What does Koryu demand?

[Jari Virta]

It is often repeated that the koryu are not for the masses. That they demand a lot more of the student than the gendai arts. I have heard things like "one must learn to speak good Japanese to study koryu" "one can only learn good koryu by staying in Japan for extended periods", etc.

How much of this is true, ie. what does the koryu demand from the student that a more modern art does not? How does this show, if a person begins to study a koryu art in the same manner as he would study Karate-do, Kendo or similar modern arts, how would he find out that he's doing "the wrong thing", would he not get rank or what? :confused:

Any comments are welcome.

[Arman]

In my opinion, there is a lot of mumbo-jumbo that surrounds koryu arts. If you find a school and dedicate yourself to training, you will be fine. The only caveat is that you really, really have to dedicate yourself. It is also true that the training and overall approach is quite different than, say, Judo training, or aikido. Many teachers won't spoon feed the kata to you, requiring the student to learn by constant repitition and observation. Then, when the teacher thinks the student is ready, he will provide a kernel of knowledge to correct your kata. And so on. Other teachers aren't so classical in their teaching methods, even though the art is classical. Also, in a koryu art, you are partaking directly in a tradition, a cultural lineage, so to speak, and as such the student takes on a great amount of responsibility in their training. Where Judo is primarily a competitive sport, koryu budo/bujutsu are primarliy living, martial traditions with no emphasis on competition. Where aikido is a very free-flowing art designed to emphasize harmony in any manifestation, koryu budo/bujutsu are very strict and formal, with no room for casual experimentation by the student. And so on.
What I find silly, however, are those that talk about the koryu like some sacred temple that only those enlightened enough may visit. Give me a break. All you need is an open mind, the time to dedicate your life to a particular ryu, and the maturity to recognize the responsibility the student has in preserving and protecting the art they are learning.

That's my opinion, anyway, for what it's worth. And I am no professed expert. There are probably many on this board who have far greater koryu experience and knowledge than myself. I have only studied one true koryu (Shindo Muso-ryu), and only for a short amount of time. Btw, you should also check out the literature on the subject. There is a lot of good material on koryu budo/bujutsu. While not a substitute for real training, they are good sources for supplemental knowledge.

Hope this helps,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

[Jari Virta]

Thanks for the comments.

Originally posted by Arman
Btw, you should also check out the literature on the subject. There is a lot of good material on koryu budo/bujutsu. While not a substitute for real training, they are good sources for supplemental knowledge.

Yes, I have read quite a bit. Right now I'm sort of "between arts". I quit my earlier martial endeavors and am looking for a new art. (Don't take this as if I'm an "art-hopper", I had my reasons for departing.)

Koryu arts interest me and I have access to some decent dojos. But I have read from many online-sources that if I want koryu, I must go to Japan once a year (= minimum usually), learn fluent Japanese (preferably bakun too), and so on.

I am willing to study with devotion, "'till grave", and uphold the tradition unchanged, but I am not willing to succumb to a cult that demands I spend every penny I ever earn on trips to meet The Grand Guru(tm) and all waking hours studying some ancient kanji.

[Arman]

Proficiency in Japanese is not a necessity. It does help, however, because many koryu masters do not speak English. Also, the reason so many people say you have to go to Japan for koryu is simply because there is very little true koryu outside of Japan. Be very careful when choosing a koryu, especially one outside of Japan. Check out everything about the art and the credentials of the teacher. If you can find someone in the U.S., for example, authorized to teach a koryu art, then Japanese proficiency isn't really necessary, since your teacher will most likely speak Japanese and be a convenient bridge for you. You will, however, most likely be required to travel to Japan at least once a year or every two years to train at the main dojo, even though there is a U.S. branch.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

[MarkF]

I've heard said by some of the more well known koryu practitioners that everything you do is "for the ryu, by the ryu, in the ryu" provided the teacher even lets you in the door, and even then, the negative decision must be accepted, and the search must go on for another koryu.

As to training in Japan, "to get the true flavor" or is it that not the dirt under your feet which matters.

