Saigo Shiro (aka: Shida Shiro) / "Yama arashi"

[yamatodamashii]

There is currently a thread in the Judo forum regarding a throw called "Yama Arashi". I do not consider myself a Judoka, but I did have the opportunity to work out under a rokudan in Okinawa.
Quickly cutting to the point: My instructor, when the topic came up, said that "Yama Arashi" was an Aikijutsu technique. Could someone verify that for me? If YA is in the Daito-ryu curriculum, how it executed?

[profsarj]

Yama Arashi is the technique introduced by Shiro Saigo, then formerly of Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu, while competing under the Judo banner.

Hope that this info is useful.

Prof. Darrell Sarjeant

[Brently Keen]

It's a Daito-ryu secret. :D

Supposedly at the time, Shiro Saigo was the only one who could execute this technique (yama arashi). Although there are several other techniques that go by the name "yama arashi", Saigo's technique was not passed on in Judo. Even in Daito-ryu, there seems to be much speculation as to which technique it may have been.

Tradition has it that Shiro Saigo, the adopted son of Tanomo Saigo was the first designated heir of Daito-ryu's "oshikiuchi" from which Daito-ryu's aikijujutsu is said to derive. But eventually, Sokaku Takeda replaced him.

Supposedly, Saigo was torn between loyalty to Jigoro Kano and Daito-ryu, so he retired to Kyushu where he continued to practice only swimming and kyudo. He had no students and his "yama arashi" technique may have even died with him. Of course every imitation Daito-ryu group now claims a secret link to either Shiro and/or his adopted father Tanomo, because they have no link to Sokaku Takeda who as the reviver of the tradition (chuko no so), was the first to teach Daito-ryu to outsiders. But there is no evidence whatsoever to support these so called Saigo-ha claims.

Okamoto sensei has not said what he knows of this technique (yama arashi), prefering that we don't waste our energy memorizing the names of techniques, or speculating about history, but instead he says, "Just practice".

"If you master aiki", he says, "you can do yama arashi or any other technique." Then he does several differnt techniques, and each time he smiles and calls it "yama arashi". He was clearly implying that the name of the techniques don't mean anything.

There's no doubt that many folks today would like to discover what this mysterious technique may have been like, in the hopes that they might discover some "secret trick" that would enable them to defeat today's NHB champions. Childish fantasies aside, I interpret Okamoto sensei's comments to mean that even if this technique was passed down within Daito-ryu and known by him or any of the other Daito-ryu masters, that it would prove useless to everyone else unless they had first mastered "aiki", therefore he'd prefer that we train in such a way as to master the "essence" of Daito-ryu, rather than worry about various specific techniques. This is consistent with the idea that "aiki" is an essential component of Daito-ryu's rather unique operating system.

It was said by other "jujutsu/judoka" at the time that Saigo's techniques were unique to him. It wasn't just that no one else could copy his techniques, but also that Saigo was able to effectively use these sophisticated techniques against the most skilled and feared jujutsu fighters of the day. His skill was naturally attributed to the training he received as a youth in Aizu. Although he was he was competing in matches and tournaments for Jigoro Kano, helping to promote Judo at the time, it's generally understood that he used "aiki" techniques and principles he learned from the "oshikiuchi" in order to win. Although these rough and tumble challenge matches were a far cry from the Judo tournaments of today, they were still competetive matches.

Another time when asked about it, Okamoto sensei said something like, "Yama arashi is a technique for shiai, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is for real situations."

FWIW.

Brently Keen

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Brently Keen

Supposedly at the time, Shiro Saigo was the only one who could execute this technique (yama arashi). Although there are several other techniques that go by the name "yama arashi", Saigo's technique was not passed on in Judo. Even in Daito-ryu, there seems to be much speculation as to which technique it may have been.



I agree with Brently, as this is the story. No one knows anything for sure, and as many judo/jujutsu ryu which exist, there are at least that many descriptions and kata of yama arashi today. But the daito ryu is one of the hard to believe, if you believe Shiro to have been only about fourteen at the time he went to the Kodokan, but even this is somewhat in doubt. From where he came, is not, as his nickname was little "Aizu" warrior, and, as of this morning, there is a description of Okazaki's kata of yama arashi (Kodenkan or danzan ryu).

There is, of course, the story that he could have not used an aiki technique because he could not have had that much instriction in daito ryu. This one, I will leave to whomever wants to reveal it, as it matters little.

I also agree with Brently in that names of technique do not matter at all. My second, and last, instructor, had never taught by way of terminology, even though he was from Japan, so there is good thinking here, as well. To this day, after thirty-seven years of judo, I must look at a book or the handout I have just given my students for the techniques they will be learning in the next however many weeks. This is either due to my teacher or my memory. I do not remember which :D . Naming techniques, especially if you do not speak the language, has little to do with waza. Doing the waza is always of much more importance. Now this is not what my elders or peers think, in general, but it does have merit. The stories of a clash between Takeda Sokaku and Kano Jigoro are just that: stories. Either way, what I know of Saigo Shiro, is that he did leave the Kodokan and did go on to do kyujutsu (kyudo). He did win the most infamous of judo shiai, or shi ni ai, and with a technique called yama arashi. Minutes were taken at the shiai but know one knows for sure. The novel Sugata Sanshiro gives us a hint in that it was written by the son of one of the contestants in those matches. The movie by that name is so censored, as to only give the appearance that it may have been a throw in which the foot does leave the ground, and it also hints that uke was thrown across the room. To see a fun, if not accurate description of the match, go to: http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html . But this match was sensational only in that little Shiro beat a man of fearsome talent, and of much larger build. It was another match, a draw, after 55 minutes of fighting, which is the one said to be that which put judo "on the map" to stay. The use of an aiki technique is as plausible as every other waza which is said to be YA, and, at the very least, it did leave a trail to the plausibility for aiki. Go to the judo forum for a discussion of yama arashi, and to another thread there which has taken a turn into YA territory as well, titled "poorly executed waza in shiai," I think is what it is.

Sincerely,

[JOEY]

I HAVE SEEN AN INTERPRETATION OF YAMA ARASHI BY OBATA SENSEI IN TH BOOK Samurai Aikijitsu. Kodokan Judo also has a version but it is no longer in the sylallabus

[Brently Keen]

While I mean no disrespect to Obata sensei, he is a strong aikido teacher and very accomplished swordsman. I do not believe the book "Samurai Aikijutsu" is an authorative book about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu techniques or history.

I believe the title more accurately reflects not the content of the techniques in the book, but rather the premise of the book which strongly stresses the legacy of the samurai spirit which still survives in some aikido styles. Obata sensei seems to lament the general tendency of most modern aikido styles to emphasize the "do" to such an extent that they lose their martial effectiveness. So the title of the book emphasizes "jutsu" instead of "do".

The book also naturally reflects Obata sensei's own philosophy and "hard style" aikido which is basically like the Yoshinkan Aikido he learned under the late Gozo Shioda sensei.

While I'll probably get flamed for saying this (I always do) it's not my intention to revive the old aiki debates. So please let's not go there again, ok? I just want to clarify what I believe, as a Daito-ryu practitioner are popular misconceptions or myths about aikijujutsu.

IMHO, the idea that Yoshinkan Aikido = aikijujutsu is incorrect. While Yoshinkan Aikido does reflect the more martial, prewar "Aikibudo" of Ueshiba sensei, both resemble (Daito-ryu) jujutsu much more than they do aikijujutsu. In Daito-ryu there is a very important distinction between the two.

Aikijujutsu is not hard style, throw him into a brick wall, combat aikido. Nor is aikijujutsu defined by painful joint locks and breaks or atemi. Aikijujutsu is soft, very soft and subtle in it's application.

Sorry for the digression here, but despite the title of the book, the techniques described in "Samurai Aikijutsu" are aikido techniques and should not be confused with aikijujutsu techniques. As for Obata sensei's version of yama arashi? My seniors in Japan didn't think so, but then again who knows if anyone knows for sure?

Brently Keen

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Keen,

Much to your surprise, I'm not going to flame the hell out of you! :)

You actually brought up some valid points regarding this book, and I've discussed Daito ryu history and recent historical developments with Obata Sensei since the publication of this book years ago. He agrees with alot of what is believed today - even with points that contradict the book. That is because the book was written and later translated using whatever information had been accumulated and obtained up until that period in time.

I believe the publisher chose the title of the book, and was primarily responsible for translating the text. Anyone that has tried to record an album, produce a movie, or write a book knows how frustrating it can be for the writer/creator to compromise with the "money man" over important points - especially when it is in a foreign language they are not fluent in. I don't mean to critisize this particular publisher, but Obata Sensei has since opted to produce materials independantly so that he may be in full control of the finished product.

As far as the technical content, I don't know that many Aikidoka would agree that they are "Aikido" techniques! Some are kumiuchi waza (battlefield techniques) and others are controls or throws of various types. Some of our Aikibujutsu "curriculum" actually include strategy and tactics.

Shioda Kancho, as I'm sure your aware, originally was taught "Aikibudo" by Ueshiba Sensei, and was issued at least one menjo or makimono (I forget which) that is titled Aikibudo which is said to be identical to the Hiden Mokuroku of Daito ryu. There is also a recent reprint of a book (I'm sure you've seen) that was originally titled "Aikijujutsu Ogi" in 1933, and is now called "Budo training in Aikido". It contains 166 waza, and if I remember correcty, is also supposed to be considered to be pretty straight Daito ryu. You probably have this book and would be in a better position to comment on this point.

