Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai

[Jyri]

Amatsu sensei's viewpoint about Daito ryu is a bit different. Here is link to the his homepage:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/

It doesn't contain much stuff yet, but it is still worth of visiting.


Amatsu sensei has also written an article about Hisa Takuma and Daito-ryu. It is available in our (Takumakai,Finland) home page:
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

I hope you find these links interesting.

Jyri Lamminmaki
Daito-ryu Takumakai, Finland

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Lamminmaki,

Interesting page. Thanks for posting it.

On the page under "techniques", the following is listed:

After I [was] promoted to 6th Dan (6 degree), Hisa taught me in a one-on-one style. He stressed these 3 points:

1. Do not just throw the enemy. Throw him in order to attack his joints. Daito ryu's main objective is to attack the joints.

2. Use your legs. Legs are stronger than arms.

3. Daitoryu has no Atemi (striking). When it looks like striking it is a trick for attacking joints.

This is quite interesting. The idea of using the legs to pin the opponent is very logical, though most of these pins seem to be used in Jujutsu as opposed to the Aikijujutsu (is this the case?)

Point number one seems to say that, rather than simply throwing the enemy down in any fashion (such as a Judo-style hip throw), that it is important to lock the joints up during the throw, and keep them locked through to the pin. If this is true, it is another interesting point.

But the most thought provoking point is the third, in which Amatsu Sensei says that Hisa S. taught to replace atemi opportunities with joint locks instead. That is hard to imagine in some cases, but a very interesting idea.

Anyone care to discuss or comment on any of these points?

Regards,

[CKohalyk]

Mr. Scott,


>The idea of using the legs to pin the opponent is very >logical, though most of these pins seem to be used in >Jujutsu as opposed to the Aikijujutsu (is this the case?)

I believe Amatsu-sensei is referring to striking here. He always says that since the legs are many times stronger than the arms, don't bother using arms for atemi. Use a joint-lock to throw the enemy down, then strike with the legs.

But Jyrki-san knows more about this than I do.

CK

[MarkF]

OK, Nathan, you just gotta prove your point using what is not true necessarily of judo, don't ya?:)

Transition in judo is not 1,2,3, but maintaing a lock on the opponent is a tried and true manner of control, and it ain't no secret, either! While rule of shiai or randori say one should not "wrestle" one to the mat, tori can take a skeletal lock, using atemiwaza to unbalance the opponent, taking him down with the appropriate nage, maintaining control, is tested and true, even with a "basic judo hip throw."

I won't mention the word, but sometimes it is just there and while uke may feel it, tori won't even realize just what it was that he used to take down his uke.

Of course, this is just the omote of judo. You won't know the ura for at least three decades, if that. It takes a firm commitmant to judo, just to open the door. If you are there after this, then you may understand this, and even then you may not. Hehehe.

Next lesson, we will visit the most ancient of judo kata, ko shiki no kata, but remember to bring your armor.:up:

Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Sorry Mark-san. Didn't think I'd get nabbed for that.

My reference to Judo was of standard olympic style, which is by far the most common type of Judo seen and understood by most. When most people say "Judo", that is what they think of. When the day come that the majority of Judo reverts back to Kodokan style Judo, then people will have to change their generalization of the art, eh?

Creating pressure against the joints and creating a joint lock are two diffenent things. A joint lock is a "lock", and mean the joint is immobolized. To the best of my knowledge, joint locks are illegal in Judo because it is far to easy to break uke's joints if they are allowed to lock. Even some of the older Kodokan Judo stuff I've played with seems to involve more emphasis on tewaza to create a more refined kuzushi and resultant technique. This isn't the place for discussions of Judo though, I guess...

But in any event, perhaps that was not an accurate example to use. My point was that, judging from what was written by Amatsu Sensei, DR as taught in the Takumakai appears to emphasize performing skeletal locking in order to perform throws. This idea is different from how some Jujutsu styles (including modern Judo) perform throws by sweeping, or off balancing/leverage. It's not a matter of better or worse, just different.

Regards,

[Sheridan]

Amatsu-sensei might have been speaking of ura-kata himself in this case? (Not sure.)

[Dan Harden]

1. Do not just throw the enemy. Throw him in order to attack his joints. Daito ryu's main objective is to attack the joints.

2. Use your legs. Legs are stronger than arms.

3. Daitoryu has no Atemi (striking). When it looks like striking it is a trick for attacking joints.
***********************************

Gentlemen

You are going to have a difficult time fleshing this out.

