all of its quirks and idiosyncracies. I have entered into the "flow" of the ryu, which stretches back into the past and extends into the future, a future which depends, in part, ON ME. This personal stake in the ryu is what gives it its powerful attraction. There is a real feeling of being comrades dedicated to a common purpose, as opposed to being just individuals pursuing personal goals. This is one of the main things that separates the ryu from the modern disciplines, which are much more diffuse, bureaucratic, and standardized. This robs them of the feeling of personal connection.

It's sort of like buying the cheapest olive oil at Costco rather than hunting down the best Cold Pressed By Hand Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil at some out-of the-way Mom and Pop shop somewhere in the back alleys of a small Tuscan town, which, after you taste it, you say: "Yep, this is the best olive oil in the world!"

Earl,

" I don't think I've ever seen a more offensive and silly film than "The Phantom Menace". I absolutely hated it "

ROFLMAO!

Agreed!

I don't agree with you in general about Lucas but the Phantom Menace story line sucked big time. It's like he lost his focus completely. I guess he went for the kids only, forgetting that he had sizable following above the age of ..uh 7. It started with "Return of the Jedi" and the Ewoks. Argggggh.

As for the contradiction in the Star Wars myth concerning the evil DV committed? Heck, What about the Tanakah ? Yeeowww. We don't need to get too specific but there's some very difficult mythological themes to justify in the name of G-d if you take them literally. Mass murder , Rape, Genocide. Given the rich company of religious mythology, I'll cut Lucas a break on Darth Vader.

Back to Japan

I agree Akira Kurosawa.... and Masaki Kobayashi Rock bigtime. Kwaidan blows me away everytime I see it. The cinematography and storylines are so well executed that I am just mezmerized. "Hoichi the Earless" especially puts me in a trance. It's interesting, Japanese ghost stories / myths are so gothic in nature but they contain that unique Japanese twist that just pours ice water down my back. Nobody else has ever done anything quite like these guys. Ohh Ahhh.

Joseph Campbell was really onto something in his contention that almost all cultural myths have a common source but there's no denying that the Japanese flavor of these common themes is unique. I think I'm going to go home tonght, watch "Ran" and drink an Ichiban. :beer:

Tobs

[Earl Hartman]

Toby:

A discussion of Tanakh is a little beyond the scope of this particular BB, so I won't go into that. Suffice it to say that there are reams and reams of rabbinical commentary that turn most of the casual interpretations of biblical stories on their heads. And even G-d didn't destroy an entire world just to impress somebody. There was a moral reason for the Flood, for example (agree or not), but G-d didn't just say, "OK, I've got to impress this rebel chick with how powerful I am, so I'll just off her entire planet for effect". Anyway, I can kinda see yer point, (but only kinda) but we would need a lotta long nights and copious amounts of beer to get through this. Especially the genocide stuff. It is not what it seems to be at all.

"Hoichi The Earless" is my absolute fave of all of the stories in Kwaidan. Totally good stuff.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and commit what a lot of people on this board will probably consider blasphemy, but I really didn't like "Ran" that much at all. The cinematography was brilliant and the film was beautiful to look at, but it left me cold. For me, it lacked the humanity that I had come to expect from Kurosawa. Besides, Nakadai, normally one of my favorite actors, just devoured all of the scenery in sight. And those gallons and gallons of fire engine-red blood! I just laughed. It was so far removed from the realism that had been Kurosawa's trademark.

What do you think of "Seppuku"? I think it's one of Nakadai's best roles.

[Chuck Clark]

Great stuff, guys!

I agree with most of what you're both saying so I'll continue to lurk and enjoy. Since I'm acquainted with both of you, I can remember the glint in your eye when you get into this sort of discussion and can picture you both just now. Keep it up.

Cheers,

[Joseph Svinth]

While "America has no history" was the stated position of various Anglophilic US intellectuals of the 1880s, it's kind of a dated position a century later. After all, parts of Florida have been continuously settled by people of European and African descent since the 1540s, the Quebecois and the Mexicans have vibrant cultures (as does New Orleans), and the Indians/First Nations peoples have been here for between six and eighteen thousand years, depending on which group you're talking about.

And for that matter, while in the late nineteenth century there were still a lot of governments that traced roots to the Middle Ages, today the USA has the world's third oldest continuously operating government. (The Icelanding Althing dates to ca. 1000 AD, and the modern British government dates to the post-Cromwell reforms of the late 17th century.)

So, while you can look to McDonalds as the symbol of culture if you wish, don't forget that "Japan Times" has quoted Japanese schoolchildren asking if they have McDonalds in America, and the merchants owned a lot of Edo even pre-1868. Meanwhile, in a nod to those Dead White Males, it should also be noted that American culture also includes bourbon, national parks, handsewn quilts, and the Arizona Memorial. In short, all this is a long way of saying that the USA has its hallowed grounds. You just have to stop and read the roadside signs instead of always speeding by at 70 mph.

As for the topic at hand, IMO the allure of Japanese MA is the sense of community that they promise. Wa is a concept many North Americans don't understand real well, especially as juveniles and young adults, and for many of them, the first place they find it is in a martial arts class. A Skinner box, in other words -- you got a reward once, and so you keep returning to the place where the reward was given, in hopes of getting more...

[Kendoguy9]

Joe,
You are very right, there is some very rich culture here in America. I think that I am very fortunate to live in Baltimore Maryland, one of the oldest cities in the USA and a treasure trove of history and culture. Not even an hour West of me lives a small community of Amish who make a living by traditional arts, crafts, and food. We in Baltimore are fortunate to have a museum that has been rated one of the top five in the world. But many of these traditional quilts, and such are being very quickly replaced with blue light specials from Kmart and such places. Most monuments aren't really culture they are nationalism a celebration of government not old traditions we don't want to die out (how many people care about skipjack sailing? how many people know what a skipjack is?).

This cultural shift from tradition to consumerism is the same thing that is killing off our mythology and making the mythology of our children the cross-dressing millionare basketball player and pot smoking gangsta' rapper.

I don't think there is anything wrong with stealing myths from other countries to help suplant some traditions here in America. You know the kids that usually do traditional Scottish dance, or practice budo, or study any other folky/mythology filled art don't go around shooting each other for tennis shoes or drugs.

I think Toby was pointing in this direction, but, I don't think it is a small accident school shootings have gone up in recent years. In fact, perhaphs, angry children who have no real mythology to look to are now looking upon Colobine high school as a new (and very negetive) mythology to follow. I don't have any answers to this, if I did I would be famous. :confused:

gambatte!!!

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Kendoguy9
Joe,
But many of these traditional quilts, and such are being very quickly replaced with blue light specials from Kmart and such places.
This cultural shift from tradition to consumerism is the same thing that is killing off our mythology and making the mythology of our children the cross-dressing millionare basketball player and pot smoking gangsta' rapper.
You know the kids that usually do traditional Scottish dance, or practice budo, or study any other folky/mythology filled art don't go around shooting each other for tennis shoes or drugs.
I think Toby was pointing in this direction, but, I don't think it is a small accident school shootings have gone up in recent years. In fact, perhaphs, angry children who have no real mythology to look to are now looking upon Colobine high school as a new (and very negetive) mythology to follow. I don't have any answers to this, if I did I would be famous. :confused:
gambatte!!!

YAMANTAKA : I think you are quite right, my friend! And we shouldn't forget that the Consumer Society is killing tradition everywhere. In today's Japan, people study japanese traditions at Hiroshima University with our friend PETER GOLDSBURY and are amazed and surprised by things they didn't know about their own culture. You'd also be surprised by the fact that the martial arts' philosophy and theory are much more studied in the West than in the East. Ask almost every japanese about martial arts' theory and you're sure to get a dumb look. That's why even some japanese think that perhaps even the koryu won't survive if they will are not transplanted to the West. Incredible, don't you think so?:look:
Best

[Joseph Svinth]

I'll argue that those folk traditions die harder than people think, and that even there, the wa is critical. For example, my mother is a quilter, and she took first place or grand prize at least three times at the Western Washington Fair in Puyallup. Since The Puyallup is the fifth or sixth largest fair, in terms of attendance, in the US, this represents a reasonable accomplishment. Yet it isn't as if the quilts ever went on the bed, or that she was too poor to buy a Pendleton. Nor does she need the money, as to my knowledge, she's never sold one. (Given a bunch away, but never sold one.) Instead she likes hanging out with the other quilters. So a couple times a week she heads on down to the church, sews a bit, and comes on home. The product is clearly competent, but the companionship is ultimately more important. I honestly don't think that MA are all so much different.

As for the school shootings, they've been doing those since the introduction of reliable pocket pistols in the 1850s. In Texas, for example, Ben Thompson shot his first feller at fifteen, causing the Austin newspapers no end of outrage. Even drive-bys are hardly new. After all, Al Capone and Clyde Barrow were doing those in the 1920s. Read a newspaper from 1910, and you find earthquakes in Japan, civil war in Serbia, massacres in the Congo, corruption in Congress, and sportswriters complaining that ballplayers' salaries were paid more than the President of the United States. It's just that with television, everything seems more immediate.

[Mance Thompson]

While my experience living and training in Japan was short(only 2.5 yrs), I never got the feeling that the few Japanese that kept any old traditions alive did it out of a sense of cultural mythology. Rather, it seemed that in many cases it was something they started as a youth when perhaps they didn't quite appreciate the depth of what they were undertaking, and learned to respect and appreciate the path and pursuit of reaffirming ties to the past as they got older.

"Properly understood, budo provides the ideal vehicle for both the preservation of a living tradition and its constant renewal. There is nothing in modern American society that comes close to this. However, I suspect that a very similar dynamic is at work in traditional Western arts such as classical ballet and opera."

As Mr Hartman stated, there is a common perception that America has no traditions worth mentioning, but again as Mr Svinth pointed out, that is a very Anglocentric perspective(I guess the Native Americans don't count or maybe they aren't American). The problem for such widespread believe is in the way we are educated(until college bound, very few of us learn of much more than European history and a hodge podge of certain facts about American history that represent what has been handed down as our cultural canon-scary huh). For example, how many people have heard of the Gullah or Geechee traditions in the Sea Islands? A family friend named Mary Jackson is keeping alive a form of basketry that is a centuries old tradition transplanted from Africa. That it survived slavery and is still a vibrant expression of an important cultural artifact is miraculous in and of itself. However, it was only through my personal interest and luck that I had been exposed to these "lost" traditions, that I had even heard of her. Unless somehow tied to such traditions by locale, ethnicity, or interest, we grow up oblivious to the beautiful cultural heritage that abounds even in America.

Sorry to digress but to even think that Americans have no culture/traditions is a telling sign of how we've been culturally programmed(brainwashed) to ignore that which makes us who we are, perhaps an issue that Japanese society is also facing(and more the reason for to applaud the vital few that are helping carry those traditions into the future).

Hi,

In my original post I didn't claim there wasn't an American mythology but that much of the country's youth were disconnected from our mythology. Read this section of my original post:


" As contemporary Americans I wonder if some of our societal problems are exacerbated by the fact that we no longer embrace our cultural mythologies as we did in the past. Sadly our childrens mythological heros / themes may include millionaire basketball players dressing like women and spewing virulent language. Maintaining old cultural/mythological themes is especially difficult in the melting pot of an eclectic America. Bill Moyers in his interviews with mythologist Joseph Campbell addressed this phenomon much better than I could. Classical mythology still speaks to many Americans but unfortunately it is becoming more a whisper to those people without the support or influence of decent role models. "


I agree with Joe that we do have some wonderful American mythology. Stories like Paul Bunyon and Jonnie Appleseed are definitely mythic in form and substance. Regional & cultural societies like the Cajun and Amish are uniquely American. But as we become more cohesive many cultural elements of these societies are under duress. The Cajun and Creole languages are dying out although a resurgence in interest in them may revitalize them. (I have frequent contact with a charming aunt living on St Charles in N'orlean's named Lerabelle Robicheaux. I'll tell you some good Cajun jokes next time I see ya , Joe) Sadly something so culturally unique as southern blues music is viewed by many black youth as "old fashioned" Europeans and Japanese are embracing blues with a fervor of amazing proportions. Brings that old aphorism about "the grass is always greener" home huh?

