Kashima-Shinryu and Aikido

[Ilgenfritz]

In an attempt to get a better understanding of Kenjutsu I was reading some information on the Kashima-Shinryu North America web site when I cam across this page
http://ksr.facade.com/essays/aikido.html
The page implies that there is no relationship between Aikido and Kashima-Shinryu and goes further by saying that the two are far to incompatibly for one to practice both. Unfortunately the incompatibilities are not mentioned.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what make the two so incompatible?

[Brently Keen]

To expand on this, the site also states the following:

"Daitôryû, in turn, was largely formulated by Takeda Sôkaku (1860--1943), based on a variety of martial arts popular in the Fukushima area that Takeda had studied, mainly the Mizuno Shintôryû and Shinmyôryû styles of jûjutsu, as well as a little bit of the Ono-ha Ittô-ryû and Kashima-Shinden Jiki-Shinkage-ryû styles of swordsmanship."

Does anyone know the source of this information? Karl, if you're out there would you care to elaborate?

Brently Keen

[Meik Skoss]

Aikido is a system created by a rather idiosyncratic man to help in his own personal physical and spiritual training. Derived from the classical martial arts (Daito-ryu for the most part), it is not really about combat, though it can be an effective as self-defense when push comes to shove.

Kashima Shin-ryu, on t'other hand, IS a classical martial art, going back a looooong way. It has changed somewhat over the years, to be sure, but it retains its original vitality and essence as one of the bujutsu, martial arts intended for use on the battlefield.

For a student of Kashima Shin-ryu to train in aikido, most likely it would be necessary for him to tone down the reactions he spent so much time and effort to acquire. For an aikido student to train in Kashima Shin-ryu, it would entail acquiring a whole new set of attitudes and skills that would come into conflict with the putative aims and purpose of aikido. Actually, that's true for any koryu, not just Kashima Shin-ryu. I began training in koryu back in the '70s and it has pretty much "ruined" me for normal aikido practice. The folks I know who have done the same have to make a choice: if'n they concentrate on aikido, it dilutes their kobudo training. If they focus on koryu, though, they generally wind up becoming totally dissatisfied with the foibles of most aikido training, winding up as I did -- sort of betwixt and between until they can finally make up their minds as to what they want/where they want to go in budo.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I've been at it for a while 'n seen a whole lot of people come through various arts. Not a lot of aiki-types make it in kobudo, for certain sure.

[Tony Peters]

Mr Skoss, I played on an Aikido mat a while after starting Koryu before I came to that realization. However I have just started judo and so far I don't see that I'll have the same problems that I did with Aikido. This could be related to Judo's lack of weapons or possibly the competitive nature of Judo compared to Aikido's more passive/ helping nature. I will say one thing for Judo though I 'm in good shape (by military standards I scored an excellent last May) I have never been this sore except after a long hikiotoshi session.

[Karl Friday]

Originally posted by Ilgenfritz
Ithe Kashima-Shinryu North America web site . . . implies that there is no relationship between Aikido and Kashima-Shinryu and goes further by saying that the two are far to incompatibly for one to practice both. . . .
I was wondering if anyone could tell me what make the two so incompatible?

It's difficult to explain how the two arts are different, but they are--fundamentally so. The styles of movement, strategic objectives, timing, uses of distance, and underlying philosophies of the two arts differ profoundly--in spite of the fact that they often seem similar at first glance.
The two arts are kind of like clear gasoline and gin: they may seem similar in appearance and some properties (they both burn, for example), but in the most important respects, the differences are more critical than the apparent similarities. Putting gin in your car would mess up your engine, and drinking gasoline would do a number on your body. And mixing the two gives you something that really doesn't serve the purpose of either.

My experience, both with my own students and with observing students of my colleagues and teachers, has been that people who come into Kashima-Shinryu with Aikido background are among the hardest to teach. They simply have too much to un-learn, and much of this is fairly subtle, when you're looking at it from the outside (as beginning students are). It's actually must easier to re-orient karate or kendo practitioners, because the differences in movement and such are much more obvious.

And, on the flip side, during my brief (4 month) sojourn in Aikido, I was the world's worst student--largely because I wasn't interested in becoming an Aikido-ist, just in learning a bit more about Aikido and in improving a few facets of my jujutsu technique. I did everything wrong: my rolls were wrong, my stances were always off, my techniques were always too small and mis-focused. When I moved on my own timing, distance and such, the teacher laughed at me and said it wasn't Aikido; when I did things exactly as I was being taught, they felt completely wrong to me, and my techniques worked no better than those of any of the other beginning Aikido students in the class (none of whom had any background in other arts).

Perhaps the most telling point on this matter is the relationship between Kunii Zen'ya (the 18th generation Kashima-Shinryu headmaster) and Ueshiba Morihei. The two were contemporaries, acquaintences, and occasional drinking companions. But Kunii was also openly--and vocally--contemptuous of Aikido and of Ueshiba's philosophies on martial art. The two apparently spent a great deal of time arguing with one another, and calling each other names . . .

Aikido and Kashima-Shinryu are probably best thought of as analagous to related-but-different religions--such as Christianity and Islam. You can convert from one to another (although this often entails problems that don't occur in the case of believers raised within the religion), but you can't practice both simultaneously. If you try, you're not really practicing either one.

[mdheiler]

I have a follow up question on comments made by Mr. Skoss and Dr. Friday, and of course anyone else who would like to participate in the discussion. Would you also consider training in the koryu incompatible with training in Yoshinkan style aikido? My own experience has been that the difference between koryu and mainline aikido is almost as great as that between Yoshinkan and mainline aikido.

Thanks,
Michael D. Heiler

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

IMHO the difference between arts like the two mentioned, and I have only a passing knowledge of Kashima Shin ryu that comes from very limited observation and Dr. Friday's excellent book "Legacies of the Sword", is the incompatibility of the core operating systems.

If you are interested in becoming adept in certain skills that require a particular way of defining the interaction between human physiology, psychology and universe reality (laws of physics) it is necessary to not only see these relationships in that particular way but to so inculcate them into your mind/body that they are your reality. It becomes not something that you do but something that you are. The art then becomes not what you do (ie. technique) but how you do it. Techniques can look similar in their physical relationship and yet be completely different because of how they are done. It also follows then that techniques can look very different and yet use a similar operating system.

For instance I perceive what appears to be a similar operating system to the one I use in Systema. At first glance the techniques look quite odd yet after more careful observation the way the matrix, please excuse my analogy I lack a better one. is accessed appears very similar. I will find out in September when I work with Mikail Ryabko if this is in fact the case.

When Aikidoka observe certain techniques that exist in their system done by practitioners of Yanagi ryu, of the Yoshida han, it appears that virtually the same thing is being done. This is not however the case. Because of the very different operating systems, techniques such as nikajo (nikkyo), are very differently applied with different intention and different results.

I hope that my viewpoint contributes to answering the question posed in this thread.