First:
To say "Daito ryu's main objective is this"
OR "Daito ryu is this or that" are very definitve statements aren't they?
Personally When I hear such things, I ask myself "This gentleman's statement is based on which Daito *RYU*?
Do you suppose the Daito kan teaches the same techniques as the the takumakai? Roppokai? etc. Do you think the manner in which they express Aiki are all the same?
Secondly:
These statements are not very detailed. I could (for example) make an argument that his statement regarding the legs may have nothing at all to do with "Striking with the legs", as postulated here.
Positional placement of the legs, in many jujutsu arts will (in a technical sense) do many things, with the use of the legs to pin the opponent when he is *down* (mentioned as well) being only ONE part of the use of the legs. In deeper arts they also have subtle uses to pin an opponent in place while he is standing up, or in dropping him. Moreover, use of the legs to "effect various responses" in someones joints is a lengthy discussion in and of itself. Any discussion of the use of the legs is pointless without a rather detailed discussions of entering methodology, vectoring, use of placement of center, upper body and well.....everything else. "Trying to brace the roots, when the branches are freely swaying" is a pointless exercise.
Further, You could talk till you were blue in the face. TKD people, Judoka, Bujinkan, Aikido, Yanagi ryu and all manner of everyone else could say "AHH! Yes! yes! I get it. We do it too."
Then you watch them
They are NOT doing the same movement, or effecting the same principles....

AND that is just ONE sentence. The other two statements are a week's worth of discussions. Yet very little, if anything will be gained discussing it. The people who really know, won't discuss it anyway.

regards
Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 11-09-2000 at 07:08 AM]

[Brently Keen]

I agree with Dan.

In Daito-ryu (at least in the Roppokai branch) we do have many different ways of striking/attacking the enemy. Unless Amatsu-san was purposely being vague or misleading though (which is possible), our concepts and interpretations of what constitutes atemi and striking may be quite different.

One could actually observe Roppokai practice for a long time and hardly (if ever) see conventional atemi or striking techniques. And therefore come to the conclusion that atemi are not included or practiced by our group. However, as is often the case in Daito-ryu the truth is hidden beneath the surface. It's intentionally not obvious, so you can't even see it.

First it depends on how you define "atemi", and what constitutes atemi. Then it also depends on how and in what context one uses atemi.

Ueshiba said that aikido was 90% atemi. What does that mean to most people? What did HE actually mean when he said that? What was he talking about?

Lot's of people who practice aikido actually reject this whole idea. Others use this statement to validate the addition of striking techniques from other arts into their aikido - usually in order to be more "practical", "street effective", or combative. Many people think this is the difference between aikijujutsu and aikido, but that's just another myth. IMO neither are correct, but that's aikido. From my perspective within Daito-ryu, the conventional conception of "atemi" as "punching" is not only dangerous, it's almost laughable, or as my seniors used to say "nonsense".

Amatsu-san is correct when he says we don't have atemi in Daito-ryu (but I would add "conventional" atemi). Sokaku Takeda said, "...we will not strike, we will not kick, we will not kill." But what did he mean by that? That we do not have striking, kicking or killing techniques? What about the famous "ichigeki hissatsu" techniques? One of the first things you have to learn when you study aiki is that reality and appearances are two different things, in fact things are hardly ever what they seem to be. A clue is found in what Sokaku said in his next few sentences, "It is completely for self-defense..."

Some of you are probably wondering why I'm contradicting myself here, because in other posts I've talked about the combative or "jutsu" aspect of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as a classical system (koryu bujutsu) as opposed to the more self-defense oriented modern (gendai budo) styles of jujutsu/aikido. I'm not, it's merely a paradox that only seems contradictory until it's seen in the right light and/or in it's proper context. Sorry, but even as a member of perhaps the most open, progressive branch of Daito-ryu, I don't think a public forum such as this is the proper context in which to divulge those "secrets".

I suppose I've said enough already. Good post Dan.

Brently

[Earl Hartman]

Just a quick note about atemi. The word is composed of two Chinese characters: "ateru" (usually meaning to strike) and "mi" (body). Thus, "striking body".