Obata Sensei has told me that the uchi-deshi (he was one for approx 7 years) of the dojo were often taught alot of the older techniques since uchi-deshi were considered serious students and were there all the time.

As a side note, I've also noticed that the Yoshinkan tends to perform techniques in a very similar way as Kondo Sensei's mainline branch - though mostly different techniques - interestingly enough.

But anyway, our group does not claim to be Daito ryu, and the book likewise does not claim to teach Daito ryu techniques specifically. Obata Sensei does not have rank (to the best of my knowledge) in any Daito ryu branch. Our group is a research organization, and as we've discovered recently, Daito ryu has a unique definition of "aiki" that is not shared by Obata Sensei and many others. Not that Daito ryu's usage should be considered wrong, just that Daito ryu has their own semi-clear definition of aiki that does not match other arts.

I've never sat down and asked the origin of all the techniques in our system, though sometimes it does come up during training. I'm also not entirely sure who else and where else Obata Sensei may have picked up techniques, since he does not like to include "credentials" from people or groups that he was not directly a member of or ranked in.

Our group is more concerned with the preservation/application side of the "research" than we are the documenting historically the origins of techniques side. One look at the state of Aikido today will tell you why, and it would be far to messy an endeavour to try to document technical origins of waza anyway. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

However, the majority of what we study is "hard Aikido", and we do tend to use Yoshinkan's kihon waza as a foundation. The advanced levels after shodan start to branch more deeply into Aikibujutsu type waza.

You might find it interesting that (in response to your seeming interpretation of our waza), in spite of Obata Sensei's large size, he is amazingly graceful in his application of techniques. Very powerful at times, but not through the use of muscle. He also has an "Aikiage" paired set that he has taught in the past, and can lock you up (on your toes) from hand grabs effortlessly. A little different
than say some of the Daito ryu groups, but effective and interesing.

Anyway, your entitled to your opinion and alot of it is not far off the mark, IMO.

BTW, I have no idea where the version of Yama Arashi comes from. I've asked him once, but I forget exactly what he said. :(

Everybody seems to have their own idea...

Regards,


[Edited by Nathan Scott on 07-11-2000 at 09:05 PM]

[Brently Keen]

Nathan,

Please feel free to call me Brently. I'm not surprised at all, I wouldn't have expected you to flame the hell out of me. I was anticipating that some others might try to rehash the old debates as soon as I said something about Daito-ryu aiki being different than aikido though.

I'm quite aware that "Samurai Aikijutsu" was published before very much was known about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. I think that Obata sensei deserves a lot of credit and respect for what he has accomplished in the martial arts. It doesn't surprise me either that Obata sensei concurs with more recent discoveries regarding Daito-ryu history. His translation of Yamamoto Kansuke's "Heiho Okugisho" is a favorite of mine that I like to quote often.

As far as I'm concerned though, the jury is still out on "oshikiuchi". I do not agree with the conclusions that some folks are drawing recently. Let's just say that I think there's more speculation going on than research.

Please remember that Daito-ryu as a tradition or system includes both jujutsu and aiki (or aikijujutsu), they are very different. Traditionally, when one begins to study the system of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu they are only taught jujutsu in the beginning. The Shoden level in Daito-ryu is jujutsu. The Daito-ryu hiden mokuroku (also sometimes called the shoden mokuroku) is made up of 118 "jujutsu" techniques.

Much of the confusion comes from the fact that Sokaku made a change in the name and started referring to his art as a whole as "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu". At that point the mokuroku's he issued reflected this change, and "aiki" was added to the description of the art. However the content of the hiden mokuroku (118 jujutsu techniques) did not change. Shioda sensei and several other students of Ueshiba received this same mokuroku. People naturally mislabeled the jujutsu techniques as aikijujutsu techniques.

As for the book "Aikijujutsu Ogi" I believe the title was a result of this same misunderstanding (either that or a marketing ploy), because the vast majority of the techniques come straight from the Daito-ryu "jujutsu" curriculum, not the "aiki no jutsu" curriculum.

Likewise, I believe that Tokimune sensei and/or Kondo sensei have at different times both used the terms Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo perhaps interchangeably. When we watch Kondo sensei give a demonstration of the art of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu he usually (until very recently) only demonstrated techniques from the Ikkajo series, the first basic jujutsu techniques in the hiden mokuroku. The vast majority of all the techniques Kondo sensei has demonstrated on publically available video tapes are all jujutsu techniques. Therefore any resemblance we see between Yoshinkan Aikido and Kondo sensei's demonstrations are primarily a resemblance to the "jujutsu" techniques of Daito-ryu, not the "aiki" techniques.

As you said, in Daito-ryu we have our own definition of aiki, and the distinctions between it and jujutsu are both clear and important. I have not seen or felt Obata sensei's "aikiage" technique so I cannot comment on that, but I will say that although Aikido's "kokyu-ho" and Kashima Shinryu's "reiki no ho" both resemble Daito-ryu's "aikiage" they are in fact quite different.

It would be interesting to hear Obata sensei's thoughts on the yama arashi technique and/or any recollections he might have of Shioda sensei's feelings about it.

Regards,

Brently Keen

[Nathan Scott]

Brently-san,

I agree with your post.

Personally, I think Daito ryu Aikijujutsu (Aikibudo) should simply be called Daito ryu, since it is technically not all "Aikijujutsu". But perhaps Takeda Sensei felt that once you understand aiki, that aiki will be used in all your techniques to varying degrees, and perhaps that the Aikijujutsu is the highest form of the Daito ryu.

I agree with your analysis of Aikijujutsu Ogi, the Hiden Mokuroku and Kondo Sensei's enbu's. I would also be the first to state that there is nothing in what Obata Sensei teaches in our style that the Daito ryu exponents would call "aiki" (by their definition). However, Aikidoka and Judoka would be among those quick to label many of the techniques as such.

Some koryu seem to use aiki when referring to the idea of harmonizing with the opponents movements, spirit, kiai, strength, speed, distance and/or breath etc. Application of this type of principle is considered high level when compared to techniques performed simply using combat tactics and strategy to gain an advantage. Without re-opening this debate again, I would submit that this is similar to how many other groups use the term as well. So in our case, aiki may be understood (in a different context) while performing a variety of techniques.

It would seem that Shioda Kancho was likely taught Jujutsu more than "aiki" from Ueshiba Sensei, but I've heard that Shioda Sensei had a continued interest in aiki and in Daito ryu even after opening the Yoshinkan.

Obata Sensei's aikiage is paired practice, as I mentioned, and involves 5 major movements for locking or manipulating the opponent's shoulder (into the center) through wrist grabs. There are also a variety of other "te-kagami" type joint locks. But I wouldn't say they feel "exactly" like Daito ryu. Most of our techniques are not conducted in the same context either.

For those not familiar, our organization is named "Aikido and Aikibujutsu Tanren Kenkyukai", or, Aiki Buken for short, which defines as a research group for the serious study of techniques ranging from the older Aikibujutsu to the modern variations of Aikido. The goal is to promote and preserve waza as integrated into our curriculum. However, the waza is necessarily chosen in such a way as to match the principles of movement already established in our style, to retain coherency.

Anyway, it's all pretty interesting. My time with Sensei is usually pretty.... focused, but if I perceive an opportunity to ask him about Yama arashi again, I'll see what I can find out.

Regards,


[Edited by Nathan Scott on 07-12-2000 at 12:41 PM]

[Brently Keen]

Nathan,

Well put, I pretty much agree with your whole summary. Especially about Sokaku Takeda's view that aiki was the essence or core of Daito-ryu, and that any Daito-ryu techniques performed at the highest level would likely include some aiki or elements of aiki.

You are correct that Shioda sensei had an ongoing interest in Daito-ryu and aiki. However, I believe some of the stories floating around on another BB are incorrect, and/or misleading. Out of respect for the parties involved, I'd rather not discuss the details of what I know in public though.

I think this has been a profitable discussion. :)

Regards,

Brently Keen

[Nathan Scott]

Although this is one of the oldest threads remaining on this forum, I thought it would be an appropriate place to document information on Saigo Shiro in particular, and secondarily on the legendary and controversial technique "yama-arashi".