Anyway...

One of the contentions by strict koryu practitioners is that the cultural aspects ( I believe, including specific associated mythologies) of koryu is almost impossible to transmit outside Japan. To some extent this is probably true but that reminds me of the similar debate in music circles that to really sing the blues you have to be poor & Black. On the other side of this debate is the fact that many of the cultural aspects of koryu are not from the fuedal era of their invention. Those original cultural aspects were supplanted by newer ones more appropriate (but still far outside the norm) in a more egalitarian society. I hope the core spirit, soul and mythology of koryu truly survive into the future but to do so many may be forced to survive outside Japan. It is up to those who teach them to figure out how to accomplish this enormous and difficult feat. No small challenge but not impossible IMHO.

Heck, due to my new position in the Takamura ryuha I am now struggling with a list of Shinto prayers / norito I am required to memorize and speak in perfect Japanese. Not exactly what a guy born in Ft Worth, Texas expected to spend his time doing when he walked into a Wado ryu dojo over 20 years ago. One of my close Japanese friends can't even understand the kanji because he says it's too old. He is amazed that I even care about this stuff. I am amazed he doesn't.

My..... the world is a strange place and as martial artists I guess we are among the strangest.


Toby Threadgill

[Earl Hartman]

I said that there is nothing in MODERN American society that comes close to the ethos of the koryu. I did not say that America has no cultural traditions. Gullah basket weaving is just as relevant, and known, to most Americans as koryu is to most Japanese.

A lot of Americans involved in budo, either modern or koryu, believe that somehow, becasue it is Japanese, all Japanese must be conscious of, and influenced by, the ethos of budo. In its modern forms, this is true, perhaps. This is not necessarily all to the good, either, depending on how you feel about it. Most Japanese have horror stories of being forced to do kendo or judo in high school. They hated it just as much as I hated PE, presided over, as it was, by fascistic and bitter failed Marine drill instructor types who, having not achieved their dreams of being real tough guys, vented their frustrations on all of their unwilling charges. No wonder so many young Japanese hate budo. It's something their fathers and grandfathers do. You know any kid in America who says: "Gramps does it? That must mean its cool!" I didn't think so.

I once had a surreal and offensive conversation with a Japanese woman who, while telling me how much she hated being forced to do kyudo in high school and how useless the whole thing was, simultaneously couldn't believe, and was mortally offended by, the fact that I practiced kyudo and enjoyed it. Most Japanese are mystified by foreigners who practice budo, as any foreigner who has lived in Japan will tell you; but this woman absolutely and indignantly refused to believe that I had attained a certain rank in kyudo (which meant I was no slouch), and insisted that such a thing was impossible. She was angry that a round-eye could have outdone her, even though she insisted she thought the whole thing was a crock. It was easily one of the most insulting conversations I have ever had in my life. (OK, bitch, you think I'm lying? Why don't you go and stand in front of the target...)

In any case, koryu is not something most Japanese know anything about. Anyway, think about it for a minute: how would you feel if you met a Japanese who had come all the way from Japan and gone to a little town in the Mississipi Delta to sit at the feet of Robert Johnson (or whoever), and learned to imitate the way he played, talked, dressed, and lived, all because he thought that the blues held the secret of life, and that if he just learned to play the blues perfectly that he would somehow know what life is all about? (I mean, that's what I did when I went to Japan, my head stuffed full of Eugen Herrigel and DT Suzuki nonsense.) You'd think he was a fruitcake. And in a way, you'd be right. It is "abnormal". But, so what? We should just accept the fact that our interests are a little on the odd side. But I'm OK with that.

Anyway, I think the main attraction of the budo, koryu or otherwise, is the power its practioners believe it has to transform them in some way, and make them better people (or, at least, different people). It is a challenge against which a person measures him or herself. Through the training you are not supposed to just learn technique or something that is quaint or "cultural". You are supposed to learn about yourself, seeing yourself in the mirror of budo. I don't think Appalachian quilt making is in that league, as interesting or valuable a cultural artifact as it is (and I'm not being facetious, either).

I was originally interested in budo because it was cool and Japanese and foreign (hey, I was 17, OK, cut me some slack, all right?); that is, I saw it as a Japanese cultural artifact, somehting utterly foreign and different, and I thought that if I learned budo I would understand the Japanese "samurai spirit", which everybody knows is the coolest thing there is, right? (OK, cue the shakuhachi and koto music and the panorama of chery blossoms in full bloom). Well, I don't really care about the Japanese spirit anymore, as such, nor am I particularly interested in making a life sudy of whatever falls under the rubric of "Japanese culture", something external to be looked at and examined, although I find such things interesting and enjoyable. I want to understand the spirit of budo, if I can, and that means looking inside myself, foreigner that I am. And the teachers I had in Japan who helped me to try to do that are, outside of my family, the most important people in my life.

Norito? Holy cow, Tobs, you really ARE in deep, aren't you?

Earl,

That post was great!

I have a Japanese friend just mystified by another friend who quit his job and moved to Japan to study Aikido. I ask him why he thought this was so strange? He responded, "What would you think of me if I quit my job and moved all the way to Texas to become a cowboy?" I laughed my ass off and said "Good point! Your right, I'd think you were nuts. Boy, he put things in perspective. I still laugh about that wonderful analogy.


Tokotoha ni kami tsumarimasu.....amatsu kami, kunitsu kami.....without a Texas accent ...if possible, just for you Earl :)

Tobs

[Jack B]

Toby, I'd think he must really *love* cowboying... and admire him for the commitment to pursue his dreams.

Random comments... If it were not for G.Lucas most of us would have never heard of J.Campbell. For that matter, without "kurotty" most of us would never have heard of koryu or budo. Pop culture is the tip of an iceberg, and it publicizes and funds the great cultural assets it debases.

Perhaps this should be re-threaded, but is the idealized genetic knighthood imagined in Star Wars morally worse than traditional warrior caste systems, like samurai?

Lucas got lost after Empire and ended with a commercialized anticlimax. The "redemption of the father" is not for DV's sake, but for the son's journey, and Luke's reconciliation was pat and meaningless.

Jack Bieler

[Joseph Svinth]

Believe it or not, many Issei went to the mainland because they wanted to be cowboys. Thus Japanese Canadian National Museum and Archives Society has photos of guys in full Tom Mix getup taken ca. 1910, and Yakima Canutt learned to ride from an Issei hand. There was also an Issei who was one of Alaska's most famous sourdoughs. Helped found Fairbanks, he did. Anyway, dreams pull.

***

Meanwhile, Toby, what I want you to do is to invite Bluming to read the prayers at the next meeting. His accent probably isn't any worse than yours, and it ought to keep the snickering down.

[Gil Gillespie]

Great thread! As much from the posters as the depth and literacy of the posts. A question for Toby I've been mulling throughout: Wouldn't cultural tradition or unbroken cultural lineage be more on the mark as a nexus for koryu than cultural mythology? I mean do the various ryuha even manifest a link to Amateresu or Inazagi/ Inazami? Isn't that tradition and lineage more the defining qualities setting koryu apart from gendai than any acknowledgement of creation heroes from the mythic past?

One big thing Campbell has lent to our understanding of myth is that in addition to myths comprising the panoply of superhuman heroes in a culture, they also (perhaps more importantly) contain the repository of sacred knowledge that empowers the culture and its continuation. We often perceive myths as merely allegorical stories that explain history and natural phenomena; stories and characters which are, ultimately, fantasy or fiction. At the root of a culture's soul myth is so much more. Does that address your correlation of cultural myths and koryu at all?

In reading the post wherein "traditional Western arts" were mentioned, in my wiseass nature I thought "Yeah, calf roping and bronc busting." As the thread evolved this became a lot less sarcastic when cowboys were mentioned later on! The cowboy has often been viewed as the ultimate American mythical figure. The grueling competition of the rodeo suggests a parallel to koryu: both the cowboy and the budoka hone skills anachronistic in modern life. The day to day skills that created the rodeo were life and death to the historical cowboy as they were to the combat bushi.* They're more symbolic now than practical. (I understand cowboy skills persist. My uncle in California still gets up every day at 5 am to ride his fences.)

Someone also mentioned the future of koryu as outside Japan and couched it in the vein of hyperbolic humor. Minoru Mochizuki Sensei, founder of Yoseikan budo, however, was dead serious. Sensei, perhaps the last of the giants, told me in 1990 that he sees the future of Japanese budo among the Americans and Europeans, who have the passion and the spirit for them. It saddens him that the Japanese of the new millennium do not. (Yoseikan may be narrowly defined as gendai, but Mochizuki Sensei's aversion to sport budo is deep, and among his 60 dan ranks many are koryu.) In terms of our present discourse on cultural mythology, remember that in order to flourish Buddhism had to leave the India of its birth and Christianity had to transcend the Holy Land.
______________________________________________________
*A picturesque exploration of these two cultural icons can be found in Stephen Cohen's "Cowboys and Samurai" (1991), but be forewarned: it's written a lot more for grad level economics students than martial artists! It's worth wading through it.

Hi Gil,

You posted:

" Wouldn't cultural tradition or unbroken cultural lineage be more on the mark as a nexus for koryu than cultural mythology? I mean do the various ryuha even manifest a link to Amateresu or Inazagi/ Inazami? Isn't that tradition and lineage more the defining qualities setting koryu apart from gendai than any acknowledgement of creation heroes from the mythic past?

Well, I think it's both. With the Japanese psyche these two things almost go hand in hand. Many of the oldest koyru definitely trace their origins back to mythic characters. Often they couch these characters into historical roles which attempt to make them "real" but ultimately they are also mythic. Look at Miyamoto Musashi for a second. He has become mythic in reputation while we assume he was a real individual. Few documentable facts are really known about him but he is larger than life in the Japanese psyche. In the case of Niten Ichi ryu, cultural lineage and cultural mythology have merged to elevate Musashi to almost divine status.

Other koryu unabashedly link their origins to secrets gleaned from mountain goblins or other mythological characters. One of my teacher's studied Shinkage ryu and frequently mentioned shotengu and musojinken. We have in our curriculum a whole subset of gokui called myojinken that were supposeable transmitted divinely. They are "aiki- like" techniques and concepts involving mental disruption. Since these concepts were past by divine methods (as the myth goes) I am required (by cultural lineage) to recite a Japanese prayer at the beginning of every class and then yearly recite various norito during a ceremony to maintain the divine link to our ryu's past.

Remember that prior to WW2 the majority of Japanese society accepted the emperior as divine and related by birth to Amateresu. A society so strongly shaped by it's cultural mythology casts these myths off very cautiously if ever. Even more so it is with koryu I believe.

Dojo's traditionally contain a kamidana but usually not a butsudan even though the goddess Marishiten is really Buddhist.

Why?