It should come as no surprise to anyone that this could mean different things to different people. In Nagao Ryu, for instance, atemi can be either a quick strike with the hand or foot, or it can involve grasping/attacking "kyusho" (vital points) as a component of unbalancing and throwing, or as a finishing technique. There is also subtle atemi involved in how the attacker's hand/arm is grasped. None of these things are as obvious as a "karate style" punch or kick, so as Brently says, they are not out in the open. I am not that familiar with aikido or aikujujutsu, but I have had aikido practitioners demonstrate certain wristlocks such as sankyo on me. The way in which the wrist is manipulated involves atemi, that is, attacks to certain anatomical weak points or nerve bundles in the hand and wrist, which can render the recipeient helpless. These are contained within the technique, which looks like nothing more than a wrist twist to the uninitiated, and so are not visible as discrete strikes. Thus, while they don't look like what people think atemi might look like, they are atemi nonetheless. In many Nagao Ryu kata, success or failure depends entirely upon whether the initial atemi attack to the target kyusho is successful or not.

On one of the Daito Ryu websites (I can't remember which one) there is a picture of Tokimune Sensei. The thing about the picture that was most immediately noticable to me was the obvious strength of Tokimune Sensei's hands and wrists. The reason I noticed this is because my Nagao Ryu sensei had incredibly strong wrists and fingers; for such a small man his grasping strength was phenomenal. Once he laid his hands on a kyusho, it was all over. To an onlooker, it would appear that he was only touching a person; in reality a kyusho was being attacked. This is very subtle, and without knowing what to look for, it can't be seen, as Brently says. This is not to say that Daito Ryu and Nagao Ryu atemi techniques are the same, so we don't need to go over that again. I only offer the Nagao Ryu example as another part of the mix.

Earl


[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-10-2000 at 12:19 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

To change the subject a bit...

I came across an interesting article in Aiki News #85 (1990), called "Daito-ryu Aiki Budo", by Takuma Hisa. It is an article he wrote for a magazine called "Shin Budo", published in 1942:

"Sokaku Takeda was born in Aizu wakamatsu-cho, Fukushima Prefecture. From boyhood he learned kendo, and at the age of 18, he received a license in Nito-ryu, and later received licensesin Ono-ha itto ryu, and Jikishinkage ryu."

I suppose the "Nito-ryu" may have been that which is taught in kendo, but I'd be interested to learn more about this. As some of you may have noticed, there is a level of trasmission in Daito ryu named "Daito ryu Aiki Nito-ryu", and the Saigo-ha group has a book written in Japanese called "Daito ryu Aiki Nito Ken". Dubious as they may be, there may be a trace of truth in the book somewhere. I haven't tried to translate any of it yet though, so I have no idea right now.

"From that time we not only devoted ourselves to training under Ueshiba sensei regardless of the severity of the weather, but even invited Ueshiba sensei's teacher, Sokaku Takeda Dai-sensei, the headmaster of the art, all the way from Hokkaido to teach us the secret arts of Daito ryu which were forbidden to be taught to outsiders."

Whether Sokaku s. was invited to the Asahi Shimbun to replace Ueshiba s. by his own students, or whether Sokaku had appeared on his own accord after learning of Morihei's position there has been the subject of much unresolved controversy.

Takuma s. clearly states in this article that he had invited Sokaku s. This is a significant statement, but I'm still not convinced that it is a fact based soley on this article. Upon reading the entire article, it appears as if Takuma s. was very patriotic and confident. He sounds as if he is selling the art, and himself, and several things he says in there appear to be, at the very least, exaggerated, and perhaps even created in order to show his experience, resolve and "Yamato" spirit.

Thats not to say that this statement is incorrect though. I've often thought it might be the case myself, and the fact that Takuma s. is comfortable with saying so, whether true or not, shows that they did not respect Ueshiba s. - at least at that time.

Keep in mind also that Takuma s. and the other students had been recreating the techniques and photographing them without the knowledge of either instructor, which they would have surely posed for themselves if they were willing to document them on film. I'm not trying to put down Takuma s. and it's members, but this is the history of their study, even though the photographic records are now considered a very valuable resource.

There is another interesting statement, that may or may not be accurate:

"A fellow student, Yoshiteru Yoshimura, who had been devoting himself tirelessly to his training was the first one to be honored by being called into service. He fought in one place after another in battles which took place deep in China. With the secret techniques of Daito ryu he was undefeatable and found the techniques to be very effective in a real setting."