The following excerpts are found on the Kodokan Judo english version web page, and were translated from Volume 1 (Te-waza) of the Japanese language 3-volume book set "Kodokan Judo - NAGE WAZA", written by Daigo Toshiro, 9th Dan Kodokan Judo. These books were published by Hon-no-Tomo-Sha in 1999 under the supervision of the Kodokan, and are sold on the Kodokan webpage (when available). Unfortunately, I'm not sure what the author used for reference material for this section, but it sounds pretty accurate all the same:

(Type 3) Shiro Saigo's (6th dan) Yamaarashi

"The technique of Yamaarashi can be found as Yamaotoshi in Sekiguchi-ryu (which is the old style of Jujitsu). Shiro Saigo studied and developed this old technique to use in Judo practice by himself and became very famous in the Judo world. The people said: 'There is no Yamaarashi before Saigo and after Saigo.' To understand the technique of Yamaarashi, it is important to know the technique of Saigo. In the book, Sugata Sanshiro, written by Tsuneo Tomita, published by Shunpo-do in 1950, the author describes Saigo's Yamaarashi. As you know, the author's father (Tsunejiro Tomita, 8th dan) was the first Judo student of Jigoro Kano and was known as one of the famous four. He left many articles about development of Judo techniques. The author of this book uses his fathers articles as follows:

'When Kodokan Judo fought against many other old Jujitsu schools, Shiro Saigo successfully used his unique Yamaarashi to defeat others and left many outstanding winning records. But, nowadays, nobody tries this unique technique and many black belts do not know the technique of Yamaarashi. Therefore, I explain the technique of Yamaarashi on behalf of the late Saigo. Before I explain this technique, I would like to tell you about Saigo's personality. He was born in Aizu, Japan. When he was a lad, he wanted to be an army general. He was a very small man. But, he had a giant heart and was a brave man. The technique of Yamaarashi is not depended upon powerful arms or body. It depends upon a strong mind, such as, the spirit of go for broke. According to the dynamics, the logic of Yamaarashi is based on the breaking of the opponent's balance within a short distance and attacking with full speed. It is the most dynamic and skillful of all other techniques. If we hold each other in right handed position (Saigo was left handed), Tori grabs Uke's right collar deeply with the right hand and grip Uke's right sleeve with the left hand to take an extremely right handed position. Tori moves his body up and down to pressure Uke backward. In response to Tori's controlling movement, Uke tries to push forward to regain his position. When Uke tries to come forward, Tori picks up Uke's body on his shoulder in full speed and sweeps Uke's right ankle like a Haraigoshi (a gust of wind). It can be considered a combination technique of Haraigoshi and Seoinage (the thumb of the hand grabbing the collar can be inside or outside of the collar). According to my memory, Saigo used both ways. This technique seems easy enough for anyone. However, in reality, it is a very difficult technique. Why did Saigo use this technique as his favorite technique? Saigo had two distinctive physical characteristics. First of all, he was a very short person. Therefore, he did not need to lower his hip to pick up an opponent who was pushing back. He saved time because he did not need to lower his body and did not need to worry about being squashed down. Another characteristic was that his toes were different from others. All the toes were pointed downward like a rake. Therefore, when he sweeps his legs like Haraigoshi against the opponent's ankle, he never missed the aimed spot. His toes always stuck to his opponent's leg like an octopus. Furthermore, when he executes his throwing techniques, he always aimed for only one shot and he never failed to throw the opponent. This technique is more effective for a short person rather than a tall person.'

According to the record, the height of Saigo was 153 cm and weight was 53 kg.

Shiro Saigo vs Taro Terushima

"In the exhibition matches between Kodokan Judo and all other Jujitsu School, sponsored by Tokyo Police Academy, Shiro Saigo's outstanding performance with Yamaarashi was spot lighted and greatly helped Kodokan Judo development. In the book (Yamaarashi and Saigo, published by Kodokan Bunka Kaikan, June 1931), author Tsunejiro Tomita described Saigo's match as follows:

'I would like to tell you and describe Saigo's Yamaarashi through out the matches which were fought against other schools. I think this is the best way to explainYamaarashi. On May 5, 1885, a match was held at Marunouchi Police Academy. Shiro fought against Taro Terushima, professor of Yoshinryu School (Hikokuro Totsuka's most favorite student). At this time, Terushima was well known in the Jujitsu world and, also, a famous fighter. On the other hand, Saigo was a young but unknown fighter from Kano Dojo. At that time, Kano Dojo, itself, was not recognized by the Jujitsu world. Saigo, usually fought in the left natural posture. After taking a bow to each other, Saigo posed in the left natural posture. Terushima was over confidence because Saigo was so small. Terushima raised and waved both hands in weird angles. Then, tried to grab Saigo in one snatch. But, Saigo had a strategy. Therefore, he did not give Terushima a chance to grab him. Terushima was too eager to grab Saigo's left sleeve. He tried one step forward in full speed. At this moment, Saigo turned his body to the right and pulled the middle of Terushima's left sleeve strongly. At the same time, Saigo's left hand grabbed Terushima's high left collar deeply like lightning (thumb under the collar). This was Saigo's most favorite and strategic grabbing technique. By picking up his left hand, Saigo tried to pull and push the opponent all around the contest area. Terushima was a good fighter, also. When Saigo tried to pick up Terushima, he went behind Saigo to hold his body to execute Uranage and Ogoshi. But, both failed. Saigo stood straight and pushed his left arm up very hard while still grabbing Terushima's left sleeve. When Terushima pushed back, Saigo picked up Terushima's body deeply by attaching his hip close underneath Terushima's abdomen like a torpedo. Then, he swept opponent's left leg as though trying to break it. Terushima flew over Saigo's head and lay on the mat like an honorable dead soldier. In this way, mountain storm (Yamaarashi) swept through this match.'

Shiro Saigo, 6th Dan, is in the Kodokan Hall of Fame for his great achievement.

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Following is a valuable reference to Saigo Shiro that was published in the "Kodokan New Japanese-English Dictionary of Judo", Kodokan Judo Institute, 2000:

"Saigo Shiro (1866-1922) - Third son of Shida Sadajiro, a samurai of the Aizu Domain, born in 1866 in Aizu Wakamatsu. In 1882 he moved to Tokyo and enrolled in the Kodokan. In 1884 he was adopted into the family of Saigo Tanomo, a former elder councillor of the Aizu Domain and took the name Hoshina Shiro [after his Tanomo, who had changed his name to Hoshina Chikanori]. In 1888 he reverted to the surname Saigo in order to resurrect the Saigo family line, which had died out with the passing of Saigo Tanomo. Exceptionally talented a martial artist, he was particularly well known for his powerful yama arashi ("mountain storm") technique. He earned the rank of shodan in judo in August 1883, nidan in September of the same year, jumped to yodan in August 1885, and godan in January 1889. However, he later left the Kodokan organization in May 1890 while Jigoro Kano was away travelling. He is also known to have been the model for the main character in Tomita Tsuneo's 1942 novel 'Sugata Sanshiro'. He died in Onomichi in Hiroshima prefecture in December 1922."

Saigo Shiro was also considered to be one of the "Four Heavenly Kings/Guardians" (Shitenno) of Judo, along with Yamashita Yoshitsugu, Yokoyama Sakujiro and Tomita Tsunejiro.

See these links as well for valuable photos and references:

Judo Greats - Past and Present (http://www.judoinfo.com/greats.htm)

Shiro Saigo (http://www.judoinfo.com/saigo.htm)

Judo's Decisive Battle (http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.html)

History of JuJitsu, Part III: Bujutsu - The Meiji Period Police Competitions (http://www.usjjf.org/articles/JuJitsuP3.htm)

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

From Donn Draeger's "Classical Bujutsu and Budo", pg 139-140:

In 1877 Saigo Tanomo [Chikanori] sponsored Shida Shiro (b. 1868) and took him to Aizu to teach him oshikiuchi. After three years of arduous training, Shida moved to Tokyo to further his education. While studying at the Seijo Gakko, a training school for army personnel, Shida enrolled in the Inoue Dojo of the Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu in 1881. Two years later he caught the eye of Kano Jigoro, who was also a disciple of the Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu ... Shida's skill in hand-to-hand encounters convinced Kano that it would be a good idea to offer Shida an assistant instructorship at the Kodokan; and Shida accepted. Upon marrying Saigo Tanomo [Chikanori's] daughter in 1884, Shida became an adopted son of the Saigo family and therewith changed his name to Saigo Shiro ... Using the technique of yama-arashi (mountain storm), which is based on the principles and techniques of oshikiuchi, Saigo decisively defeated all comers and was instrumental in making both Kano and his Kodokan Judo famous.

Kano appointed Saigo Shiro to be director of the Kodokan while he was in Europe in 1888. This responsibility brought with it an increase in Saigo's remorse over conflicting loyalties. He owed much to his original sponsor and teacher, Saigo Tanomo [Chikanori], and to Kano, who had placed great trust in him. To resolve his problem, Saigo Shiro left Tokyo for Nagasaki in 1891 and set about making his own life in a way that would be unfettered by debts of loyalty to either Saigo or Kano. He abandoned the study of both oshikiuchi and judo. By 1899 he had beocme the vice-president of the Hinoda Newspaper Company in Kyushu, and for the next twenty years, until his death, he devoted himself entirely to the study of kyujutsu (the art of the bow), finally attaining the rank of hanshi (master teacher).

Saigo Shiro's precipitious departure made the elder Saigo look for another worthy disciple whom he could entrust with the complete teachings of oshikiuchi. While serving as a priest at the [Ryozen] Shrine, the elder Saigo selected Sokaku [Takeda] for this honor and began teaching him the once exclusive art of the Aizu warriors in 1898. Sokaku's zest for martial learning, coupled with his skill in classical swordsmanship, led him to rapid mastery of oshikiuchi. In the same year in which he began to study under Saigo, Sokaku was authorized to instruct people selected from th former samurai class in Aizu. Shortly before Saigo died, he encouraged Sokaku to spread the spirit and techniques of oshikiuchi on a wider basis. In compliance with his master's wish, Sokaku gradually modified the original oshikiuchi teachings. In response to an official request he traveled to Hokkaido in 1908 to instruct police units in hand-to-hand combat.

Sokaku regarded oshikiuchi in its modified form as jujutsu. To lend prestige to his teachings he appended the name Daito-ryu to them. Daito-ryu jujutsu, under Sokaku's leadership, remained a conservative but effective system of self-defense.

[judasith]

I recently wrote a 6-pages article on an italian Martial Arts newspaper regarding the famous Judo/Jujutsu tournament and Yama Arashi.