Loved the comparion of rodeo with koryu. That was my point exactly when I earlier brought up the analogy offered by my Japanese friend. Here I am living in Texas surrounded by the culture of the west and I find Japanese martial arts so fascinating. If a Japanese was similarly incline by the cowboy myth I would be just as perplexed as he over my inclination towards samurai tradition. Myths do funny things to us all.

Thanks for the post Gil.

Toby

[Joseph Svinth]

Toby --

In my romaji dictionary, the first definition of tengu is "long-nosed goblin," but the second definition is "self-conceited person." Hmm.

Some other reasons why martial arts are like rodeo.

* Cool duds.
* You have to watch where you step.
* Clowns get a lot of respect.

[Jeff Hamacher]

living in japan and studying martial arts, as well as tea ceremony and the japanese language, means i've become a magnet for all sorts of overdone compliments. it's not surprising, when you consider that this behaviour is typical of japanese social activity; it even has a name, "seji" (sometimes with the honourific "o-seji"), or if you want to express the pejorative, "bootlicker" nuance, try "gomasuri", literally "sesame seed grinding".

when japanese people play this card, the normal response is to deny the compliment, so if someone lays on the "you are more japanese than japanese people" line, i often redirect the discussion into my pet theory on why japanese themselves seem to show so little regard for their own society's traditions. japanese people are surrounded by various cultural institutions, and it is precisely because of this "everydayness", i believe, that most japanese aren't inclined to think about them. in some sense, japanese have come to take their presence for granted and thus they don't feel the urgent need to make an effort to preserve them. or, as mentioned upthread, they are completely unaware of what traditions exist; when i tell people that i recently started "jodo" they usually assume i've mispronounced "judo", and i have to explain it to them.

second, modern japanese life often doesn't allow people to consistently attend classes in whatever tradition they'd like to learn about. to be certain, many of the people in my aikido, jo, or tea classes show up regularly and train to the best of their ability, but many times work or family obligations preclude "hobbies". it is with a certain regret that i understand working life in north america is following the same trend. "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy", does it not?

and Earl beat me to the punch, but the nail in the coffin for most japanese peoples' interest in traditional culture is negative psychological association. a school club coach may be a skilled, supportive teacher of judo or kendo, but when it comes down to it, the school, the principal and the parents all want to see tournament victory trophies and certificates in the main hall. there is relatively little time to spend on the abstract or philosophical aspects of budo and the drill sargeant approach just leaves a bad taste in the students' mouths. i won't repeat Earl's comments but read 'em 'cuz they're spot on. many of my students are outwardly impressed by my martial arts and tea study, but i wonder if they would be were i japanese.

in a nutshell, non-japanese are attracted to japanese martial arts partly because they are "exotic", in much the same way that younger japanese are so fascinated with non-japanese things. learning about that exotic tradition is valuable since it can serve to give one a different perspective of one's own cultural assumptions, even if one studies something from one's birth culture. i agree that these traditions will not die out as long as we all do our best to learn and teach them to others, but i believe that support will have to come from both domestic and international sources, and i think that means that somewhere along the line the mythology will become altered.

later, jeff hamacher

[Earl Hartman]

Regarding the ignorance of most modern Japanese of the more traditional types of budo, I have a funny story that most of you will probably appreciate:

On my business trips to Japan I lug my jo and bokken with me. Getting off the Narita Express and going through the fist customs check on my way back home, the fellow behind the customs counter asked me what I had in the bag. Since he was wearing a uniform, I assumed he was a cop, and since all cops in Japan are familiar with jo, I told him I had a jo in the bag. The following conversation ensued:

"What's a jo?"
"Well, it's a stick (I used the word "tsue").
"What's it for?"
"It's for jojutsu training."
"What's jojutsu?
"Well, it's a kind of traditional budo."
"You mean it's a WEAPON?" The first signs of panic start to appear.
"Well, it's just for training..."
"Oh, I see". The panic seems to pass. "What sort of training?"
"Well, budo training."
"Then it IS a weapon!" Panic reasserts itself. Eyes start darting around. "What else do you have in the bag?" Real concern now.
"A bokken. A wooden sword."
"You mean a WEAPON?" His eyes dart over to the cop who is standing against a pillar a few feet away. The cop holds, of course, a jo, as they all do. He sees what is going on and starts to smile.

"Well", I say, "I guess you could call it a kind of weapon, but it's really just a stick. It's not a real sword."
Silence and confusion. "Well, I don't know...maybe it's a weapon...." He is immobilized with doubt, uncertain of what he should do.

I don't understand what's going on. The guy's wearing a unifom, so that means he's a cop, right? Is there any cop in Japan who doesn't know what a jo and a bokken are? I begin to wonder whether I have fallen down the rabbit hole.

I don't know what to say so I just shrug, and glance over at the cop. He is smiling broadly now, and saunters over. He grins at me and gently explains to the poor fellow, who seems on the verge of doing himself an apoplexy, that I am carrying harmless wooden training weapons just like the jo he is carrying.

Comprehension finally sets in. The light dawns. In a welter of confusion the guy draws himself up, stands at attention with his hands at his sides, bows formally to me and apologizes profusely, mumbling that he's just a security guy, and that although he is wearing a uniform he's not a real cop, so he didn't know what I was talking about. He exhibits the shamefaced embarrassment of all Japanese who meet a round-eye who knows some weird, out-of-the-way facet of Japanese culture of which they themselves are ignorant. I have a fleeting vision of him throwing himself off the roof in shame as soon as I am out of sight.

With everything all straightened out I zip up my bag, shoulder it, bow politely to the poor fellow and turn to leave. As I do, I make momentary eye contact with the cop who has returned to his post. We eye each other in that cool manner of mutual insiders. Without saying a word, we understand what we're saying to each other with that glance: "You do SMR Jo too, huh? Cool. Some guys just don't know what's going on, do they?" In an instant we have forged the budo bond.

We bow to each other slightly. I head up the stairs to catch my flight.

[Cady Goldfield]

Perhaps many non-Japanese are attracted to Japanese arts and disciplines because they are exotic... But, some of us train in the Japanese martial arts we've chosen, simply because they kick a$$ (outstandingly effective, profound and a source of a lifetime of challenge and learning) and there's nothing like them anywhere else we've searched. I suspect that the number of modernday Japanese practicing these koryu arts for that reason is about the same as the number of non-Japanese doing so, who were lucky enough to get into the legit dojo.

[Brently Keen]

Fascinating thread, but I have to agree most with Cady's last post. The cultural mystique, mythology, and exotic nature of things Japanese, all certainly have some degree of attraction (heck even kanji has it's own sort of magnetism), but that's not what really does it for me.

I really began my martial arts training seeking to learn a system that would allow me to win with minimal effort against bigger, stronger opponents.
That quest alone eventually brought me to be very influenced by Don Angier, whose techniques simply astounded me. And he later introduced me to Seigo Okamoto sensei and I subsequently moved to Japan to study Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai directly with him. Okamoto sensei's techniques were simply the most phenomenal and effective techniques I'd ever experienced.

In fact, for me - although I'd always been fascinated (since I was a kid) by history and heroes from the Bible, American pioneers and indians, tales of the samurai, as well as modern day war heroes, it was always the true life, historical and biographical accounts that held my interest most. I've always tended to dismiss the more "legendary" and "mythical" accounts as less interesting, than real stories about real people and their abilities.

What captivates me about the koryu that I study is not the mythology, but the amazing effectiveness of the art. In fact, I've discovered through personal experience that many things I once dismissed as fanciful, exaggerated, and unbelievable developments of generations of cultural mythology actually may hold more truth than most will admit.

There may not be sufficient documentary or other historical proofs to support the veracity of oral traditions and such, but there are individuals living today who by their extraordinary abilities, bring to life some of the more unbelievable elements of those legends that otherwise I'd dismiss as fantasy. Because I (and many others) have personally felt the effects of such unbelievable skills, I've been persuaded to invest much of my life into the pursuit and attainment of such skills for myself, and to do my part to ensure that those skills in turn be transmitted to the next generation precisely because they are so wonderful.

For me it's not a cultural mythology so much as it is a heritage that is worthy of preserving. The heritage of the koryu are steeped in Japanese culture for sure, but the heritage itself, the contents of those traditions, have also shaped that culture significantly, and now they've begun to cross cultural boundaries as well. Whether or not those traditions will ever play a role in shaping our own culture(s) they have shaped the worldviews and perspectives of those of us who've chosen to train in these traditions.

For myself, in the process of training, discovering and developing new skills and abilities, my own teacher has generously shared with me the accumulated experiences of the heritage he has received. What I've learned from him, and am still learning is not just a cultural relic of the past, but a living treasure that because of it's practical effectiveness (or as Cady put it because, "it simply kicks a$$...") it has enriched my life.

I would argue that belief in a myth does not substantially enrich one's life, it may serve to occupy the imagination, or produce feelings of well being or whatever, but ultimately because it's a myth, there is no real substance to the belief. The real benefit of mythology to society is limited to the principles or truths embedded in them - not in the truths that are obscured or distorted because of them.

In terms of martial arts study, I could careless about exaggerations and fabrications, I'm more interested in real skills and abilities. I don't want to enter a combative situation with a mind full of assumptions based on myth, rather I want to be grounded with a realistic mindset. The last thing I want is to have a rude awakening because of some false belief.

After all this rambling, I guess I could've just said that I'm with Cady in that I've chosen the Japanese art that I study primarily because its effectiveness and profound depth blows away the other stuff I've seen or experienced.

Brently Keen

[P Goldsbury]

Mr Threadgill,

I have just come across the very interesting thread you started. I practise aikido, which is not really a koryu (though it is based on much cultural mythology!), but perhaps my experience of living in Japan allows me to make some comments. My comments follow each of your paragraphs.

Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
Guys,

The Tim McVeigh debate has been interesting and got me thinking. Our nation has wrestled with tragedy, heros, grief and now justice. These are the building blocks of mythology and mythological themes. As contemporary Americans I wonder if some of our societal problems are exacerbated by the fact that we no longer embrace our cultural mythologies as we did in the past. Sadly our childrens mythological heros / themes may include millionaire basketball players dressing like women and spewing virulent language. Maintaining old cultural/mythological themes is especially difficult in the melting pot of an eclectic America. Bill Moyers in his interviews with mythologist Joseph Campbell addressed this phenomon much better than I could. Classical mythology still speaks to many Americans but unfortunately it is becoming more a whisper to those people without the support or influence of decent role models. Tim McVeigh is a good case of a man who made up his own mythology because no significant mythology spoke to him or helped him understand humanity. Too bad for him, but worse, too bad for us.

PG. The Tim McVeigh episode did not cause much debate here, but Japan is now in the grip of a major media trauma owing to the recent murder of half a dozen school children in their classrooms. A man entered the school armed with a knife and began hacking away at random. In this society, supposedly uncomtaminated with the baggage of Original Sin, everyone is basically 'good' and so the problem is to uncover the 'deeper' impulses which drove the man to do the deed.

Had the culprit ceased to embrace the cultural mythologies of Japan? Like the youth who hijacked a bus a couple of years ago, murdered a passenger and held a girl hostage, he was a 'loner', who had been rejected by his own culture. It is hard to be specific and I am not an American, but in my opinion Japanese culture (understood as a particular way of doing things based on a mythology), makes more explicit demands to conform than the English culture in which I was brought up. As with McVeigh, some people in Japan also make up their own 'old cultural' mythologies and imagine that theirs are more genuine than the originals. I am thinking of Shoko Asahara and Aum Shinri-kyo. You must have heard about the Sarin gas murders on the Tokyo subway system. The case is now winding through the Japanese courts and, as with McVeigh, it is highly likely that Asahara will suffer the death penalty, assuming he is still alive when the trials have come to their conclusion. The point is that many very intelligent young Japanese joined Aum Shinrikyo and appear to believed all the mumbo-jumbo: they clearly embraced the cultural myths that Asahara had tuned into. When I asked my university classes (Japanese medical students of around the same age in a 'good' university) why people like then had joined Aum, they were very uncomfortable. I asked them in Japanese, and their answers suggested that they had ceased to embrace the cultural myths of Japan as these are reflected in the educational system (and these myths include Japanese budo).