And what about those arts which trip on the set time line of 1868 which are done, in every way, like koryu, but, for the time, it is gendai. What? "Sorry, you weren't born early enough." Then there is this competition thing which doesn't exist in koryu, but only in sportified jujutsu, judo, etc. Do you really believe that there were no competitions in kyujutsu? In fact, competition became a very important fact of life, it just wasn't a symbolic combative victory of today, you became the new old master of jujutsu because your ryu just beat the dalylights out of the ryu just outside town and down the street.

Why is it that all these koryu are so similar? You say not, but in reality, they are very similar. Some of all of them can find their way into each other's old school arts. Competition, stealing the technique which beat you, was all too common.

I wonder if the "jumping in" of students is still common. No, it couldn't be as we have developed as human beings and such behavior is not tolerated.

I wonder who started that tradition, the one in which you were no longer "jumped in?"

Mark

[Arman]

By the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate, the bujutsu ryu became less relevant to everday life. Hence, the transformation of the bujutsu to budo (I know it isn't that clear cut - I'm just using a gross oversimplification for discussion purposes). Practicality on the battlefield was not as important. Thus, technical proficiency and competition all declined in the Tokugawa era. It only got worse after the Meiji Restoration. I don't think we can really even compare, say, a kenjutsu koryu today with whatever was taught five or six hundred years ago. Even those arts that have preserved much of their curriculum over the centuries have undergone substantial modifications in the method and practice of instruction. While originally the primary focus of these arts was killing proficiency, by the mid-Tokugawa, the primary focus had shifted to one of spiritual development and enlightenment. Just imagine, for example, how different judo training would be today if the goal was killing your opponent rather than throwing him to the ground! (Wait a minute! Isn't that why Kano created Judo? So people could practice the old arts in a way that didn't result in death or serious injury to the opponent? :) )

Sincerely,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

[Jari Virta]

Originally posted by Arman
I don't think we can really even compare, say, a kenjutsu koryu today with whatever was taught five or six hundred years ago.

I remember reading somewhere (admittedly a vague source... :p ) that Hatsumi of Bujinkan had said that he is the only one teaching like during Sengoku-era. When asked, what did he mean ("But there are lots of koryu arts!") he said that other old styles had stagnated into relics that only repeat the same old kata over and over. The feeling I got from it, was that in Sengoku-era people practiced more henka (variations of kata) and mixed, matched and tested stuff more, not sticking to one True School (tm) only.

Any ideas or opinions on this? And I'm curious: has anyone else heard/read this?

[charlesl2]

Hey Mark, what do you mean by "jumping in"? Sorry, not familiar with the phrase.

-Charles Lockhart

[gmellis]

:D

[hyaku]

Learning either older or more modern forms of the arts A proficiency in Japanese is desirable and is part and parcel of learning Budo. Western groups have adapted their arts to suit westerners.

Even in the modern forms they are written tests in for example Kendo and Iaido in Japan.

Hyakuatake Colin http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

[Kit LeBlanc]

Jari,

Read this:


http://www.shinyokai.com/interview.htm

Good stuff. I believe it provides a balanced and practical perspective compared to some other stuff on the koryu. Ya gotta read the whole thing, the good stuff (i.e. not all about the particular school this man was the headmaster of) is in the middle and the end.

[Jari Virta]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
I believe it provides a balanced and practical perspective compared to some other stuff on the koryu. Ya gotta read the whole thing, the good stuff (i.e. not all about the particular school this man was the headmaster of) is in the middle and the end.

Thanks, good stuff indeed. :smilejapa

[charlesl2]

I read the article/interview. It was interesting. One thing I couldn't quite pick up: the gentleman being interviewed seemed to indicate that many traditional Japanese arts/ways had become outdated in their practice, and that he had shifted his focus to more applicable principles, but I couldn't get a good feel for which principles that koryu focus on he felt were outdated.

As for the other element he discussed, how the techniques were outdated, probably he's right about at least some of it. But in my completely unqualified opinion, the techniques in koryu are (or should be) more about expressing and teaching principles. Just my take on it though.