I do not really believe that Shiro Saigo knew anything in Daito-ryu more than the very first techniques. So I guess the best explanation is the simplest, Yama Arashi was a modified version of the one by the same name in Kodokan Judo.

To spice the article a little, we also showed a different theory, saying maybe Yama Arashi was Daito-ryu's Kuruma Daoshi, based on ease of application and the written description, which is a perfect fit.

But I do not believe Kano cheated in the tournament, they won because the most dangerous techniques were forbidden and the judo guys were very good on applying with great force and efficiency less-than-lethal techniques and nage. It was a tournament with different purposes than "real fight", I don't know if they met each other on the streets at night which of the two system would have won.

[Raff]

Much to my surprise dear Giacome, I must say that for once I disagree with your theory. First of all and before carrying it on, could you please send me your article in subject, I’m very interested.

To start with, Jigoro Kano is very often called Professor Kano, very rarely Sensei, Shihan and/or Kancho, how come the founder of the most famous Japanese martial art is called Professor rather than Sensei?

Pr Kano was not a fighter or a martial phenomenon, he certainly was a very dedicated student truly devoted to the preservation of the various Ryu-ha but as far as I know, he was never famous for defeating any worthy opponent. Even though Pr Kano is the founder of Kodokan Judo his skills are not nearly to be compared to those of Ueshiba, Sokaku Takeda or Mas Oyama.

If we look very carefully at Kano’s martial background, we find out that he had studied Tenjin Shiny’o Ryû and Kito-Ryû for a very short period of time, his Senseis being actually quite old (actually at least two of them soon passed away forcing the young Jigoro Kano to seek out a new teacher), in reality, Kano hardly studied for 4 years before founding the Kodokan, and, there is another aspect often underrated, the Dojo Kano trained in had indeed very few students, we can easily say that Koryu at that time were simply passing out.

The rest is history, the first student to sign the enrollement book was one of the famous Shitenno: Tsunejiro Tomita whose son is the author of Sugata Sanshiro, I think that Saigo was the 8th or 9th student to join the Kodokan, it is worth mentioning that Kano had previously met Saigo at the Tenjin Shiny’o Ryû Dojo.

It is an indisputable fact that Saigo was already a skilled martial artist far superior to Kano when he entered the Kodokan, he was the first one to defeat and convert!!! The first challengers who stepped by the Kodokan, one of those who were defeated by Saigo is nobody less that Sakujiro Yokoyama an exponent of another Ryû (I can’t remember the name at the moment) know as the Demon, I guess that somebody bearing such a nickname must have been a feared fighter, Yokoyama was also Kyuzo Mifune Teacher. After losing to Saigo, Yokoyama joined the Kodokan becoming one of the Shitenno.

So, I guess that if Kano did not cheat, he was at least clever enough to get the best fighters of the time to defend the Kodokan. It certainly did help a lot even if it should not downplay Kano’s pedagogy and training methods.

I would like to add a last word about the famous Police Department Tournament, the Koryu were fading, the Pax Tokugawa was certainly bearing a great responsibility in that loss of both combative spirit and skills. The Kodokan won because they were far better prepared than the exponent of the other schools and also because the Koryu believed that they would easily despatch the Kodokan players.

Some scholars are now expressing a brand new theory about Yama Arashi: Some argue that it could be a description of Saigo’s fighting style, I tend to support that theory.

[judasith]

Hi Raff!

Long time no see...

You're probably right, and we'll never know the truth in any case.

I'll send you a pdf of my article by email, as soon as I scan it...

Hope to see you this summer!

Giacomo

[Raff]

Thanks Giacomo, I also hope to come but kids are taking time away from me.

Ciao

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

For years I've been coming across a quote from Saigo-ha groups regarding Saigo Shiro and Takeda Sokaku both training in Oshikiuchi, and Saigo Shiro passing down "Saigo-ha" through a non-Takeda line: "What I do now I learned from Hoshina-san. One other person studied from Hoshina-san, but he is already dead." Many assume the dead person must have been Saigo Shiro, so this quote is often seen as supportive to the Saigo-ha's claim to legitimacy.

I finally found out where this quote comes from, and in the process, found an interesting contradiction.

First some known background. In 1875 (16/17 yrs old), Sokaku was summoned back to Aizu by his father to assume a hereditary position as a Shinto priest at the Tsutsukowake shrine under clan elder Saigo Tanomo (aka: Hoshina Chikanori - 1830-1903). According to the known history, this is the first period in which Sokaku may have trained in Oshikiuchi with Hoshina. In 1877 Sokaku opts to leave for Kyushu.

Also in 1877 (stated as 1884 according by the Kodokan. More than likely a mistake), Hoshina Chikanori sponsored Shide Shiro (later Saigo Shiro) and took him to Aizu, supposedly to teach him Oshikiuchi. In 1881 (15 yrs old), Shiro moved from Aizu to Tokyo, where he ended up joining a Tenjin shin’yo-ryu dojo, and a year later, Kodokan Judo. Shiro quit the Kodokan in 1890 and seems to have quietly studied kyudo from then until his death.

In 1898, Sokaku returns to Aizu again, and Hoshina Chikanori (Tanomo Saigo) is said to have taught and entrusted Sokaku (now 39/40 yrs old) with the complete teachings of the Aizu-han Oshikiuchi (Court Self-Defense Art) at the Ryozen shrine. Hoshina inscribes in Sokaku's enrollment book on May 12th a poem advising him to focus on teaching jujutsu, as the time of the sword was now over. During an unknown (early) time period, Sokaku is known to have signed his enrollment books as an “Aizu Hanshi” and a “Monjin (disciple) of Hoshina Chikanori”. So it is clear that Sokaku considered himself a student of Hoshina Chikanori in a martial context.

I came across the aforementioned statement from Sokaku I posted in the beginning of this post in a 1978 Japanese language book which includes a section on Daito-ryu, of which was compiled primarily from interviews with Sagawa Yukiyoshi Sensei. In the Daito-ryu section is a section that translates as:

At this time, a friend from the same hometown as Sokaku, named "Itabashi Rinzo", visited Sokaku. Itabashi was watching Sokaku, and after Sokaku finished teaching jujutsu to his student (monjin), Itabashi said to him "That is a different type of jujutsu than what you were doing in your youth." Sokaku replied, "What I do now I learned from Hoshina-san. One other person studied from Hoshina-san, but he is already dead."

I found a shorter version of this episode in another Japanese language book about the life of Sagawa Yukiyoshi specifically. I translate it as:

When I was fifteen years old (ca. 1916), Takeda Sensei stayed with us at our family’s house. During that time, Mr. Itabashi Rinzo, who was from the same countryside as Takeda Sensei, came to visit him. At the time of the visit, only Mr. Itabashi, Takeda Sensei, and myself were present. At one point Takeda Sensei invited Mr. Itabashi to stand up, and then threw him using various aiki techniques applied from two wrist grabs (ryote no aiki 両手の合気 ). Afterwards, Mr. Itabashi said, “This is different from the jujutsu (yawara 柔 ) you were practicing before.”

So it would seem that this episode happened ca. 1916, and that the quote originally comes from Sagawa Yukiyoshi Sensei, which makes since because he was the only witness to this episode. This would have been 18 years after Sokaku's second known period training with Hoshina Chikanori, which would explain why his technique changed.

However, the contradiction I found was this: Sokaku stated in 1916 that the only other student of Hoshina Chikanori's was already dead, BUT Saigo Shiro (who was 9 years younger than Sokaku) didn't die until December of 1922! The earlier reference I found for this quote (which the Saigo-ha people have been using) did not indicate what time period the episode happened. I only found a reference to a time period in the later quote, which was published in 1995. Oops.

But is seems to me there are still a few possibilities.

1) After 1890, it sounds as though Saigo Shiro kept a low public profile, at least in regards to martial arts. It's possible Sokaku had either heard Shiro had died, or believed he must be dead by then based on the lack of news circulating about him in the judo/jujutsu fields.

2) It was in fact someone else that Hoshina Chikanori trained, not Saigo Shiro.

One thing that is compelling about the possible misunderstanding Sokaku may have had about Shiro's pre-mature death. All the dates from both the Takeda side and Saigo side allow for the possibility that both trained with Hoshina:

Hoshina wants to pass the art to an appropriate heir. He first meets Sokaku, who is 16/17 years old, and the grandson of his own teacher, Takeda Soemon. But Sokaku leaves 3 years later to pursue other martial arts in 1877. Then possibly in the same year, Hoshina decides to adopt a young boy to train in the art instead (Shide Shiro). In 1881 though, Shiro also leaves to live in Tokyo (at 15 years old). Sokaku now returns while near his instructional prime, being an experienced martial artist now, about 8 years after Shiro quits the Kodokan and disappears from public fame. So now Hoshina, 7 years before his own death, pushes the whole art on to Sokaku seeing it as his last chance to pass the art on. The dates and preceding scenario are possible, but the significant contradiction between Sokaku's quote and when Saigo Shiro actually died is a big problem in my eyes.

Regards,

[Scott Harrington]

One of the difficulties of Daito-ryu is 1) the many branches from Takeda Sokaku and 2) the small portal of information from Japan with closed sources or translation of material.

Sometimes in a discussion, I tend to see ‘data mining’ from only a small vein of Stanley Pranin, those few that have crossed the pond, or others like Chris Li who translate material and reprint / comment. Ad nauseum repeating (though we forget there are always new readers) can get to you. Broadening the source base is certain to bring fresh ideas and undiscovered material.