The sarin gas murders touched a raw nerve here. A few miles away from Hiroshima is the island of Okunojima. For many years the island was not even on the maps of Japan. It was here that the Japanese military manufactured the poison gas used in China and Manchuria in WWII. There is an ambivalence about Japanese attitudes to the atrocities committed in WWII. In Hiroshima fingers are pointed at the US for dropping the atomic bomb (and a visit to the A-Bomb museum here is a salutary experience), but the Japanese government has not yet admitted that Unit 731 (which used the poison gas and committed horrific experiments on Chinese and allied prisoners of war) ever existed. In some respects my students are right.

----------

Cultural mythology is a subtle thing but as people interested in Japanese budo the cultural mythology of Japan obviously speaks to us. It has seeped into me in very subtle ways. Maybe it is the cultural mythology of Japan that makes Japanese martial disciplines "Japanese". Is it mythological themes and influences that make us study so antiquated a pursuit as swordsmanship or naginata. Do these Japanese mythologies affect some of our perceptions of moral obligation and responsability? I would really be interested in the opinions of those who trained in Japan for extended periods of time. Much has been discussed here on the comparison of koryu and gendai budo traditions. At times it seemed that an important aspect of the discussion was being missed. Much head scratching was done on both sides of the discussion as if we couldn't put into words exactly why some of us are so dedicated to the arts we study. Could it be so subtle a thing as cultural mythology? Does Japanese cultural mythology speak to us in different ways and effect our appreciation and pursuit of different martial disciplines. I tend to believe cultural mythology had a great deal to do with my choice to pursue traditional jujutsu as diligently as I have. To someone like Ellis, Meik, or Dave perhaps the allure of Japanese mythological themes was much more great and what subtly drove them to dedicate so much time to the study of koryu in Japan.

PG. I take the mythology with a large dose of salt. I myself approached Japanese budo because I had never experienced anything like it before. I had some very good teachers and they presented the art as part and parcel of a certain kind of contenporary Japanese culture. It was the attempt to learn about this culture that attracted me to come and live here and learn the language. Since then I have learned that every 'omote' has at least one 'ura' and that a cultural mythology has mythmakers: it does not just appear by itself. It is true that some koryu traditions go back a very long way, but it is also true that some of what we take as 'cultural mythology' was something promoted in the Tokugawa and Meiji periods. Masao Maruyama has written about this, as have Carol Gluck and Herbert Ooms, to name only western writers.

Toby Threadgill

I can see that I need to expand on what I have written in the last paragraph and will do so at the earliest opportunity.

Best regards to all,

P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

Peter,

Thank you for the post. It's funny, I almost sent you an e-mail asking for your input on this topic. I have enjoyed your interesting perspectives published in Aikido Journal. I look forward to your futher contributions.


Toby Threadgill

[P Goldsbury]

Toby,

Thanks for the post. Here are a few more thoughts on the matters raised in the second paragraph of your original post. I've read through the whole thread and some of what follows makes the same points as other contributors have done and, I hope, adds some more.

Originally posted by Toby Threadgill


Cultural mythology is a subtle thing but as people interested in Japanese budo the cultural mythology of Japan obviously speaks to us. It has seeped into me in very subtle ways. Maybe it is the cultural mythology of Japan that makes Japanese martial disciplines "Japanese". Is it mythological themes and influences that make us study so antiquated a pursuit as swordsmanship or naginata. Do these Japanese mythologies affect some of our perceptions of moral obligation and responsability? I would really be interested in the opinions of those who trained in Japan for extended periods of time. Much has been discussed here on the comparison of koryu and gendai budo
traditions. At times it seemed that an important aspect of the discussion was being missed. Much head scratching was done on both sides of the discussion as if we couldn't put into words exactly why some of us are so dedicated to the arts we study. Could it be so subtle a thing as cultural mythology? Does Japanese cultural mythology speak to us in different ways and effect our appreciation and pursuit of different martial disciplines. I tend to believe cultural mythology had a great deal to do with my choice to pursue traditional jujutsu as diligently as I have. To someone like Ellis, Meik, or Dave perhaps the allure of Japanese mythological themes was much more great and what subtly drove them to dedicate so much time to the study of koryu in Japan.

Toby Threadgill

As I suggested earlier, I started aikido because it was different from anything I had experienced before and, more importantly, because I met some Japanese practitioners of the art who knew the Founder. However, I practised the art for 10 years before coming here, but always with Japanese teachers who knew the Founder. (Incidentally, some contributors have suggested that there is no 'American Culture' and that America is destructive of cultural myths. As an outsider, I have to disagree on both points.)

I think that there are various components the 'mythologyy of a culture', which can be distinguished but are not usually separated. First there is a tradition, a shared way of doing things handed down from the past, which yields (and goes hand in hand with) a set of spiritual and ethical values. Secondly, this tradition is the warrant for a particular type of social practice and by participating in the practice the practitioner is believed to acquire the spiritual and ethical values. However, thirdly, since this tradition is social, it is usually controlled, perhaps even manipulated, by those in positions of power. You can see these three factors operating in a macro-culture like Japan's and also in a micro-culture like a koryu, which is a microcosm of the larger culture, i.e., there is no mismatch between the two.

If we apply this to a Japanese art, like the tea ceremony, we can see all three factors clearly. There is the tradition, handed down from 'time immemorial'; there is the practice, the particular group of skills associated with the art, and repeated practice is meant to lead to a certain spiritual and ethical awareness. Finally, the practice is guided by 'powerholders', who usually (but not necessarily) excel in the technical proficiency and/or spiritual & ethical awareness which practice in the art yields.

As I have suggested, this 'cultural mythology' in a koryu or martial art is in complete synchronicity with the culture as a whole. It might be considered 'counter-cultural' in the sense that the practice and values it upholds are gradually being lost in the culture as a whole, but it rests on the same traditions and values as the general culture.

In Japan this general culture is considered to have several 'uniquely unique' features and the reasons for this are complex. It is thought to be directly 'God-given', going back to Amaterasu, if not further; it is vertically, not democratically, structured; its values are not based on a monotheistic religion or on moral principles thought to have universal application; the cultural medium is a language thought to be largely beyond the grasp of outsiders, as are the values.

When a non-Japanese approaches a Japanese koryu, he/she is learning a micrcosm of Japanese culture, with all the factors outlined above. Experts will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that if the non-Japanese student is accepted, one of the conditions is that there is no compromise about any of the 'cultural mythology'. In "Legacies of the Sword", Karl Friday has given a brilliant analysis of one such koryu. With aikido, there are a number of other factors, some of which might also have some relevance to koryu. Taking my cue from Joseph Campbell and C G Jung, I suggest that the myth of the Hero and the myth of the Journey are two such factors and they have much relevance to aikido.

Consider the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba. His life was colourful to say the least, but it can be seen as a concrete manifestation of the two myths. He certainly embarked on a spiritual journey and has achieved a heroic stature. But it is curious that really very little is known about him. He wrote hardly anything and virtually all of his disciples confess that they understood little of what he said. He believed he was a reincarnation of some of the deities mentioned in the Kojiki and had a mission to show the world his new art. He believed he had a unique understanding of these myths and that both the myths and the art could best be understood as something called 'kotodama' (the spirit manifest in and through sounds/words). His deshi also entered on a similar spiritual journey, but this time in the dojo. It was not exactly the same journey, but I am certain that all his deshi without exception believe that they have achieved an analogous spiritual awareness as a result. These are now the powerholders and in a very real sense the 'mythmakers' of the art.

Thus, in aikido you have all the various factors of 'cultural mythology' outlined above. There is the tradition, which somehow can trace its origins back to 'time immemorial'; there is the practice, with the possibility of spiritual awareness; there is the structure, with powerholders: the keepers of the truths and myths about the art, who can control its development.

With aikido, however, there are other factors which are less prominent in koryu arts. Aikido is still in the 'Homeric' age, with a large number of practitioners alive who knew the Founder personally; secondly, aikido has firmly developed overseas and this is due to the circumstances of its creation. But this leads to a fundamental question: which 'cultural mythology' does aikido embody? It is clearly Japanese, but perhaps I am biased because of the time I have lived here.

Of course, there is a lot more that could be said...

Best regards,

Peter G.

_______________
P A Goldsbury
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[P Goldsbury]

In my last post, I briefly touched upon something that need to be borne in mind in any discussion about 'cultural mythology' and this needs to be looked at in a little more detail. In this discussion two important matters must be kept in mind.
(1) Sometimes, myths are thought of in opposition to truth (i.e., scientific knowledge, which has been tested and shown to be reliable), but this is a completely false dichotomy here.
(2) Myths do not just appear, as if by accident. They entail myth makers, but these myth makers should not be thought as cold and cynical manipulators, preying on the gullibility of the believers (though they may be). Nor, by definition, do we ever encounter myths in their 'raw' state. We always approach them from the viewpoint of the present and use them for own own purposes.

Let us assume that a Japanese koryu or budo can, like sumo and Shinto, trace its roots right back to the Kojiki, for example. It would be a grave mistake to imagine an unbroken line of practitioners of the budo going all the way back beyond the dawn of recorded history. Consider the following:

1. For a start, the Kojiki was put together around 700 AD, a few centuries after the Japanese learned to write, in order to justify the claims of the Yamato clan to rule over Japan. Thus, much of the early part of the texts concern the transgressions of Susanoo-no-mikoto (a deity of the Izumo clan) against Amaterasu (the Sun goddess and deity of the Yamato clan). In early encounters Susanoo always misbehaves himself, but eventually he learns to behave and becomes a 'good' Yamato-style deity.
2. Secondly, the Kojiki was written in the kanbun style of Chinese and it was not until the Edo period that the text was transcribed (translated would be a better term) into 'modern' Japanese. Until this point nobody could read it.
3. Thirdly, those Edo scholars who did translate the Kojiki had an agenda. They wanted to find the 'real' roots of Japan, roots that were 'really' Japanese and not Chinese. Almost from the beginning of the Edo era, there was a tension between scholars like Hayashi Razan, who promulgated the Chu Hsi school of Neo Confucianism (an intellectual and moral system which suited the Tokugawa shogunate very well), and later scholars like Hirata Atsutane and Motoori Norinaga who wanted to go beyond the Chinese imports of Buddhism and (Neo) Confucianism to something that they could claim was 'uniquely' Japanese. (Motoori's rediscovery of 'mono-no-aware' is another example of the resurrection of an 'ancient' concept as something essentially Japanese.) This point is of some importance in respect of the various beliefs known as Shinto. Even scholars like Joseph Kitagawa have assumed that Shinto is very old, but the concept of Shinto itself is a relatively modern concept and is also a way of looking at the past in terms of the present.
4. So Motoori and his colleagues not only transcribed the Kojiki into readable Japanese and supplied a 'helpful' commentary, but they also devised a 'purer' theory of language to express the 'kotodama' spirit of the myths more clearly. Their efforts formed the foundations of a movement called kokugaku (national learning, or nativism), which, along with the effects of 200 years of Edo-era seclusion, in turn made a strong foundation for the set of pseudo-academic theories about Japan known as 'nihonjinron' (theories of the Japanese). What I am saying here is that the Confucianism of Chu Hsi and Wang Yang-ming went hand in hand with kokugaku and a refined form of state Shinto. This heady combination became a very powerful instrument in the hands of the Tokugawa and Meiji elites and was used to create an equally powerful 'cultural mythology'.
5. Along with seclusion from the 'outside' world, the Edo period was the time when koryu and bujutsu ceased to be purely fighting arts and became more 'spiritual'. This is not to say that they were not 'spiritual' earlier, but practical importance of the martial skills in the civil wars ensured that this side did not receive much prominence or separate intellectual treatment. This came later, after the strictly martial skills ceased to be necessary and also because the samurai, like any other redundant army, needed to be given useful things to do. The samurai thus became a crucial part of this 'cultural mythology' and a romantic throwback to an earlier 'golden age'.