Mr. Ellis Amdur made a comment in an Aikido Journal collumn once that he felt Daito ryu waza did not follow koryu methodology in some ways, and that the techniques were overly complicated for combative situations.

I'd be interested to know if he was referring to the jujutsu or the aikijujutsu techniques, and how they are more complicated. The preceding quote may have been propaganda written by Takuma s., or it may not have been. Guess we'll never know for sure.

Takuma s. also mentions that he "published a book introducing the teachings of Daito ryu called Kanagara no Budo (The Martial Art of the Kami) in 1940, which coincided with the glorious anniversary of the 2600th year of the reign of Emperor Jimmu."

I wonder if this has survived anywhere outside the guarded reach of the Takumakai? There are apparently other published books I hadn't heard of before, one called "Urawaza hiden" (the Secrets of Technique Reversals) published in 1941, and another called "Joshi Budo" (Martial Arts for Women).

:)

[Ron Tisdale]

I believe Jose Garrido teaches in NYC. He posts occationally on the aikido journal web site. I can't vouche for his technique, but his information always seems good. I believe he participates in Kondo Sensei's seminars as well.

Ron Tisdale

[Arman]

The point on atemi is fairly vague. In mainline Daito-ryu, however, atemi is clearly an element of many kata (to the ribs, to the face, and to various other points on the body). Some are hard strikes, others are distracting strikes.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

[Dan Harden]

Atemi

A fundamental Ideal of "good" jujutsu is to take an opponents balance at the moment of contact-and to not release, fade, evade, or otherwise "lose it" from there. As such, ate waza-is an adjunct to building and or maintaining, kuzushi. For that reason, atemi is more than a simple striking of a body part. Captured correctly, your forward moving hip or shoulder movement can cause what feels like a punch to their center or shoulders. While it "feels" mysterious, it is entirely structural and sound in principle. Using your own hips or Thorax to connect makes an "in-motion" atemi that is not fun to take and its use is in standing technique or to help smother on the ground is in Koryu jujutsu.

Nathan
I share your confusion about Hisa. In his interview in Stanley's book he clearly states that Takeda simply "showed up." page 110
When asked to clarify he restates it clearly that he had no idea Sokaku was coming or who he was! He describes the encounter with him as if he had no idea what he looked like, and other then hearing his name from Ueshiba Sensei he couldn't believe the "little old guy" would be able to do much.

As to his being dismissive of Ueshiba I wouldn't go that far.
He was clearly taken by the superior technique of Takeda (a re-occuring theme for all who met them both-even those who disliked Sokaku Sensei)
quote: page 118
__________________________________________

"Everyone had been absorbed in Ueshibas beautiful techniques; but right then we became completely facinated by the strong techniques of this old master...........everyone there immediately bowed low at sensei's feet and asked to become his student......no matter how many times Sokaku Sensei said he would teach me I couldn't believe it was true it was unbelievable!"

_____________________________________________


It is interesting to note Tokimune's observational opinion of Hisa's technique.

quote:
__________________________________
"But when it came to the details of technique, Ueshiba Sensei was better. Mr. Ueshiba studied with Sokaku for a much longer time."
__________________________________

There is a picture of Tokimune standing with Sokaku, Hisa, Tonedate (another Menkyo recipient, although I still count Kodo) at the Asahi newspaper. So it would appear that Tokimune was there to know.

At any rate, I think it is clear that Ueshiba's technique was superb, even though it was less than Takeda.



Nito ryu

You should ask, I think you will find they are not taught as sword techniques per se.



Undefeatable?

Our intrepid Mr. Yoshimura, may have "found the techniques to be very effective in a real setting." and he may have been quite the soldier but with all the "secret techniques of Daito ryu" at his disposal -he was most certainly "defeatable!"
I would call him lucky or blessed to have come home in one piece.

The "undefeatable statements" whether "as quoted" or not, really should not be repeated anymore in my opinion. It is patently ridiculous, particularly when placed in a war environment. I equate these statements to the Golden light, bullet dodging, light bulbs going off nonsense of some early Ueshiba followers. We should be embarassed to repeat them.

Daito ryu secret techniques make you undefeatable?
Please!

I know you do not ascribe to such philosophy-I make it as a generalized statement only.

I loved your quiet reserved comments about filming the techniques without approval behind closed doors (and backs) and the mentioning of them as being considered a valued resource today!

Done today, in the same way,
I wonder what everyone would say?

Then again I would love to see how many of these legends would fair in todays open environment.