One of the most common stories we hear about is the yama arashi technique of Saigo Shiro, supposedly used to great effect in defense of Kano’s newborn Kodokan Judo, struggling to gain respect over the koryu grappling arts. And over time, lost to judo, versions abounding from Mifune to Obata, it is the bogie monster waza to scare the white belts after a hard practice and a round of drinks

A new source is the recent publication by Kogen Sugasawa of a three book series on Daito-ryu. His lineage is Sokaku Takeda – Takuma Hisa – Kozui Tsuruyama – to Sugasawa. This is available from www.budovideos.com.

With a short one page explanation (Please, I need a translation!!!!) and five photographs, this version is eye-opening in several regards. And especially because of it’s comparison with the myths.

1. It begins from a ‘judo’ like grab on the sleeve.
2. It involves a leg sweep (which Saigo Shiro supposedly used.)
3. It is extremely difficult to take ukemi from (I’ve tried – it hurts!)

All these matters are in the myth, the yama arashi cutting down the jiu jitsu with great effect.

With the addition of some principles of Daito-ryu I’ve been told from several sources, and also a nearly throwaway line from the “Daito-ryu Aikibudo” by Antonino Certa, it is a very dangerous and effective technique.

So, a new source shows a different version, comes from the Daito-ryu lineage, and meets many of the requirements from commentators. Give it a try, but be warned – the ukemi is rough!!!! Let me throw you first.

Scott Harrington
co-author of “Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido”

[George Kohler]

The dates and preceding scenario are possible, but the significant contradiction between Sokaku's quote and when Saigo Shiro actually died is a big problem in my eyes.

After reading your post I was reminded how sometimes people could make assumtions/mistakes about others passing away, including their own family members.

For example:

When I first met my wife (GF at the time) in Savannah, GA around 1990 my wife mentioned how my Copenhagen snuff reminded her of her Grandfather, since that is what he use to use. I asked her where he was and she told me that he died sometime ago.

Fast forward to 1997, when I was doing some genealogy work and I had a social security disk that listed the death records of almost everyone before 1996. When I did a search on him the CD said that he died in 1994. Of course I questioned her again and she didn't remember which year he died, but she said that it was before she met me in 1990. So I questioned her Mother and she stated that the family moved him to a different "old folks" home just before 1990 because he couldn't move around anymore (whatever that means). She also stated that he died when we moved to Texas in 1994, so my wife didn't hear about it.

I'm not saying that that what happened with Takeda Sokaku, I just wanted to give a different perspective on all this.

[Samurai Jack]

It is and will be a Never Ending Story.

[Samurai Jack]

This is why. Those of us in the martial-arts for sometime understand the concern. There are those who will procure any tatter, or slim obscurity of history to be fabricated it into justification, that is difficult to argue, into some form of credibility. The capitalizing on thin obscure oral information that is almost impossible to verify, is repugnant. Yet, for many styles that was the case, a repeated camp fire story passed on, or a misunderstood earshot of a conversation placed out of context overtime becomes the "stuff" that ignited some styles into acceptance (by default) into the ranks of the elite martial arts. Old news...right?

The discerning mind will see the concern put forth by Nathan as valid, thus suspending judgment. Those with imbued constitutions of opposition will continue to pursue their claims in zeal.

None of what I said will have bearing on what can’t be reconstructed concerning Shiro and Takeda, despites any more bone fragments found. Therefore, this leaves a Never Ending Story to be debated endlessness, or until someone says “uncle.”

My prediction is related to the same properties as water. Overtime, there will be a wearing down. In the same way water reduces a rock to a smooth stone to a pebble, to a grain of sand. As I see it now, the rock’s rough edges are becoming smooth.

What ever the outcome, it will always be a Never Ending Story.

[Samurai Jack]

Here is a major problem I see is with this Daito ryu thing, the over-exposure, i.e. the marketing of tapes, and seminars. Why? It is the dissemination of selected information that is protean. The reason for this, I gather, is one of a myopia perspective of the disseminator. The result is the cry, "Beati possidentes!" heard by the middling arts to graft and assimilate these disseminated techniques for their purpose constructing their Golden Calf of lineage. Lineage of course equates the Holy Grail of legitimacy. That is if option A fails. That would be, to sway the masses your art came from God's (or gods) kit and caboodle.

How do you fight that? How do you fight your self inflicted contusion from the result of a self subscribed myopia, ego, politics, etc, because of a modern daimyo-ish behavior? Like the old saying goes, you made your bed, now you have to sleep in it. The damage is done and it can't be reverse for Daito ryu. The road will be long and hard to purify the muddy waters. Yet for the middling arts (vagabonds) no matter what evidence is brought forth, it will not cease their solid piggy-backing for legitimacy on Daito ryu. The masses are easily swayed, and eager to subscribe to the instantaneous, and easily attainable accolade arts; willing fish to take the bait. Thus, the new connection that was will be between Shiro and Takeda.

My rant, I know this post has a bleak outlook and it isn't a set of posts that give the warm cozy academic feel to them which people can glean information and to be enlightened from. But, this is case is not unique to Daito ryu, Daito ryu is just one of the latest victims. Victim to a modern standard in martial arts due to the modern techno info age of recording devices and media and the techno dissemination of information to a mass audience has people seeing capitalistic opportunity. In the future the degrading of those arts who once held fast to a different standard and values for so many generations, will lose out to cheap, easy and accessible trinket arts in a display window. What art will be left in time that will truly be special, that one exotic archetypal art that held us in awe, that dripped with tradition, culture, and purity that so greatly inspired us toward the arts?

Now you can find that special art at Wally-mart, E-Bay or on MySpace, packaged for $35.99 that comes with an instructional DVD by the master himself, who will tell you all the secrets you need to be a master. It also includes a poster of six different colored belts you can hang on your wall including a real stone washed master Black Belt. But that is not all, you will also get an amplified deadly moves DVD with super-amped virtual weapons you can use anywhere. But that’s not all, you will also get a life size replica of a master certificate and color poster of lineage. Every one can be a cheap cardboard cut out jedi master. PIMP MY MARTIAL ARTS!

[Samurai Jack]

Correction: Thus, the connection that wasn't, will now exist between Shiro and Takeda.

[Flintstone]

BTW, I have no idea where the version of Yama Arashi comes from. I've asked him [Obata Sensei] once, but I forget exactly what he said. :(

Everybody seems to have their own idea...
Excuse me, Nathan, but is the following the version Obata Sensei is teaching?

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1999/yamaarashiqf8.gif

If it is, it is the very same that we call Yama Arashi in Nihon Taijutsu.

Thanks!

[TimothyKleinert]

I've seen a throw similar to Yama Arashi in Hakuho-ryu (formerly Hakuho-kai Daito-ryu), it's called Kuruma Daoshi.

The attack is Yokomen, let's say with the right hand (tori's left side). Tori raises his left hand to block, then steps slightly left & pulls uke off balance (to the left). Tori then places his back (right) foot behind uke's front leg, and presses down uke's attacking arm. Ideally, the momentum should be enough to cause uke to fall, but if needed, tori can kick back and sweep uke's leg.

Hakuho-ryu kata also utilizes various sleeve and collar grabs (for attacks).

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

I hope my post about the date confusion was not misunderstood. It was not my intention to claim a slam dunk against the Saigo-ha based on this comment. The quote adds more doubt to their claim, but there is also room for other explanations. My purpose for posting this information is to add more facts and perspective to the issues. Anyone waiting for conclusive proof of anything regarding such issues is in for a very long wait.

As far as the "other student who is dead now", a friend of mine brought up a very interesting (if not obvious) point. Sokatsu was Sokaku's elder brother, who was training to become a Shinto Priest. When Sokatsu died in 1876, Sokaku's father called him back to Aizu to train for priesthood in place of his elder brother. Sokaku trained with Hoshina (Saigo Tanomo) for a few weeks before leaving in an attempt to join Saigo Takamori's group in Kyushu. So in other words, the other student who trained oshikiuchi with Saigo may have been Sokaku's own brother, who did in fact pass away prior to the encounter with Itabashi in 1916. Another strong possibility to consider...

Excuse me, Nathan, but is the following the version Obata Sensei is teaching?

I've never heard of "Nihon Taijutsu", but yes, the version you pasted is one of two versions Obata Sensei taught. The only difference between the two versions is the setup. It's a very tight, strong throw, "yama arashi" or otherwise.

Regards,

[Flintstone]

I've never heard of "Nihon Taijutsu", but yes, the version you pasted is one of two versions Obata Sensei taught. The only difference between the two versions is the setup. It's a very tight, strong throw, "yama arashi" or otherwise.
Nihon Taijutsu is the name that Roland Hernaez gave to his training methodology based on Minoru Mochizuki's Yoseikan. I would say it is the jujutsu part of the Yoseikan, more than Aiki, what Hernaez Sensei used to create Nihon Taijutsu.

I feel curious that our Yama Arashi is the same as Obata Sensei's. Maybe there is a connection via Yoseikan?

[Nathan Scott]

I feel curious that our Yama Arashi is the same as Obata Sensei's. Maybe there is a connection via Yoseikan?

To my knowledge, Obata Sensei has never associated with anyone from Yoseikan. He has always stuck close to Yoshinkan. As you know, his version of Yama Arashi was published in the late 80's in both book and video formats. This is probably a more likely source of the similarity.