Uh, but none of that has much to do with the original post, sorry.

In my, again, unqualified opinion, koryu training involves a somewhat complicated personal relationship between the teacher and student that has greater degree of loyalty and respect than most modern arts that I've seen or experienced. I think understanding that is more important than issues of language or physical location. I don't think that just speaking Japanese or visiting Japan for a while is going to teach you that.


-Charles Lockhart

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by charlesl2
One thing I couldn't quite pick up: the gentleman being interviewed seemed to indicate that many traditional Japanese arts/ways had become outdated in their practice, and that he had shifted his focus to more applicable principles, but I couldn't get a good feel for which principles that koryu focus on he felt were outdated.
this is a good point: to what degree do you maintain form for the sake of "preserving the tradition"? to what degree do you innovate for the sake of "practicality". i figure each school is free to make its own decision. the potential student simply has to do their research well and choose a school that agrees with their training goals.
... koryu training involves a somewhat complicated personal relationship between the teacher and student that has greater degree of loyalty and respect than most modern arts that I've seen or experienced.
training in some martial arts is close in structure to working out at a fitness club or belonging to a local sports team: you pay your dues, sweat your sweat, and you see the benefits of steady training. you'll probably make some decent friendships and build a good relationship with your teacher. this isn't bad, it's just the modern way of doing things. but as Charles says, koryu training is a step beyond these basics. the relationship between student and teacher is meant to be deeper, and a student's loyalty to their teacher and dojo is expected to be stronger.

now, in japan even within the modern martial arts you still see this ethic at work. the master-disciple relationship is a fundamental paradigm in japanese culture so you can hardly expect to avoid it. perhaps it's simply that koryu arts make a bigger effort to maintain that tradition where modern arts may not.
I think understanding that is more important than issues of language or physical location. I don't think that just speaking Japanese or visiting Japan for a while is going to teach you that.
simply spending time in japan and learning some japanese isn't going to do the trick, just as Charles says. on the other hand, time spent living here and seriously studying the language will definitely pay rewards in your martial arts training, particularly in koryu. martial arts training, language study, cultural exploration ... you can't do any of these things half-assedly and expect to reap the full benefit. however, make a real effort and you'll see the difference.

[Joseph Svinth]

Charles --

"Jumping in" and "beating in" are terms sometimes used to describe violent initiation rites into gangs. Basically, current members beat the hell out of the new guy. See, for example, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/assist/nvaa2000/academy/chap22-3.htm .

Some dojo and kwoon also have beatings in. The place where the beatings are held is often called The Room.

If you really want into the group/gang/school that uses beatings-in as a ritual, then seriously fighting back is not recommended. (Defend yes, but don't really fight back.) Although this sounds odd, especially since serious injuries and even death occur during beatings-in, the reason is that the beating-in is not a fight, but instead a way of showing how badly you want into the school/gang.

Some martial art schools and many gangs also have "jumping out" rituals in which members beat the person leaving even harder. Again, successful resistance is problematic, as if you beat up the seniors then they have lost face and so may have to come back with guns or knives to try and kill you.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by charlesl2
Hey Mark, what do you mean by "jumping in"? Sorry, not familiar with the phrase.

-Charles Lockhart

May I give you a non-relevant answer then?

The term is a modern one in which wannabes of street gangs are beat on and more, survive and you are a member.

When the shogunate was gone, then later the using/carrying of weapons, swords, tanto, etc., the older jujutsu schools acted as little more than thugs, caused fights in the streets to call attention and try new technnique they learned.

One of Jigoro's complaints of the koryu of the time was exactly this and was something he detested. It was one of the reasons for a school of jujutsu, to study ran, as in the jikishin ryu, and hold matches which carried symbolic, but combative victory.

Competition, though is as old as Mt. Fujiyama as regular challenges at times went "all the way." It wasn't the focus, but they certainly took place.

Sorry, I went too far with my non-relevent answer.:)

Mark

I hadn't seen Joe's post on the subject so never mind my "jumping in" here.