Whats that??
What what?
Is that mist coming up around your feet Nathan?
On a quiet day, an ill wind is known to bring rummbling roarring sounds down around me...and many have been slain by the results!

Dan
"who can barely dodge snowballs
I'll leave the bullets to those who can "see" them coming.

[Dan Harden]

Complexity and Koryu methodology:

I think “seeing” the complexity of techniques in many arts is a frequent mistake in observation of what Kata try to convey. I can draw a corollary to TSKSR; many who see the long involved Kata think that they convey a series of techniques that are supposed to happen that way, and that there is a winner and loser.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
So, seeing Kata in a fashion that you perceive to be the way they are to used would lead to one opinion
Studying to use Kata and know their principles in a fashion where they work in a rapid response or force on force venue may lead to an alltogether different opinion.
Or maybe not.

My gosh you could write several pages on that one subject alone

Dan

[Nathan Scott]

Yeah, I agree with everything your saying Dan.

The "undefeatable" part of the quote was not the subject of focus. I could have chosen to paraphrase the quote, but generally, I'd prefer to quote directly with references in order to reduce the amount of assumptions on my part. Also, you can get a feel for the personalities and tone by the way in which articles are written.

Hisa sensei sounds very confident and patriotic. Judging from his writing, I get the impression that he would say what he felt was considered appropriate at the time.

There is something to be said for the age of the teacher too. It can be noted in many, if not most cases, that an instructor in the latter years of his life will tend to be much more forthcoming with ranks than they were in their younger years. Concerns for the continuation of their art becomes paramount in their mind, and influential people are sometimes chosen to ensure that the art survives.

Not to take away anything from Hisa sensei, but Stan Pranin also pointed this out in one of his older editorials, though more in regard to new arts.

Rank needs to be kept in perspective with the atmosphere in which it was given.

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Dan Harden
He was clearly taken by the superior technique of Takeda (a re-occuring theme for all who met them both-even those who disliked Sokaku Sensei)

Not Noriaki Inoue :) .


At any rate, I think it is clear that Ueshiba's technique was superb, even though it was less than Takeda.

I think that you also have to remember that people who were comparing them around, say, 1935 were comparing a person who had been training for 60 some years (Takeda) to someone who had been training for some 40 some years (Ueshiba). A twenty year difference is pretty big no matter who you're talking about! Certainly, if people compare me to my instructors I fall short. Whether the same thing can be said in twenty years after they are long gone is hard to say.

Trying to compare the two is a little like trying to figure out who would win a fight between Mike Tyson and Joe Louis (The Brown Bomber). While it's kind of fun, it's also more or less pointless, and, practically speaking, probably impossible.

By the way, my teacher is bigger then your teacher :) .

Best,

Chris

[Dan Harden]

I don't think the question of "who's teacher is better than whos" is part of the discussion. I do believe they both are deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts-and I said as much

Noriaki Inoue
I should have been more clear and stated that those who "trained" with both seemd to have acknowledged Takedas superior level of skill, even when they didn't like him. Why? Don't know. Don't particularly care either.
Noriaki didn't train with Sokaku, he refused. Thats why he's in "the other book" on Aikido. I agree with your example of "time in" when comparing the two -but more to the point- we will never know how it played out. Clearly they went in different directions and there was none to compare the two in later years.

Trying to figure out who was who, and being appreciative of Stanleys efforts to bring one of the "WHOS" into proper historical perspective is the nature of most of our discussions here. Sokaku was pretty much a non player to us all until Stanley brought him and DR to life here and even in Japan. The relationship between Takeda, Ueshiba and Hisa was complex and even comical at times it seems.

What if Ueshiba had brought DR into superior technique? Or Sagawa? Was Takeda truly the best there was? Or were they all equal but in different directions? Who cares..... It seems clear that the direction of the three is different anyway.
Where and how that plays into your mental picture of trying to establish who' teacher is better than who's is your business. In trying to sort it out and who was who, when, and where, and why, what became of the styles and schools, and why there are just so many inconsistencies in the stories is interesting to us-in fact several of us find it facinating.

I really don't care who could "beat up" whom. I find their relationship and the opinions of the players involved
to be the more facinating topic,

Thanks anyway

Dan

[Nathan Scott]

By the way, my teacher is bigger then your teacher .