[Flintstone]

To my knowledge, Obata Sensei has never associated with anyone from Yoseikan. He has always stuck close to Yoshinkan. As you know, his version of Yama Arashi was published in the late 80's in both book and video formats. This is probably a more likely source of the similarity.
Only note that Nihon Taijutsu was officially recognized by Mochizuki Sensei in 1973. So if the similarity is not coming from Yoseikan, then either it's coming from before (ie. "Ueshiba Ha" Daito Ryu) of from after 1973... In either case, Obata Sensei is not the source for it, as you seem to imply.

[Nathan Scott]

If there is an identical, or even similar version of "Yama Arashi" that predates Obata Sensei's publication, I'd be very interested in learning more about it. My first question would be - when was the yama arashi technique incorporated into Nihon Taijutsu? Since it's inception, or at some point afterwards? I would assume that the technique was passed down from Mochizuki Sensei if it is in your art. Can you verify any of the above?

Regards,

[Flintstone]

If there is an identical, or even similar version of "Yama Arashi" that predates Obata Sensei's publication, I'd be very interested in learning more about it. My first question would be - when was the yama arashi technique incorporated into Nihon Taijutsu? Since it's inception, or at some point afterwards? I would assume that the technique was passed down from Mochizuki Sensei if it is in your art. Can you verify any of the above?
I will try to find that out. If the technique has been there from the begining then it must have been passed down (only?) to Yoshinkan and Yoseikan from Ueshiba Ha Daito Ryu.

I'll come back to you.

Thanks,

[Nathan Scott]

Exactly, which would put a whole new spin on where this technique came from. Obata Sensei stated this version of the technique was the result of his research, but that could mean anything. I don't think even he remembers all the details of the project anymore.

Regards,

[DCS]

I had this technique demonstrated to me by an aikido instructor who has been at some Alain Floquet (also a Mochizuki deshi) seminars.

[Nathan Scott]

From Takeda Tokimune's interview published in AJ's CWDRM, pg. 69:

"A man called Saigo Shiro was also one of Kano's students. Sokaku met Kano [Jigoro] through his acquaintance with Saigo. Saigo Shiro also played a leading role in making the Kodokan well-known. He was a natural son of Saigo Tanomo, born out of wedlock. Therefore, although Shiro was Tanomo's real son, he later adopted him to make it official"

Takeda clearly indicates in his interview his father Sokaku knew Saigo Shiro personally, and that he was the one to introduce him to Kano Jigoro. So at the very least, Saigo Shiro was "exposed" to Takeda Sokaku in some form. This acquaintance also makes me think that Sokaku probably would have known or been advised of Shiro's death, which means the "other student" of Saigo Tanomo Sokaku referred to was someone else (Sokaku's brother?).

It also allows for the possibility that Saigo Shiro may have picked up a few things from Sokaku. Since Sokaku was taught by Shiro's father, I doubt he would have had much reservation about showing him a few things (?).

Just more to consider,

[STORMCROW]

If there is an identical, or even similar version of "Yama Arashi" that predates Obata Sensei's publication, I'd be very interested in learning more about it. My first question would be - when was the yama arashi technique incorporated into Nihon Taijutsu? Since it's inception, or at some point afterwards? I would assume that the technique was passed down from Mochizuki Sensei if it is in your art. Can you verify any of the above?

Regards,

Going out on a limb here. I remember recently seeing a TSKR video on this site of an entry similar to that previous Yama arashi animation. I'd watch it again to verify but I am having trouble viewing video recently. The Sensei, I believe he was Risuke Otake Sensei, was demonstrating but didn't finish the throw....but it looked like it was there.

As I'm sure you know, Minoru Mochizuki Sensei was highly ranked in TSKSR (among other arts) and was a friend and contemporary of Sugino Sensei.

[Flintstone]

I remember recently seeing a TSKR video on this site of an entry similar to that previous Yama arashi animation. I'd watch it again to verify but I am having trouble viewing video recently. The Sensei demonstrating didn't finish the throw....but it looked like it was there.
What video could it be? Can you paste a link here? Thanks!

[STORMCROW]

What video could it be? Can you paste a link here? Thanks!

I believe it is one of these google videos. Sorry I can't be more specific, as I mentioned earlier, I can't view these videos at this time.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41423

[Flintstone]

I believe it is one of these google videos. Sorry I can't be more specific, as I mentioned earlier, I can't view these videos at this time.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41423
Thank you for the link! But I cannot find a similar movement in those. I see, however, another movement we do in Nihon Taijutsu: the me uchi. And it's the very same technique. I always believed it came from the Shorinji Kempo that Roland Hernaez studied... Interesting. Thanks again.

[STORMCROW]

Thank you for the link! But I cannot find a similar movement in those. I see, however, another movement we do in Nihon Taijutsu: the me uchi. And it's the very same technique. I always believed it came from the Shorinji Kempo that Roland Hernaez studied... Interesting. Thanks again.

You're welcome Mr. Villanueva. Are you speaking of the part where Otake Sensei is demonstrating various techniques for his interviewer and then he says something about judo and walks through the entrance to ippon seionage? The moment directly after? That was the part I was talking about in my previous post. I'm not sure if it is the same as Yama arashi, but to my eye it looked similar to the animation previously posted. I saw it a few days ago and I'm no expert.

[STORMCROW]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=katori+shinto&emb=0&aq=1&oq=katori#q=katori%20shinto&emb=0&aq=1&oq=katori&start=130

This is what I saw starting at about 10:40. I guess he doesn't turn all the way, but to a beginner like myself, it looks similar.

[Flintstone]

This is what I saw starting at about 10:40. I guess he doesn't turn all the way, but to a beginner like myself, it looks similar.
Well, the entry is related... but different. In Yama Arashi you grip his right wrist with your left hand and his lapel with your right. Then turn into uke from the outside and you get a strangle hold plus elbow hiperextension. Then tori decides, throw over the shoulder a la seoi nage, or give uke a exit trough kind of tai otoshi.

Me uchi is the atemi to the eyes seen at 10:18, used as a distraction.

And, please, call me just Alex ;)

[Nathan Scott]

Following are a few more quotes of note:

"Mind Over Muscle - Writing From the Founder of Judo", by Kano Jigoro. Pg. 138:

"...Among my former pupils, one who particularly stood out was a young man named Shiro Saigo. He was among those who were thrown most often during training. Then he learned what to do after being thrown and how to dodge, so that in the end he had overcome his worries about being thrown. Most people attack their opponent out of fear of being thrown. Saigo gave no consideration to what would happen if he were thrown. Because he was on the offensive during his matches, his opponent was put on the defensive and his attack would weaken, and Saigo was able to employ waza as he liked."

"Mind Over Muscle", BTW, is a very good read for anyone involved in of the empty hand throwing arts.

"History of JuJitsu, Part III; Bujutsu and Meiji Period Police Competitions – Judo vs Jujitsu", by Laszlo Abel. The following quote is credited to Sumitomo Arima, author of possibly the first book on Kodokan titled “Arima Judo Kyohon” in 1904:

"[Saigo's] skills were such that, as soon as he was touched by his opponent, his opponent seemed to lose all control over his balance and strength, and would be thrown with ease. How he accomplished this was hard to explain, even if one saw it with one’s own eyes."

I somehow overlooked including the above quote in this thread until now, which is funny, because I find this description to be one of the most compelling statements supporting the possibility that Shiro was taught Daito-ryu methodology to some degree.

The above description happens to exemplify one of the most characteristic aspects of Daito-ryu, which is typically referred to as "breaking the opponent's balance upon contact" and "neutralizing/dissipating the opponent's power". While I realize that other arts incorporate such principles to varying degrees, the above description really paints a perfect picture of advanced Daito-ryu methods. Perhaps not proof of anything, but very telling all the same (IMO).

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

In another thread Ellis Amdur posted an off-topic comment regarding Saigo Shiro:

Aikijujutsu vs Aikido (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42130&page=10)

"there is no evidence that Saigo Shiro, a teenager had any "aikijutsu" training. In Kano Jigoro's recently published diary, he describes maintaining a dojo at one point, and mentions Saigo as one of the youths who he had watch the place and teach while he was unavailable. I'm writing this on the run, but essentially Kano says, "He wasn't very skilled at that time." Saigo was a product of being a) a really talented kid b) training among top level young men. Think of Nogueira, who was at the top of the world at 21 years old, beating Mario Sperry, then in his thirties, who was one of his mentors."

I disagree. I think this thread shows that there IS "evidence" to support instruction or at least exposure to Daito-ryu methodology. What there isn't is "proof".

1) DR oral tradition states that Sokaku's grandfather taught aiki to Saigo Tanomo because his son was not of a physical build or mindset to grasp such concepts. Saigo is also believed by DR to have received Edo-jo oshikiuchi palace self-defense methods. According to Sagawa, Sokaku was quoted as saying he was one of only two students of Saigo Tanomo. Saigo Shiro is one of only two likely candidates for being that second student. Shiro was adopted by Saigo Tanomo to continue his family line, so that would make him a strong candidate as someone who would have received a lot of attention from Tanomo. This is evidence based on DR oral tradition.