Now very few Japanese know much about the points made in the above paragraphs and are usually stunned when they are told this, and by a foreigner, no less (who is not supposed to know this sort of thing). They know that samurai and martial arts are enduring parts of the culture and in fact are part of what it means to be Japanese. I am sure that the mandarins in the Japanese Education ministry with whom I come into contact really do feel themselves as true inheritors of samurai values. They really believe in the importance of 'filial piety', seen as respect for one's elders and betters, and my students often tell me that Japanese society would collapse if the sempai/kohai system (the bedrock of education in koryu arts) disappeared. Despite the rise of postwar democracy, Japan is still at roots a shame culture, with an instrumentalist approach to knowledge and morality.

Does all this matter? Probably not, strictly. However, when a foreigner encounters a koryu in Japan, he/ she makes a commitment to a particular 'cultural mythology'. But he/she does not thereby cease to be a foreigner and it as well to be aware that the encounter is extremely unusual when understood from the standpoint of Japanese 'cultural mythology'. Given the 'cultural mythology' of koryu and budo, I think it is next to impossible for someone to practise these arts quite like a Japanese, for a major re-learning process has to take place.

I am sometimes told that it is impossible for a foreigner to understand 'ki' because it is a uniquely Japanese concept. (It is not, of course. Though the Japanese obviously had the concept in their language, the character itself and the way it is read are both Chinese.) Of course this is a prejudice (I prefer to call it a cultural stereotype), but is also evidence of the way 'cultural mythology' works and also evidence of the way in which myth makers have molded the 'cultural mythology' to suit their own purposes.

As I suggested earlier, Morihei Ueshiba was a Meiji/Taisho figure and created the art of aikido shortly before Japan was defeated in a major conflict, which called into question much of the cultural mythology. As Japan gradually rebuilt itself, many of these cultural myths were resurrected and aikido nowadays is an Establishment budo. It flourishes here and overseas and so I am not certain that Minoru Mochizuki is right when he says that the future of budo/bujutsu/koryu lies overseas. I think he is harking back to an earlier age, but it would be a mistake to think that this earlier age was any more Golden than the present.

But these are just my opinions...

Best wishes to all,

Peter Goldsbury
______________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[glad2bhere]

Dear Toby et al:

Having taken the time and tea to print off this string and read through it post by post I was a bit disturbed by what I think may be a misdirection of the conversation. I do, sincerely appreciate the references to Jung and Campbell but I wonder if, perhaps, contributors are confusing the method for the message as we examine the subject. By this I mean that I have not seen any failing of American mythology or archetypes even in todays' modern society. Quite the opposite, I witness a multiplicity of interpretations of the original and historic material passed down for generations (witness the various comments regarding multi-media representations such as Kurasawa and Lucas). That said, perhaps we should, instead, be considering the failings of the trsnsmission of these archetypes and their inculcation into subsquent generations (with the fond hope that they would be promoted and passed on). In the parlance of the discussion, perhaps we should be considering Sam Keen and Marvin Allen rather than Joseph Campbell.

If I can be allowed an opinion on the role of Japanese culture as it may relate to Anglo truth-seekers, perhaps the attraction of Koryu is less the nature of the archetypes it supports as much as the methods it provides in helping individuals to actualize those archetypes. In support of this I suggest that the true failing of modern commercial society is that it no longer provides rites of passage to individuals by which they are provided venues for learning how to pursue and attain various archetypes in their lives. I will also tell you in all fairness that, of course, Japanese culture does not have the market cornered in this regard. There are still large numbers of Afro-Americans who visit or return to the African continent seeking such culture and ritual that is not availalbe in the sanitized, PC American culture. Likewise, Jewish, Eastern European, and at least one woman of my intimate acquaintance have returned to lands of their family origins looking for the Grail by which they can actualize traditional archetypes in a modern world. I believe that traditional MA do this for us in a way most people will never understand including (as has been mentioned) members of those self-same cultures.

My most sincere apologies for addressing a culture which I admittedly know very little. As my traditions are Korean rather than Japanese I cannot pretend any great insight into the specifics of their practice. Rather, I am drawing on my experience as a therapist and the damage that I have idetified as a result of broken families, media, and commerce. I am now wondering if others share this particular view?

Best Wishes--- and a great thread--,

Bruce

[P Goldsbury]

In the original thread Toby raised the question of whether, and why, cultural mythology seemingly fails to 'resonate' with certain Americans (McVeigh?) and whether and why Japanese koryu seemingly does so, both in the US and Japan. It was suggested, I think by Ellis Amdur, that Japanese koryu has a very powerful appeal and cited the thought of C G Jung. Now Bruce has suggested that the problem in the USA is not so much the cultural mythology itself as the way it has been transmitted. As someone who is in the (probably rare) situation of being a foreigner teaching comparative culture to professional Japanese, I would like to respond to the questions posed at the end of Bruce's pst.

First of all I think the method and the message are two sides of the same coin. By this I mean that someone who is born and brought up in a particular culture will at the same time be exposed to 'cultural mythology' in multifarious ways and also undergo 'rites of passage'. I am not really qualified to make such comparisons with American culture, but I think that for the average Japanese the demands of the cultural mythology, in both aspects, are clear and particularly uncompromising if the Japanese family is any way 'traditional'.

Thus, the vast majority of my Japanese undergraduate students are 'middle class' whose parents have struggled hard to send them to a 'good' university. They have also had to struggle through Japan's educational system to gett here, but they will have fairly secure expectations of a reasonable job after graduation. After obtaining the 'reasonable' job, there will be intense pressure to marry by the age of 30 and produce at least two children (preferably one of each sex) and then repeat the entire cycle. For the husband retirement occurs at 65, after which there are the pleasures of gate ball in the local park. Wives do not retire, but after educating their children, form increasingly fruitful relationships with daughters-in-law, spoil their grandchildren and, also, play gateball in the local park. All this is involved in what it is to be a 'good' Japanese.

In some respects, being a 'good' japanese is like going through the long bullet train tunnels that are frequent in this part of Japan. Until junior high school Japanese children are allowed to run wild (and usually do). Then a lengthy and involved process of socialisation takes place, which does not stop until the children have appeared and are safely at school. (I know the tunnel analogy is right because there are always vigorous nods of recognition and agreement from the Japanese audience when I give outside lectures on this subject.) University is a brief period of 'freedom' in the open air, when students can do whay they want. Graduation is assured and the actual degree does not matter. Companies want graduates, preferably from one of the top 30 universities, but they will be moulded in the company's image anyway (another long tunnel, stretching until retirement).

The down side of all this is that Japanese culture is merciless with those who for various reasons do not conform to the pattern. There is just no place for dropouts, who tend to create alternative 'cultural mythologies', such as riding noisy motobikes through the streets in the middle of the night. The interesting thing is that the nonconformists are increasing in number and there is a discomforting sense that the 'cultural mythology' (which in any case was largely manufactured in the Tokugawa and Meiji periods: see previous posts) is failing and that no new ideas are forthcoming from the politicians.

The interesting question is: what role does koryu and budo play in this 'cultural mytholgy'? And the answer is: very little. Of course there is the 'cultural mythology' of the samurai and virtually the entire nation gathers each year before the TV to watch the latest version of the 47 Ronin story. The Japanese love to explain their 'traditional' culture to foreigners (it is a minor industry here in Hiroshima) and the 'samurai' figure very prominently. And the noisy bike riders also, like their yakuza sempai, think they are like samurai. But koryu and budo is in fact part and parcel of the failing 'cultural mythology'. It is there, but does not have any special role. Most Japanese boys will have been exposed to judo or kendo at school, but the heroes of my students are people like Ichiro Suzuki and Hidetoshi Nakata, Japanese sportsmen who have gone abroad and made good. If there is any rite of passage for my students, it is to learn to speak good English and travel abroad before starting a job. The number of students who practise a koryu or budo seriously is minuscule.

If I compare the makeup of my local aikido dojo here in Hiroshima with that of the Boston dojo where I trained in the 1970s, there is little difference and this suggests that budo training has a similar appeal, regardless of culture. Here, as in the US, people practise aikido for all kinds of reasons and benefit from doing so.

However, Toby mentioned the special appeal of Japanese koryu and budo and this struck a powerful response with other contributors. I am certain that one of the reasons for this is that it presents a different 'cultural mythology' and and a different learning experience. (In this respect the fact that it is Japanese does not really matter.) There really is something exotic about doing a Japanese koryu in the US, or a foreigner practising a Japanese koryu here: a cultural 'mismatch' which has some dangers but also has great possibilities for enrichment, on both sides.

Yours sincerely,

Peter Goldsbury
____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[allan]

Bugeisha,

This is all very interesting. Much the same thoughts have been going through my mind since I arrived here, in the Kanto, just one month ago to pursue training dreams. Although I was warned, I am shocked to discover that, at least around the Tokyo region, very few people practice or even seem interested in their traditonal arts. This is especially so for young people. I had heard something similar said about Buddhism: that its future may be in the `West` and not in the `East`. If the future of koryu is in the West, as has been suggested here, then that makes me so damn sad.

My own relationship with budo, bujutsu, and traditional Japanese culture more broadly has had mythological-like proportions since my early days. Here I found a philosophy, a set of ethics, and not to mention a set of heroes alongside whom I`ve attempted to pattern myself. I have only disdain for most of modern North American culture (consumerism, yes) with the exception of such resilient peoples as the indigenous Americans, the Maroons, and such rarities as John Brown.

I have to admit, now that I am here, that my fantasy of Japan which I had back in Canada is very much different than the reality which I have encountered here in the Kanto. I am told that the rest of Japan is different and I am relieved to hear this. Coming here has underscored all the good parts about home which I had been blind to.

So, my own bujutsu mythology still somewhat intact, I now will continue with my training, whether here or in North America, with a healthy dose of reality.

All the Best,
Allan Heinemann

[glad2bhere]

Dear Peter:

"..., but I think that for the average Japanese the demands of the cultural mythology, in both aspects, are clear and particularly uncompromising if the Japanese family is any way 'traditional'. ..."

Thanks for your thoughts. I am a bit concerned that an important distinction is made regarding my earlier post which is why I cited your line up above. The distinction I have in mind once again concerns method rather than content and I want to make sure this is coming across clearly.

A common theme among a few authors on the subject including Breen, Moore/Gilette, and even Campbell is that the venues for demonstrating the application of mythology ("rites of passage") with its representation of archetypes are being eclipsed by the growing shadow of commerce and technology. What seems to be substituted for these venues is a pre-occupation with ones' status and execution of social roles. In this way people in America learn how to manage babies and children but not how to be parents, or learn how to be couples but not how to form a marriage. People learn how to identify a job but not how to develop a career, or (more commonly) people identify a career but are unable to develop a livelihood. When asked to identify that quality that is missing I use the term "soul".