Are you sure?

http://pacificnet.net/~nscott/ghost_warrior.jpg

:)

[Cady Goldfield]

Um.... Nathan,

I'm not sure you can count the horse in the overall height and weight measurement...

[Dan Harden]

HAH!!

Ghost warrior!
I have that tape. and I remember that scene on the mountain pass. Obata looked great.

Remember the close up in the weapons shop.
when they guy apraising it holds up the sword Hoo wha!
what a beauty. A kobyashi work. I think he also made the Tachi that Obata used yes?
The flash backs, and the Japanese scenes were beautiful.
Him waking and sipping sake with the girl.
The warriors walking through the snow when they captured the girl.
Yoshi's attack from under the pine boughs in mid winter. What a riot of color and texture.
Obatas challenge in the snow (minus the silly spear twirling) had such wonderful backdrop, and so many wonderful angles and colors, it could have made mounted prints.
The rest of the movie, (minus the noodle shop guy when he calls him Mifune) was a disaster of cheesecake acting.
It was sad really, the director seemed to have a great sense for lighting and scene set up but the actors were horrible.
Well...... the guy in the lead was good. His rolling draw and cut from Iaigoshi in the hospital would have made any Iai guy proud.

I wonder how many Spotted Obata as the bodyguard/ doorman in the girls hotel in "Rising Sun"
or the one who delivered the tanto to the gangster at the farm house in "Black rain"
Hopefully some day he'll get talking parts.
Is he that quite in the dojo Nathan?

Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

Nathan,

Didn't Obata-san get to grunt a bit in "Ninja Turtles"? Doesn't that qualify as a speaking role?

Dan,

Did you check your e-mail this a.m.?

[Nathan Scott]

I'm not sure you can count the horse in the overall height and weight measurement...


Damn!

Yes, Kobayashi is the swordsmith that Obata sensei used to test for. I've played with a couple of Obata sensei's (and have one of his wakizashi's myself), and they are pretty nice blades.

Dan, your evaluation of Ghost Warrior is spot on! Obata sensei said that they did not know much about the Japanese element of it, so the scene in the antique shop also features Obata sensei's jinbaori in the background. There were a few things like that I guess. Like you said, it was a potentially interesting concept, ruined by really bad acting. The beginning is awesome though.

Unfortunately, Obata sensei's command of English is not impressive enough to warrant much in the way of speaking roles. So he is the right hand man to the bad guy in many movies, including "The Hunted" and "Showdown in Little Tokyo".

I recently uploaded a bunch of new and old photos to our photo gallery, if anyone's curious:

http://www.shinkendo.com/pics.html

Sorry to be dragging this perfectly good thread so far askew.

PS. No, he is NOT that quiet in the dojo! The walls shake (along with most the students) when he gets upset, and his kiai seems to blow your hair back. Zoinks.

[Jyri]

Hi,

New interesting article available in our homepage!!

Memories of Hisa san - Written by Yutaka Amatsu (8 dan) of Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai

http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

The article is based on the Amatsu sensei's interview in the Japanese Aiki News (#129.) magazine. Amatsu sensei kindly rewrote the same story in English and gave us permission to publish it on the Fudoshin homepage. This is not exact translation of the Japanese article and we don't know how much it differs from the Japanese one.


Jyri Lamminmaki
Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai, Finland

[Brian Griffin]

My favorite quote from the article:
by Yutaka Amatsu (hiden 8-dan) of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai

I prefer judo...

[MarkF]

It seems that while he may have preferred judo, he preferred a teacher in something else. I don't know much about it, but generally, if people chose the teacher and not the art, there may have been more qualified teachers today.

That said, I agree with the remark concerning judo.

Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Hmmm, interesting articles.

After reading the two articles by Amatsu s., it doesn't sound as though there is much room for any of the other seniors in the Takumakai, such as Hakaru Mori, current Takumakai Somucho, and Kawabe Takeshi, Kyoju Dairi.

I have to say that a few points do not sound quite right. To the best of my knowledge, Takeda Sokaku did not issue any dan rankings to anyone. So Ueshiba Morihei would not have received a dan rank from Sokaku s., and also held the certification of goshin'yo no te, which is higher than the hiden, as well as kyoju dairi.

It is interesting to read that Amatsu s. also contests that Sokaku s. just showed up there, even though Hisa s. wrote in the Shinbudo article that he had invited him to come.