2) Independent history indicates that Saigo Shiro was closely associated with Saigo Tanomo at one time (as his adopted son), and that at later times, was associated on some level with Takeda Sokaku. Takeda Sokaku and Kano Jigoro were also commonly known to be fairly close friends. Sokaku was not known for being shy about his own methods, especially around Judo-ka, which he seemed to like to humiliating whenever given the chance. Since Shiro being the adopted son of his own former (claimed) teacher, Tanomo, it seems likely that Sokaku and Shiro would have had some degree of technical interaction (even if it was just Shiro getting thrown about or pinned in various way by Sokaku). This is evidence based on independent tradition.

3) Saigo Shiro is known in Judo history as having a distinctive method or skill that others in Judo did not. Judo-ka are quick to assure us that Yama Arashi as a technique is not lost, and is in fact nothing special, which only leads us to believe that there must be some type of principle(s) Saigo employed that made the technique so effective (aside from the uncharacteristicly small balance break). The description in my previous post by noted Judo-ka Sumitomo Arima happens to perfectly describe a typical method of entry in advanced methods of Daito-ryu (IMO). This is evidence based on (my opinion) of technical similarity to Daito-ryu that is not found in Judo (the "empty gi" thing associated with Mifune Kyuzo is, in my opinion, a different "sensation" and principle).

In Daito-ryu literature I've read comments to the affect that "real shugyo does not begin until one learns what aiki is", meaning that simply knowing the definition will not help much in developing related skill without the inclusion of extensive training. It is quite possible that Saigo Shiro was instructed in methods he was not able to apply yet by Tanomo, and/or, that he was instructed - or exposed - to such methods through Takeda Sokaku at a later date. Either way it would take years before he would be able to "master" the type of methodology as witnessed by Arima.

Personally, I'm not trying to prove that Saigo Shiro was or was not a proponent of Daito-ryu. Chances are, like many things, there will never be "proof". But I propose that there is enough evidence to warrant leaving the subject open to further speculation.

FWIW,

[Hissho]

C'mon, Nathan, conjecture isn't evidence. This doesn't even rise to "reasonable suspicion." Accepting it would also mean that Kano was a liar in this case.

[Tengu]

Interesting post
I wish I could really add some stuff and not make just a empty comment

The theory that Yama Arashi is more like the style of fighting of Saigo is not just unlikely. But untrue. Yama Arashi was a part of Kodokan Judo.
I asked my university Judo Sensei how would be a Yama Arashi.
He said he was not expert in doing it, but show me what it would be like. (and appeard to be a verry strong throw in my opinion, but I am mudansha)
So he gave me a copy of one very interesting book owritten by Conde Koma (Mitsuyo Maeda) in 1935 that included Yama Arashi in the list of Kodo-Kwan Judo (in that time portugese had no standartization of translation and stuff to japanese) as some other techniques that do not exist in kodokan Judo of today.
So even if Saigo was the only one to use it in competition (shiai or whatever) it do not means that they didn´t trained it. and reagardless the origin, it reached Kodokan Judo and become for a time one of It´s thecniques

I do not think Kano had just lied. This coud be just his interpretation of what he saw. If. But this is only my opinion.

[Nathan Scott]

Kit,

C'mon, Nathan, conjecture isn't evidence. This doesn't even rise to "reasonable suspicion." Accepting it would also mean that Kano was a liar in this case.

Well, from my point of view and experience, it isn't conjecture. It's not strong evidence, but it is evidence. The description of Saigo's technical approach is, to me, technical evidence that I believe is unusual and characteristic of Daito-ryu. Judo history includes common statements found in Daito-ryu's oral history. Sure, I'm drawing some conclusions based on what we know of the players, and the likely nature of their contacts, but I look at that as developing a reasonable doubt that there absolutely ISN'T any influence from Daito-ryu. All things considered, I actually find it surprising that there are so many people who can be so sure that Shiro couldn't have had any training or technical exposure to Daito-ryu methodology. I guess it's our friends from the Saigo-ha over-hyping the concept...

I'm not looking to put my arguments forward in a court of law in hopes of swaying others to one point of view or the other. Again, I concluded my last post by stating that I feel there is enough at least enough room to NOT close the door on the possibility that Shiro was influenced technically by Daito-ryu methodology. But if you still think my theory is all hooey then so be it - no offense taken!

BTW, I'm not trying to imply that Kano was lying about Shiro's ability. What I'm proposing is the possibility that he may have either been instructed by his step father Tanomo in Daito-ryu methodology but was not yet at an age or ability level to apply it (partially because it takes years to develop skill), or, that Shiro may have been exposed to the methodology at some later point by Takeda Sokaku since they had interactions.

**

As far as Yama Arashi goes, I've yet to see anyone of authority within Daito-ryu claim the technique as being borrowed from Daito-ryu. It does appear that this was either hinted to or alluded to at one time by someone in the art (or commonly misunderstood), but it is well known at this point that there are old Judo books that include Yama Arashi. I have at least one or two in my possession. What you may have misunderstood (Tengu) is that myself and some others believe Saigo may have been incorporating outside *principles* (possibly from Daito-ryu) into his Judo techniques, like Yama Arashi, that was not being taught within Judo. This would explain why Saigo could take a seemingly average technique and make it so extraordinary. Just speculation though.

Regards,

[Ellis Amdur]

Nathan - I won't go into exhaustive detail here, (I'm addressing some of these <elsewhere - hopefully pub. in the spring> but a few points:
1. Saigo was adopted AFTER he was in Tokyo. When did he come? Age 14 or was it 16?
2. There is little evidence that he had much contact with Tanomo - period. During his childhood, Aizu was at war and Tanomo was pretty busy. He was either an illegitimate son (who was NOT raised in the same home) or a distant relative, orphaned by war.
3. He had little contact with Tanomo once he was in Tokyo - except, we may conjecture, by letter.
4. There is a lack of evidence - total lack, actually - that Tanomo did any bujutsu training, other than assertions by Tokimune.
5. I've never - ever - heard of any claim that Saigo and Takeda were acquainted. Where did you get that? Furthermore, Saigo left Tokyo after only a few years, when to the south of Japan, and other than kyudo, all accounts known claim that he discontinued all martial arts practice. Takeda, it has been asserted, was friends with Kano - that would have been post 1900 - and Saigo Shiro was long gone by the time that such acquaintance would have happened. On the other hand, I've read others who state that they didn't know each other. Personally, I doubt they did. My reason is that Kano was so blown away by UEshiba - if you read Mochizuki's account, he doesn't say anything like, "Wow, this guy is just like my good friend, Takeda." Instead, Kano was apparently startled by Ueshiba's skills - and delegated some people to "get" them and bring them back to the Kodokan. If he had been friends with Takeda - given how he tried to incorporate anything strong into the Kodokan (note how he tried to do this with Funakoshi, and with different koryu) - he surely would have tried, openly, to get Takeda to teach him or more likely, his students. This is speculation, I admit, but it follows a pattern of Kano's whole life. Heck, he openly describes researching Western wrestling books to figure out a technique to beat a massive sempai in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, I believe, and came up with a version of kataguruma. This is a remarkably open, unegotistic man - in that day and age, he "admits" incorporating a western technique to win against a compatriot.
6. Yes, the skills that Saigo is described as having are remarkable - much like some descriptions I've heard of Mifune, for example. But one statement by Arima - who, btw, was not the best historian in other respects - does not establish much at all. I remember asking one prominent Kodokan teacher how good Saigo must have been. And his reply - "consider the times. There weren't many people training - and the art as really developed. They didn't even have uchikomi practice. He was probably like a good college yondan today." I'm not asserting my informant (who had never seen him) was right either. Just that it's even easier to fantasize about Saigo than Takeda or Ueshiba.
My point is this - you have a kid who is described by his teacher as a beginner. And after assiduous practice becomes remarkably good - just like some high school champion judo players today. How could he have at hidden aiki skills - that suddenly blossomed? Nobody describes him as walking in with anything. Defies logic.
And on another matter, Kano was not the kind of man who was so insecure as to hide the skills that his students might have walked in with and claimed for himself. Quite the contrary - his whole history - he recruited people from other martial arts to teach at the Kodokan.
Best
Ellis

[Hissho]

In my opinion, Nathan, its conjecture, at a considerable remove from the time and people in question.

Its good you won't be putting them forward in a court of law because they would fail to meet any evidentiary standard. Sticking to this line of thought DOES imply Kano is a liar, or at minimum deceitful (including to himself, in his own private papers), without any evidence of any sort that he was such a man in either public or private life.


Isn't there equal evidence to state that - stipulating that Saigo did come to Kano with some previously learned knowledge of Daito-ryu - that he was unable to make it work (or even to last during intensive keiko) until after he trained with Kano.

Hmmm. That makes sense to me.

Stay Safe!

[lucky1899]

I think the use of the term "liar" is too strong. Certainly, Ellis isn't calling Tokimune a liar since there is oral history claiming Saigo did train in Daito Ryu. Differences in accounts come from perspective. Even if Saigo was a really good fighter, maybe he didn't want to "show off" the first year and stuck to doing elementary judo...maybe not. One has to give doubt to the story being completely truthful or completely false.

Yours in Budo,

Andrew De Luna

[Nathan Scott]

Hi guys,

Ellis, let me start by saying you have a good point here:

My reason is that Kano was so blown away by UEshiba - if you read Mochizuki's account, he doesn't say anything like, "Wow, this guy is just like my good friend, Takeda." Instead, Kano was apparently startled by Ueshiba's skills - and delegated some people to "get" them and bring them back to the Kodokan.