I believe that a genuine rite of passage will be able to demonstrate to an individual how an archetype such as "king," "warrior," "lover," "magi," "mystic" etc., is actually applied to draw a person out of the best part of themselves and produce a cohesive blend of their skills and attributes within the context of their particular social and cultural reality. I believe that folks like Allan (who shared his romantic venture to Japan) find in the MA a psycho-drama for experimenting with various values, rules, personalities and skills that they have been cheated out of in the sterility of their commercial culture back home. A good MA teacher will be sensitive to this endeavor and know how to help it along. A poor teacher will be of little help or may actually get in the way or even send you off in a nasty direction. But the original purpose of the student/practitioner continues even after they return home, because what they were looking for was a life-changing event, not just some information or fighting skill.

If I can use myself as an example for just a minute--- I train to follow a warriors' path-- call it a "warrior achetype." You won't find me walking down the street with weaponry on my belt, a 14th century costume and arrogant/belligerent demeanor. MA has taught me a series of values and skills for addressing situations both personal and social in my life--- the least of which are the combat material. MA has taught me not just to be true to myself, but HOW to do that as well; not just to be honorable, but HOW to do that as well; not just to contribute to my community and nation but how to identify the the best way to do that AND find the resources within myself to make it happen. In American culture such character development is most often left to religions and therapists. In my own vocabulary I would say that MA has helped me to find and develop "soul" in my efforts.

I hope I have not belabored the point, but I thought that it was worthwhile to be sure that this distinction was clear. Hope it helps the discussion.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[P Goldsbury]

To Bruce Sims,

Dear Bruce,

Thank you for that last post. I am not entirely sure whether we are exactly on the same wavelength, so I would like to add a few random thoughts and questions to your post. Whether we are might well become clear. If we are, the discussion will have progressed; if we are not, we can redirect it.

Originally posted by glad2bhere
Dear Peter:

"..., but I think that for the average Japanese the demands of the cultural mythology, in both aspects, are clear and particularly uncompromising if the Japanese family is any way 'traditional'. ..."

PG. In the years I have been living here, I have come to the conclusion that the Japanese, certainly more than the English, possess a coherent and detailed 'mythology', which articulates what it means to be Japanese. I think part of the reason for this is that the sense of onself as an individual is parasitic on, and wholly drawn from, one's sense of the group(s) to which one belongs. Because the society is so tribal, for want of a better term, the expectations the society has of its members are very clear.

As an example, take my very first aikido teacher. He was a graduate of Tokyo University's Law Faculty, but he had struggled, and his parents had also struggled, very hard to get there. After graduation he joined Japanese National Railways and quickly rose through the ranks. He practised aikido at Tokyo University in a club with strong connections with the Meiji Shrine in Tokyo. Needless to say, he presented aikido as a budo strongly linked to shinto and saw his practice as a kind of service to his Emperor. To my mind he was steeped in the mythology and saw exactly the consequnces of this mythology for his own life. In fact he saw his budo training as a worthy adjunct to his life as a professional Japanese, but, he thought the Aikikai Hombu were rather unsophisticated (too large an organisation, which had grown too quickly). He had to give up aikido because of the cancer he was struck down with in his 40s (probably from overwork) and has not encouraged his children to follow in his footsteps. We are still good friends and he is an important source of ideas and material on the martial arts in Japanese history.

But I also think he is a good example of one who has applied the mythology of Japan's warrior culture to his own life, i.e., at a deeper level than that of merely meeting society's expectations. One of the first books he gave me early on in training was Ivan Morris's "The Nobility of Failure:Tragic Heroes in the History of Japan". Have you ever come across this brilliant book?

==========
Thanks for your thoughts. I am a bit concerned that an important distinction is made regarding my earlier post which is why I cited your line up above. The distinction I have in mind once again concerns method rather than content and I want to make sure this is coming across clearly.

A common theme among a few authors on the subject including Breen, Moore/Gilette, and even Campbell is that the venues for demonstrating the application of mythology ("rites of passage") with its representation of archetypes are being eclipsed by the growing shadow of commerce and technology. What seems to be substituted for these venues is a pre-occupation with ones' status and execution of social roles. In this way people in America learn how to manage babies and children but not how to be parents, or learn how to be couples but not how to form a marriage. People learn how to identify a job but not how to develop a career, or (more commonly) people identify a career but are unable to develop a livelihood. When asked to identify that quality that is missing I use the term "soul".

PG. As you describe it, the problem would seem to apply to Japan as much to the USA. To my mind one of the biggest problems facing Japan' educational system at least is not a preoccupation with one's status and execution of social roles, at least not directly, but something which is the result of its own economic success, which is due in turn to the 'samurai' culture of 'gaman' and 'gambaru' which mobilised the nation at war. The problem is the culture of instant gratification of desires and this can be symbolised by the ubiquitous keitai denwa or PHP, the small telephones which have become one of the three 'sacred treasures' for every high school student. Thus, in a university context, the results of the learning process have to be obvious, right now, and there is little sense of the active cultivation of a general critical attitude to one's surroundings. I could go on at great length about this, but I think you understand what I mean. The consequence for koryu and budo is that there is less likelihood for people to make an open ended commitment to something so demanding and which does not come ready equipped with tangible signs of progress.

==========
I believe that a genuine rite of passage will be able to demonstrate to an individual how an archetype such as "king," "warrior," "lover," "magi," "mystic" etc., is actually applied to draw a person out of the best part of themselves and produce a cohesive blend of their skills and attributes within the context of their particular social and cultural reality. I believe that folks like Allan (who shared his romantic venture to Japan) find in the MA a psycho-drama for experimenting with various values, rules, personalities and skills that they have been cheated out of in the sterility of their commercial culture back home. A good MA teacher will be sensitive to this endeavor and know how to help it along. A poor teacher will be of little help or may actually get in the way or even send you off in a nasty direction. But the original purpose of the student/practitioner continues even after they return home, because what they were looking for was a life-changing event, not just some information or fighting skill.

PG. I am not a psychologist and I also regard Jung as more of a philosopher, but I am not sure to what extent an archetype has to demonstrated to an individual and I also think that replacing cheated values etc back home might be one reason why someone like Allan planned to train in Japan. It is one possible scenario. Insofar as it was a conscious decision, I myself came to Japan because of a choice made from among various possibilities, which did not include the sterility of commercial culture in the UK. Nevertheless, I agree that budo training is a psychodrama for experimenting with various values, rules, personalities and skills. I am not sure whether a Japanese martial art serves this need better than any other martial art, or sport. Nor am I sure that if it is to be a Japanese martial art, it is best practised in Japan. In some respects Japan is a dangerous place for a foreiger to study a Japanese martial art, because it adds to the psychodrama the additional myth of the "exile" and I think coping with this requires somewhat special qualities. I say this because I have occasionally been cast in the role of amateur therapist for people whose coming here turned out to be a mistake, but also for people in the UK (before I came here) whose initial choice of aikido as a budo to study also turned out to be a mistake.

==========
If I can use myself as an example for just a minute--- I train to follow a warriors' path-- call it a "warrior achetype." You won't find me walking down the street with weaponry on my belt, a 14th century costume and arrogant/belligerent demeanor. MA has taught me a series of values and skills for addressing situations both personal and social in my life--- the least of which are the combat material. MA has taught me not just to be true to myself, but HOW to do that as well; not just to be honorable, but HOW to do that as well; not just to contribute to my community and nation but how to identify the the best way to do that AND find the resources within myself to make it happen. In American culture such character development is most often left to religions and therapists. In my own vocabulary I would say that MA has helped me to find and develop "soul" in my efforts.

PG. Very interesting. I am not sure that I can characterise quite so clearly why I train. You can also see that our situations are quite different, since I have lived nearly half of my life outside my native country. I came to aikido with a training in what I might call Judaeo-Graeco-European classical culture, which I still believe in. I do not think I have been following the warrior archetype, more perhaps that of someone on a spiritual journey. Perhaps the 'sage', too, since part of my role here (which in fact I have been given) is to look at the 'ura' of Japanese culture and tell the Japanese how they look from the outside.

==========
I hope I have not belabored the point, but I thought that it was worthwhile to be sure that this distinction was clear. Hope it helps the discussion.

PG. So, are we on the same wavelength? I think we are, and come back to a point I made earlier and distinguish between Japanese martial arts training within the home culture (Japanese doing Japanese koryu or budo in Japan) and outside the home culture (non-Japanese doing Japanese koryu or budo inside or outside Japan). I am not sure that the 'mythology' and rites of passage are understood in quite the same way.

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Best rgards to you,

Peter G.
__________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[glad2bhere]

Dear Peter:

“… So, are we on the same wavelength? I think we are…”

Absolutely. Pushing to one side for a moment the various life experiences and backgrounds that make you and I each who we are, I would go so far as to say that our posts could well be a metaphor for the approximations that must be made between the Japanese and American culture regarding both mythology/archetypes as well as the rites of passage. I think the last statements of your post (“…distinguish between Japanese martial arts training within the home culture (Japanese doing Japanese koryu or budo in Japan) and outside the home culture (non-Japanese doing Japanese koryu or budo inside or outside Japan). I am not sure that the 'mythology' and rites of passage are understood in quite the same way….”) may well be the crux of the matter.
The pages of E-BUDO are replete with stories of people attempting to actualize what they have come to believe our American archetypes involve. Failing to find satisfaction using American methods for actualizing these in their lives these seekers then approach Japanese culture and make what I consider three grave mistakes as they do.
The first mistake is that the American seeker assumes that mythology and archypes are identical constructs in both cultures (ie. “a samurai is a samurai”; “honor is honor”; etc. ) It must be a real bath of cold water to find out that (predictably) what goes by the name of “teacher” in one culture does not directly translate to another culture.
The second mistake I can imagine is that those venues that are used for a rite of passage (you mentioned Aikido for your friend) are not interpreted, used or appreciated in the same way as they might be in America. Gawd love us, we Americans do tend to romanticize things, and to find oneself in a venue whose execution does not match our idealized expectations must likewise be a jolt. I can guess that the folks who come to talk with you about their quest in Japan for self-realization are probably more than a little concerned that MA activities don’t carry the exotic, transcendent patina with which many practitioners here in the States like to encourage in their practice.
The last mistake I would project onto these seekers is the assumption that Japanese (or any other culture) don’t mind having their cultural assets used as a psycho-social experiment in personal development.(“… Nor am I sure that if it is to be a Japanese martial art, it is best practised in Japan. In some respects Japan is a dangerous place for a foreiger to study a Japanese martial art, because it adds to the psychodrama the additional myth of the "exile" and I think coping with this requires somewhat special qualities….”) We Americans deride the Germans for their attempts to capture Country&Western music in their inns and clubs right down to their chaps and boots. I think we also resent Taiwanese for occasionally beating us at Little League Baseball, Japanese have the arrogance and insensitivity to send pitchers and fielders to our major league baseball parks, or the French do not show proper regard for the Disney Theme Park outside of Paris. I am left to wonder what makes American truth-seekers believe that Japanese culture doesn’t mind our coming to play at Koryu, of all places--- in their own backyard. How is it that we are surprised that Japanese schools don’t fling their doors open to us and pour out their traditions and wisdom for our agenda, or amusement?

The truly nice thing about these posts are the little nuggets I can take away in the form of reference material. I’ll be looking for Ivan Morris’ book on my next trip to BARNES AND NOBLES’.

There is one point that I wanted to raise with you and I do this because of your position as a teacher in the subject you have chosen. Have you found archetypes in the Japanese culture that do NOT have a correlate in American culture? I mention this because of the common experience of certain constructs not easily translating between cultures. I wonder if this generalizes to specific myths or archtypes which can not find an equivalent in American culture.
Many thanks for your posts. Good stuff all.
Best Wishes,
Bruce

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
Dear Peter:

There is one point that I wanted to raise with you and I do this because of your position as a teacher in the subject you have chosen. Have you found archetypes in the Japanese culture that do NOT have a correlate in American culture? I mention this because of the common experience of certain constructs not easily translating between cultures. I wonder if this generalizes to specific myths or archtypes which can not find an equivalent in American culture.
Many thanks for your posts. Good stuff all.
Best Wishes,
Bruce

Dear Bruce,

This is a difficult question to answer, mainly because I have never found archetypes particularly useful in making cross-cultural comparisons. I mean, I am sure they exist, of course, but I am less sure that they add much of value to any detailed cross-cultural comparison. Of course I am aware of the work of C G Jung, Jane Harrison, Levi-Strauss and others, especially Jung's more interesting stuff on psychology and alchemy, but I have never had much time for the theory that archetypes form part of something called the collective unconscious. (The final chapter of G S Kirk, in "Myth: Its Meaning and Functions in Ancient & Other Cultures" [1970] gives some indication of what the problems are.)

One thing I have noticed here, however, is the degree to which Japanese believe that leaving Japan will affect their identity as Japanese. I have seen this in many forms, one of which was a reluctance of some students to be away from Japan for an extended period of time. The underlying concept seems to be that Japaneseness is like a full glass of liquid. If you learn English (too much) or expose yourself deeply to another culture, the glass will remain full, but the Japaneseness will somehow diminish. The students did not buy my suggestion that by going abroad you get an extra glass, but the first glass remains full of the original liquid. I am never encountered Americans or English students talking like this, but I do not know whether this reluctance can be captured in archetypical or mythical terms.

The three grave mistakes you mention in your latest post indicate to me the problems involved in making supposedly 'objective' statements about other cultures and so I would like to take one step back and consider some more fundamental questions.

It has been a matter of some discussion in this thread whether America actually has one or not, but let us assume that we can sensibly talk of 'X Culture', 'Y Culture'. The Japanese do this all the time, especially when it is a matter of 'traditional culture' and a koryu art is regarded as a part of such culture. We can ask a number of questions:

1. What is involved for a native of X culture in the understanding of this culture? What constitutes knowledge of one's own culture?
('Knowledge' is probably a bad choice of words here. It is meant as a general term for all the cognitive and other skills a native deploys in relation to the culture.)

2. For a native of the culture, in what sense can this knowledge be said to be complete?
(Here I am focusing on such skills like language skills. A native speaker can be said to have 100% competence in the native language--and this does not mean knowing all the vocabulary of the language, but what other areas of 'cultural competence' does a native exhibit 'completely'?)

3. Is this knowledge primarily cognitive or practical, or both? If both, is there any question of degree?
(Clearly the native has to have some knowledge pertaining to the culture that can be called factual, but much of this knowledge consists in mastering certain practices, like making jokes and swearing, for example. Undergoing a rite of passage would also be a matter of deploying the whole range of cognitive and practical aspects of the culture.)

4. If we could make a list of essential factors involved in a native of X culture 'knowing' or 'understanding' X culture, would the same factors appear in a list of essential factors for the native of Y culture, and so on?
(Perhaps we could make such a list, but I am not sure how useful it would be. For example, George Lakoff states that we (i.e., humans) use metaphors, not merely in language, but also in thnking. Much of our approach to the world is mediated through certain very basic categories, such as BODY = MACHINE, or BODY = CONTAINER, but the problem is that all his examples of this supposedly universal phenomenon come from American English. A very interesting question for me is the extent to which such basic categories can be found or duplicated in Japanese.)

5. To what extent is the knowledge referred to above culture-bound and does this have any problems for 'objectivity'? Can one be 'objective' in relation to one's own culture?
(This is where I have a problem with universal truths, archetypes etc. A native operates within the culture according to certain implicit principles of logic, truth and ethics which are taken to be common human property. But the fact that they are 'culture-bound' raises questions whether a certain archetype, for example, is found in every culture and if it s really the same. Notice I am not saying that universal truths do not exist; what I am doing is questioning the extent we perceive these outside the boundaries of our own culture.)

6. The above questions involved factors relating to Native x and X culture, native y and Y culture, but when native x approaches Y culture and native y approaches X culture, are the same factors involved, or different factors?

All of the first three questions focus on different aspects of the same basic question. There are the mythology and rites of passage and these are all presented in the language and according to the fundamental cognitive categories and ethical/spiritual values of the culture. These questions, by the way, are discussed extensively here in my classes and you would be surprised at the diversity of the answers, even in one class of Japanese students.

I think all of these questions present themselves in a very acute and concentrated way when a non-Japanese practises a Japanese koryu. They do not appear, possibly at all, and certainly not in the same way and with the same immediacy, when a Japanese practises the same koryu.

Best wishes,

Peter Goldsbury,
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by P Goldsbury
One thing I have noticed here, however, is the degree to which Japanese believe that leaving Japan will affect their identity as Japanese. I have seen this in many forms, one of which was a reluctance of some students to be away from Japan for an extended period of time. [...] I have never encountered Americans or English students talking like this, but I do not know whether this reluctance can be captured in archetypical or mythical terms.
this is a really interesting point of discussion. i have heard two varying views on how japanese see their "japaneseness".

1) a child of japanese parents born in a foreign country comes to japan, and in spite of the fact that they have never had any extended exposure to japanese society, some japanese whom they encounter expect this foreign-born "japanese" person to conform to japanese codes of behaviour. these japanese explain that the foreign-born child has japanese blood in their veins, and thus is "Yamato". the true definition of "Yamato" is unclear to me, but it seems to point at a kind of "eternal japaneseness"; how might this fit into our thread on mythology? the concept appears to run counter to the feelings of the students mentioned above.

2) in contrast, witness such institutions as "Nihon Gakkou", schools which are established in foreign countries to serve japanese ex-pat communities. from what i understand, these schools provide not only instruction based on the japanese curriculum, but also maintain the total social structure of a public school in japan. i assume this is to avoid the trauma experienced by many "returnee children", students who attend local schools in foreign countries and then have difficulty re-integrating into a japanese school.

i think this is indicative of the thinking which Gregory Clark often describes as typically japanese, in that for so many years of social isolation from the rest of the world, japanese truly did develop a thoroughly self-referential code of behaviour. every society around the world is self-referential or subjective in it's perception of itself, but japan seems to have grown one step futher towards a more insular view of itself and the outside world. it is my perception that some japanese young people are frightened by the notion that "japan really is too different from the rest of world for either 'side' to understand each other", and so they prefer to avoid "contact". some of my middle school students are actually repulsed by the idea of trying to speak english to some american junior high school students who are coming to visit in a couple of weeks.

looking forward to hearing back from others.

cheers, jeff hamacher

[Neil Hawkins]

The problems related to cultural mythology and its retention/continuation are much more wide spread than America and Japan, and I don't think that it is anything new. I would think that if we were to have had this same conversation 400 years ago, the same points would be true, whether we sat in an Edo tea-house, a Boston tea-house or an English tea-house.

The 'elder' geration has always derided the 'younger' generation for their lack of cultural respect. This is the very reason that we have a live and continually evolving culture. I also think that despite some peoples best efforts (or because of them) the 'new' cultures don't always differ that much from the old ones.

I think that the main concern is one of dilution. Australia is a multi-cultural society and pretty much always has been. Previously the people that came here were mostly European, and their cultural ideals had some similarities, enough that acceptance was automatic. Now many of our immigrants are Asian, this creates a whole new set of issues.

There was a public outcry because of the influx of Asian immigrants to this country. Many immediately labelled this as racism, but the rumblings still spread. Part of this was definitely racist in origin, the fear of someone or something different. But I'm sure that part of it was the fear that we were losing our cultural identity.

Australia has alway had a strong tradition of cultural identity, everyone that came here embraced that culture and continued it. Much like America the identity revolved around the great outdoors, dealing with nature in all it's many forms. Fighting for what you believe is right even when you are not directly threatened and so on. Also like America, the beginning of the end for this ideal was urbanisation. As more people lived in the cities and less in the country, the way of life passed from reality to mythology.

We still cling to that mythology, which is why characters like Mick "Crocodile" Dundee are so popular. What is happening today though is seen as a threat to those archtypes. Asian groups are moving in and setting up their own communities, where english is definitely a second language, and their own religions take precedence. Instead of looking at these communities as a opportunity to expand our horizons and increase our knowledge many Australians feel threatened by the dillution of a culture that they stopped embracing many years ago.

I think the same can be said for Japan, priorities changed over the last 150 years, the Samurai passed from reality to myth and commercialism blended with nationalism took over. The young Japanese today like the youth anywhere want to rebel against the establishment, but have a strong affinity with the past.

The problem is that, as Joe said, with today's high speed multimedia everything is accelerated. The youth of the 60's rebeled against the establishment of the 50's. The youth of the 70's rebeled against the excesses of the 60's and so on. We end up with people that can remember many cultural ideals in their lifetime and obviously cling to the one that they are happiest with. Others look outside for other alternatives.

The strength of koryu (or basket weaving, quilting, etc) is that it provides a path through the quagmire of cultural ideals. It gives us models of thought and behaviour to follow so that we do not have to make up our own minds as to which aspect of culture is right for us. The appeal is all the reasons previously stated, but, like religion for some people, it shows us a way to live that is acceptable and beneficial in a world that is confusing and often contradictory.

I don't think any of us would say that we consciously went looking for a different culture to embrace when we started martial arts. They were different, almost scary in their practicality and offered a wealth of experince alien to our lives to that point. Peter mentioned the Aum Shinri-Kyo, the reasons people become involved in these sects are the same, or at least very similar.

There is a fine line between Cult and Culture.

Regards

Neil

[Neil Hawkins]

Oh, and a question for Toby that I meant to ask some time ago.

You say that owing to your position you are now expected to recite prayers and norito, as a link to the mythological or divine origins of your art.

How do you rationalise these prayers to yourself? Do you need to?

Do you now firmly believe that the origins of the art are divine and that it is essential that you, as an honoured student, must keep the beliefs alive? Or, do you treat it as a something that must be done, part of the whole experience?

I have to admit that I find it slightly anachronistic to see a class full of Ninjutsu practicioners performing Mikkyo chants and hand motions when they have little knowledge of what it is or why they are doing it. Whereas, clapping and then bowing to a Kamidana before training does not strike me as strange. I am prepared to believe that a spirit does reside in that small house and that it is polite of me to show respect and make him aware of my intention to train, just as those that passed before me did.

As you spend more time in the arts and in Japan, how many of you you really absorb the culture and beliefs, rather than going through the motions?

Regards

Neil

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Neil Hawkins


As you spend more time in the arts and in Japan, how many of you you really absorb the culture and beliefs, rather than going through the motions?

Regards

Neil

I have no idea of actual numbers, but for myself I would answer the above question, "As much as I am allowed to," and also comment that in Japan these alternatives are not seen as mutually exclusive.

In contrast to Australia and the US, Japan does not present itself as a multi-cultural society.

"For Japanese governments, the preservation of Japanese culture and language has been a key element of policy for 400 years. From Toyotomi Hideyoshi's banning of Christianity in 1587 to modern time, Japan has only grudgingly allowed foreign incursions, always considering the danger that foreign things may dilute Japanese things."