That makes sense to me too. Kano's famous visit to see Ueshiba demonstrate was in 1930, at which time I believe Ueshiba was living in Tokyo and Sokaku was living in Shirataki, Hokkaido. Perhaps since Ueshiba had a nearby dojo, while Sokaku was known to travel around instead of teaching out of a dojo, it made more sense to send his students to Ueshiba?

The thing is, Sokaku (and some of his followers) made a career out of defeating Judo-ka, such as in the 1942 demonstration in Osaka I'll quote below (although this particular demonstration was approx. 4 years after Kano's death). Sokaku was well known during Kano's lifetime, and there were numerous Judo-ka (like Mochizuki, who was exposed to both Kano and Takeda directly) who were thrown by him throughout his career.

My contention that Kano and Takeda are friends is based on a comment by Tokimune in which he speaks of their relationship as if it was common knowledge (fully quoted below, and partially posted within this thread in post #35, page 3). While I have come across exaggerations from orthodox Daito-ryu exponents, I've yet to reveal evidence of any all out fabrications. Fabrications with the amount of detail Tokimune states is a bit unusual too - not that all of it is necessarily reliable historical research.

Anyway, I've not made an exhaustive search of Judo documents looking for proof of their association, but I have a feeling there is something written down somewhere else about it:

From Takeda Tokimune's interview published in AJ's CWDRM, pg. 68-69:

"Yes, [Kano and Takeda] met many times. Mr. Kano and Sokaku were close friends, since they were both martial artists of similar age. They met each other often in Tokyo ... there was also a man named Shohachiro Noguchi who was the chairman of a group called the Imperial Shobukai, and the friendship among these three was famous. Noguchi also studied with Sokaku. Also, the reason Kano sent Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki to Ueshiba was because Ueshiba was Sokaku's student.

A man called Saigo Shiro was also one of Kano's students. Sokaku met Kano [Jigoro] through his acquaintance with Saigo. Saigo Shiro also played a leading role in making the Kodokan well-known. He was a natural son of Saigo Tanomo, born out of wedlock. Therefore, although Shiro was Tanomo's real son, he later adopted him to make it official"

Shiro became adopted under Tanomo at about age 11 (in 1877). According to DR tradition, he studied seriously under Tanomo in oshikiuchi for 3 years before moving to Tokyo (13-14 years old). Even though he was one of the smaller guys at the 1888 taikai (how did a small guy beat everyone else when his skills were only slightly above average?), he managed to win at the still unseasoned age of 20 years old.

How much could someone learn between the ages of 11 and 13/14? Well, Kano himself stated that Saigo "stood out" from his other students. Could he have been a gifted martial artist that was forced to develop more advanced skills/principles based on his smaller size? Personally, I trained in Judo (and a bit of Aikido) for a few years beginning at 13 years old, and I still remember many of the throws, uchikomi methods, and basic principles of the art. I wasn't that great at Judo, but the teachings provided a good foundation for my future studies, and foot sweeps in particular have still proven to be an invaluable tool against those who are not aware of such openings in their posture.

The point that you both keep glossing over - and maybe its because my experiences are not the same as yours - is that certain advanced skills can only be developed over time, AND, are only useful once other skills become advanced enough to compliment them. I still learn from reflecting on the experience of feeling techniques once or twice from 10 years ago or more (and/or from reading notes I made about them at the time). But I was never able to understand or apply them until much later, until my foundational methods got better and my understanding of the art deepened enough.

As such, I'm suggesting that Saigo may have in fact sucked when he joined Judo, as Kano states, but over time may have either discovered how to apply what he was taught as a kid, or, apply what he may have seen/felt of Sokaku's methods at some later date AFTER moving to Tokyo. That would explain why his methodology of applying techniques was different, and according to one eye witness account from a Judo-ka (regardless of his ability level - the description of his observations is quite telling), characteristic of Daito-ryu methodology. There was only 6-7 years between the time that Shiro was supposed to have been exposed to Tanomo, and the time that he won the 1888 taikai using Judo. Just proposing the possibility.

I agree that Shiro and Tanomo probably had little contact after he moved to Tokyo. How much contact they had prior to moving to Tokyo is what is unknown. Sure, Tanomo was busy, but apparently he was also concerned with preparing an adopted son to help him continue his ancestoral "Hoshina" family line. Guess we'll never know.

I realize there is no evidence that Tanomo had significant budo training (Aizu was a stronghold of martial arts though, and he would have grown up doing some degree of martial arts either way. Let's at least agree on this point). I know a diary of his life was written that didn't contain any mention of martial arts training, but personally, I don't find that in itself compelling in either direction. However, there is a point in Tanomo's life where he decided it was important to change his name back to that of his ancestors, "Hoshina". Hoshina Masayuki, his ancestor, was the first lord or Aizu, and was supposedly the founder of the oshikiuchi art. If oshikuchi did exist as a palace self-defense art, and Tanomo was interested in continuing the lineage (through to Shiro, who appears to have been adopted into the family under the name of "Hoshino" as well), it is possible that he might have been exposed to it, either as a "family" art, or through Sokaku's grandfather. Sure, only Tokimune asserts this history, but why would Sokaku hang out with Tanomo otherwise? Sokaku was pretty single minded about martial arts and testing his abilities, which is why he did not have the patience to attend school or become a priest under Tanomo.

Originally Sokaku was sent to Tanomo to become a priest in 1875, but left for Kyushu in 1877 - the same year Shiro was adopted into the Hoshina family. Shiro left for Tokyo in 1881, and Sokaku returned to see him Tanomo in 1898 at which time he was supposedly given succession of Hoshina's system. Sure, it could all be made up fantasy, or it could be true. If you want to write off Tokimune's statements as a total lack of evidence, you're welcome to. I view his history, so far, as plausible and reasonably possible. The detail of Tokimune's family/art history is extremely detailed, and I've yet to find contradictions within his claims.

Ellis, I'm not sure what makes you think Takeda must have met Kano after 1900. Shiro left the Kodokan in 1890. Prior to that Shiro was active in the dojo and still ranking up under Kano. In 1888, for example, Sokaku returned to Aizu, got married, and is believed to have visited Saigo Tanomo several times. Between 1888 and 1898, Sokaku appears to have traveled around Miyagi-ken in the Tohoku region of Honshu (Sendai in particular), north of Tokyo. Though traveling on foot would have been slow, there was a major road that ran between Edo and Sendai. Other than this overview of the eimeiroku record, its unclear where else Sokaku may have traveled through during this time, though he returned to Aizu again in 1898. Aside from a brief trip to Hokkaido, Sokaku continued to work the Aizu to Tohoku area until 1910, when he moved to Hokkaido. In 1922 he and his family visited Aizu, Tokyo and Ayabe (near Kyoto) for a period of over 5 months. From 1931 to 1939 (Kano died in 1938), Sokaku again returned to Honshu and traveled through Iwate, Tokyo, Aizu, Yamagata, Osaka, and Miyagi-ken.

How could [Shiro] have at hidden aiki skills - that suddenly blossomed?

That is a rhetorical question we will have to disagree on - in principal at least.

BTW, while I appreciate the discussion, I find it interesting that nobody has any problem pointing fingers at prominent figures in Daito-ryu and stating that they are liars, while at the same time, the same people get deeply offended if any implication of falsehoods is made about other notables like Kano (who, BTW, I was not trying to imply was lying). Personally, I've seen more people lie in martial arts than tell the truth, so I don't find ANY stories outside the realm of question. But I don't see why we can't at least be fair about it? ;)

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

One thing that is probably worth addressing is a difference in dates between DR oral history and the Kodokan Judo dictionary entry:

Following is a reference to Saigo Shiro that was published in the "Kodokan New Japanese-English Dictionary of Judo", Kodokan Judo Institute, 2000:

"Saigo Shiro (1866-1922) - Third son of Shida Sadajiro, a samurai of the Aizu Domain, born in 1866 in Aizu Wakamatsu. In 1882 he moved to Tokyo and enrolled in the Kodokan. In 1884 he was adopted into the family of Saigo Tanomo, a former elder councillor of the Aizu Domain and took the name Hoshina Shiro [after his natural father Tanomo, who had changed his name to Hoshina Chikanori]. In 1888 he reverted to the surname Saigo in order to resurrect the Saigo family line, which had died out with the passing of Saigo Tanomo. Exceptionally talented a martial artist, he was particularly well known for his powerful yama arashi ("mountain storm") technique. He earned the rank of shodan in judo in August 1883, nidan in September of the same year, jumped to yodan in August 1885, and godan in January 1889. However, he later left the Kodokan organization in May 1890 while Jigoro Kano was away travelling. He is also known to have been the model for the main character in Tomita Tsuneo's 1942 novel 'Sugata Sanshiro'. He died in Onomichi in Hiroshima prefecture in December 1922."

This history sounds pretty solid. This account says Shiro went to Tokyo in 1882 instead of 1881, but discrepancies of a year in either direction is common in translations of Japanese years (depends on how anal the translator is).

What is different, and is perhaps what Ellis is referring to, is the above entries stating that Shiro was adopted into the Hoshina family in 1884, 2-3 years after he already moved to Tokyo. Shiro had already received a nidan in Judo in the previous year - it would seem kind of pointless to adopt a son who had already established an independent life in another town. But in any event, though the reference sounds pretty credible, it is not without its flaws. The entry states Saigo Tanomo had already died in 1888, but Tanomo did not die until April 28th of 1903. So no guarantees with Judo's history of this subject either.

Regards,