The above quotation is from an article by Marshall R Childs in the July 6 edition of the "Daily Yomiuri", concerning the theory that Japanese should not learn English before puberty, on the grounds that "the Japanese brain is so soft and vulnerable that Japanese laguage and culture are not yet firmly established in it and threfore ... we should delay teaching foreign languages until Japanese has at last taken root and the adolsecent brain has completed its defences."

I see the effects of the above theory every day in my university language classes and I am certain that the passage quoted offers a plausible explanation of why foreign academics like myself are such a rare breed and why there are virtually no foreigners running martial arts dojos here.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury,
____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[wmuromoto]

Prof. Goldsbury had an interesting note about that newspaper article (snip):

...The above quotation is from an article by Marshall R Childs in the July 6 edition of the "Daily Yomiuri", concerning the theory that Japanese should not learn English before puberty, on the grounds that "the Japanese brain is so soft and vulnerable that Japanese laguage and culture are not yet firmly established in it and threfore ... we should delay teaching foreign languages until Japanese has at last taken root and the adolsecent brain has completed its defences."...

Interesting that (I assume) a non-Japanese such as Childs would say that. It reminds me of some Japanese government official trying to defend its import ban on foreign beef by saying that Japanese intestines are different from other intestines, so they could digest Japanese beef better.

The last time I checked, my family didn't jump the fence so I'm pretty much pure Japanese-Okinawan, but I've had no problems eating at McDonalds and other places that serve non-Japanese beef all my life, and I've had no problems. But Prof. Goldsbury does highlight one of the frustrating things about learning Things Japanese. It's a double edged sword. If you are a markedly different looking foreigner and learn a smidgeon of a Japanese "thing," many Japanese will fill your head with compliments because they think it's just so hard for any non-Japanese to get their culture. Yet, if through due diligence you mainstream yourself, sometimes their filters go awry. A friend of mine was a blonde, blue-eyed hakujin who spoke Japanese fluently; he taught linguistics and could slip into nearly any dialect or hogen, and I 'd just laugh when we'd walk into a restaurant, he'd order for us in Kyoto-ben, and the waiter would be looking straight at him, then turn to either me or his Japanese-born wife and talk to them, like my friend was an alien and we were talking through him via ESP.

The danger for budo students is that some Japanese will treat us like like that, but always as an "outsider," never fully capable of understanding the guts of their system. Or, if we're lucky, we run into teachers and fellow students who aren't as narrow minded, and treat us (for good and bad) as just another student, only with a funny accent and from somewhere else, and we become friends through a mutual curiosity of our respective lives. I prefer being treated like the latter, being considered "inside" the ryu, regardless of ethnicity or point of origin.

This is peripheral, but I'm also cognizant of this "insider/outsider" mentality because here in Hawaii there was news about a "revival" of the Hawaiian martial art of lua. The first group of graduates were all part-Hawaiians and they had to prove their ethnicity by producing family lineage charts before they were accepted into the reconstructed school. Their lessons were conducted closed to outsiders, save for a public demonstration and graduation ceremony broadcast on local TV. The teacher(s) were quoted as intending to keep it closed only to those with some Hawaiian blood.

They have their reasons, as cited in a newspaper article, but I'm also saddened by their decision since it is based partially on race being a deciding factor in acceptance, rather than attitude and spirit, which I think is more important.

Anyway, my own two cents' worth...

Wayne Muromoto

[wmuromoto]

Prof. Goldsbury had an interesting note about that newspaper article (snip):

...The above quotation is from an article by Marshall R Childs in the July 6 edition of the "Daily Yomiuri", concerning the theory that Japanese should not learn English before puberty, on the grounds that "the Japanese brain is so soft and vulnerable that Japanese laguage and culture are not yet firmly established in it and threfore ... we should delay teaching foreign languages until Japanese has at last taken root and the adolsecent brain has completed its defences."...

Interesting that (I assume) a non-Japanese such as Childs would say that. It reminds me of some Japanese government official trying to defend its import ban on foreign beef by saying that Japanese intestines are different from other intestines, so they could digest Japanese beef better.

The last time I checked, my family didn't jump the fence so I'm pretty much pure Japanese-Okinawan, but I've had no problems eating at McDonalds and other places that serve non-Japanese beef all my life, and I've had no problems. But Prof. Goldsbury does highlight one of the frustrating things about learning Things Japanese. It's a double edged sword. If you are a markedly different looking foreigner and learn a smidgeon of a Japanese "thing," many Japanese will fill your head with compliments because they think it's just so hard for any non-Japanese to get their culture. Yet, if through due diligence you mainstream yourself, sometimes their filters go awry. A friend of mine was a blonde, blue-eyed hakujin who spoke Japanese fluently; he taught linguistics and could slip into nearly any dialect or hogen, and I 'd just laugh when we'd walk into a restaurant, he'd order for us in Kyoto-ben, and the waiter would be looking straight at him, then turn to either me or his Japanese-born wife and talk to them, like my friend was an alien and we were talking through him via ESP.

The danger for budo students is that some Japanese will treat us like like that, but always as an "outsider," never fully capable of understanding the guts of their system. Or, if we're lucky, we run into teachers and fellow students who aren't as narrow minded, and treat us (for good and bad) as just another student, only with a funny accent and from somewhere else, and we become friends through a mutual curiosity of our respective lives. I prefer being treated like the latter, being considered "inside" the ryu, regardless of ethnicity or point of origin.

This is peripheral, but I'm also cognizant of this "insider/outsider" mentality because here in Hawaii there was news about a "revival" of the Hawaiian martial art of lua. The first group of graduates were all part-Hawaiians and they had to prove their ethnicity by producing family lineage charts before they were accepted into the reconstructed school. Their lessons were conducted closed to outsiders, save for a public demonstration and graduation ceremony broadcast on local TV. The teacher(s) were quoted as intending to keep it closed only to those with some Hawaiian blood.

They have their reasons, as cited in a newspaper article, but I'm also saddened by their decision since it is based partially on race being a deciding factor in acceptance, rather than attitude and spirit, which I think is more important.

Anyway, my own two cents' worth...

Wayne Muromoto

[Earl Hartman]

Yo, Wayne. Hope everything's OK with you. How have you been?

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by wmuromoto
It reminds me of some Japanese government official trying to defend its import ban on foreign beef by saying that Japanese intestines are different from other intestines, so they could digest Japanese beef better.
the variations on that theme are endless, aren't they? how about the "foreign-made skis won't work on japanese snow" story that i heard a while back. i have no idea if it's true, but even if it's not there are plenty of examples symptomatic of the old Nihonjinron.
Prof. Goldsbury does highlight one of the frustrating things about learning Things Japanese. It's a double edged sword. If you are a markedly different looking foreigner and learn a smidgeon of a Japanese "thing," many Japanese will fill your head with compliments because they think it's just so hard for any non-Japanese to get their culture. Yet, if through due diligence you mainstream yourself, sometimes their filters go awry.
my experience in japan tells me the same thing: newbies in japan seem to get all kinds of positive attention, but after a few years here the "newbie shine" wears off. i have this paranoid worry that somehow japanese people know "this is a jaded foreigner so i don't have to be nice" when they see me coming.;) as for o-seji, i just come up with polite ways to deflect the compliment into a topic of conversation that has nothing to do with me, or else i insist that i stink at whatever activity i'm being complimented on and say that, "i'm simply so happy to have this opportunity to learn about traditional japanese culture."
The danger for budo students is that some Japanese will treat us like like that, but always as an "outsider," never fully capable of understanding the guts of their system. Or, if we're lucky, we run into teachers and fellow students who aren't as narrow minded, and treat us (for good and bad) as just another student, only with a funny accent and from somewhere else, and we become friends through a mutual curiosity of our respective lives. I prefer being treated like the latter, being considered "inside" the ryu, regardless of ethnicity or point of origin.
this is the heart of the matter for non-japanese training in japanese martial arts. i imagine the same might be said of the martial arts of other countries as well. how far can we expect to progress towards a full understanding of the arts we practise if ours is not originally a japanese mythology? how much progress can we make if the japanese that we train with or under operate on the assumption that "foreigners can't 'get it' precisely because they're not japanese"?

my experience has taught me to let a lot of that stuff ride; if someone in my dojo speaks to me as though i were i child incapable of using japanese never mind learning japanese martial arts, i try to look at it from their standpoint. certainly many of the older people i train with have had their heads jammed full of preconceptions regarding non-japanese (almost as many preconceptions as non-japanese have regarding japan). and even the younger ones are often pretty ignorant of what i know and don't know. i try to bear in mind that it may be an honest attempt at helping me to train more effectively and correctly. and i think that part of the tradition involves learning to shut up and listen because there's a good chance you don't know and understand what you're being told. for a talker like me, this is a very valuable lesson.:D

if the foundation of japanese mythology is this enduring concept of "heaven-descended uniqueness", then i believe it will have to prepare to be shaken. there are a number of non-japanese who might fairly be called masters of various japanese martial arts and the fact that theirs is not originally a japanese mythology doesn't appear to have hampered their progress. all of us who study japanese martial arts stand to benefit by trying to understand the abstractions which underly the concrete aspects of training. the greater the number of foreign practitioners, perhaps the greater the level of understanding foreigners will have of japan and its culture. with any luck, our japanese colleagues will be broadening their perceptions of the outside world at the same time.

cheers, jeff hamacher

Hiya Neil,

You asked:

"You say that owing to your position you are now expected to recite prayers and norito, as a link to the mythological or divine origins of your art."

"How do you rationalise these prayers to yourself? Do you need to?"

"Do you now firmly believe that the origins of the art are divine and that it is essential that you, as an honoured student, must keep the beliefs alive? Or, do you treat it as a something that must be done, part of the whole experience?"

____________________

These are very good questions. Takamura Sensei ocassionally quizzed me about my feelings and attitudes concerning religion /spirituality. I was an eager participant in these discussions as I have long studied the origins of religion and been fascinated by why and what people ultimately believe concerning their conncection to divinity and mortality. At the time I had no idea what he was up to but now I realize he was probing my mind in relation to how I would answer the very questions you pose.

I was raised to be very open minded and accept that no philosophy or religion has a corner on ultimate truth. That all religions/philosophies are imperfect reflections of a deeper set of truths, unseeable in our present incarnation. ( I know this doesn't jive with the more fundamentalist versions of western religion but that's not my concern.) For this reason I don't need to rationalize these prayers to myself. I appreciate them for what the are, simply a rich part the ryu's traditional connection to it's past, both earthly and other worldly. If these prayers and ceremonies traditionally associated with the ryu threaten the convictions of someone who desires to be a student then maybe we are the wrong school for them. An art like TSYR is not for everyone and to attempt to make it so would strip it of it's identity. The ryu''s association with the flexible willow tree was more than merely technical to Takamura Sensei. Serious students should demonstrate flexibility of mind and heart every bit as importantly as physical principles and ability.

When properly taught the very nature of the arts we learn force us to confront the responsabilities associated with their real world use, both now and tomorrow. I believe in this training process we must be led to confront our own fears and more base instincts. If we don't at least confront some spiritual questions we are not experiencing shugyo to it's fullest.

Do I believe that the origins of the art are divine? Well that sort depends on how you define divine doesn't it. As a teacher I believe the spiritual dimensions and ceremonies of the ryu should be viewed as part of the whole experience while accepting that each individual will color it in his or her own way.

I hope I answered your question,

Toby

[Neil Hawkins]

Thanks Toby,

You did an admirable job of explaining your thoughts.

Neil