Also I'm curious if groups like the Takumakai and DR mainline are either studying Ono-ha itto ryu from a licensed instructor of the ryu, or if one of they are licensed under the current headmaster of Ono-ha itto ryu to teach the tradition independently? If not, it might be proper to refer to the art as something else, out of respect for the Ono-ha itto ryu.

There was some interesting points in the article by Amatsu s. though.

Thanks for posting the link.

[Arman]

I've always been curious about the Takumakai's style of shomenuchi. Anyone know why the uke's strikes in such kata as ippon dori, karaminage, etc. are back-hand strikes (the hand is brought back across the upper neck/face and the strike is executed like a a back-hand knife strike), rather than the typical over-head shomenuchi?

Thanks for any input.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

[Quintin]

Dear Mr Lamminmaki, thank you for making us aware of Amatsu sensei`s article...Very interesting stuff...I was wondering how often the senior members of the Takumakai get to travel to Helsinki ??? Do some of the other members also come along.???? Do you have major verbal communication problems ???? Just a few small queries...Thanks again..Quintin

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Quintin,

Welcome to e-budo!

Please observe the rules that you read when signing up here and provide your full, real name in either your login name or in the "signature" option found in your preferences. Feel free to PM me if you have problems setting this up.

This is required for all postings at e-budo.

Thanks,

[Dan Harden]

"I prefer Judo"

Hey Mark
Be smart-do both

I have never underestimated Judo
be wise-don't underestimate DR. There is a whole lot there once you get out of Kata.

cheers
Dan

[Quintin]

Dear Mr Scott and everyone...Sorry for the breach in the rules, and I hope I now have it sorted out..Quintin

[Quintin]

Mr Partamian...Through-out my limited training with the Takumakai, I have always been taught to give Shoumen Uchi as a strict over-head strike...I am usually corrected if my Shoumen Uchi tends to be a lazy Yokomen Uchi...At my dojo they teach me to strike for the crown of the head... Sometimes we use a bokuto for this over-head practice, but I guess it can be applied for a beer bottle or what-ever...I hope this has been usefull...Quintin

[Arman]

Quintin,

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, I'm still confused. I have scene both video and print of Kawabe Takeshi performing ippondori, karaminage, etc., and the uke clearly strikes with what looks like a back-hand overhead strike (still aimed to the top of nage's head) instead of your typical straight-downward overhead strike. It may be just a stylized difference, or I may just be misinterpreting what I am seeing.

Thanks again,

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group
Maryland

[Jyrki]

Arman,

I am a member of Takumakai and a direct student of Kawabe sensei. We have a Takumakai dojo in Helsinki, Finland. Our Japanese teachers - Kawabe, Mori, Amatsu, Umei etc. - visit Helsinki about three times a year. This year (just like every year) I will spend with some other members of our dojo two months in Osaka practicing Daitoryu.

I was living in Tokyo 1996-1997 about one year. At that time I practiced Daitoryu in Kondo senseis dojo in Katsushikaku near Shin Koiwa station 3 times a week for one year. I had a letter of recommendation from Takumakai. My excellent American training partners included Derek Steel, Mark Sumi and Scott Vogeley. Derek is still living in Tokyo while other two has returned back to USA.

Because I have practiced both in Takumakai and with Kondo sensei, I think that I know something about the differences between the two branches of Daitoryu.

Takeda Tokimune sensei, previous head of the Takeda family, combined Daitoryu and Ono-ha Ittoryu kenjutsu from the Aizu martial curriculum to form Aikibudo. In your post you referred to shoumen uchi in ippondori technique. In Kondo senseis dojo shoumen uchi, when you are attacking, is an overhead strike with katana.

As you know ippondori is the first waza in Daitoryu (both in Shoden 118 kajou ura-omote which is also called hiden mokuroku, and also in Takumakai Shooden which includes about 600 original daitoryu techniques). In Ono-ha Ittoryu kenjutsu curriculum the first waza is called hitotsugachi. In this waza you make a technique called kiri otoshi where men facing each other strike shoumen uchi at the same time. Timing in this technique is quite difficult to learn. These first techniques of Daitoryu and Ono-ha ittoryu are quite similar. In Kondo senseis dojo shoumen uchi resembles closely shoumen uchi of Ono-ha Ittoryu.

In Takumakai we too use this kind of shoumen uchi. In addition we have another kind of shoumen uchi, which is done by kodachi. Sokaku Takeda carried kodachi with him everywhere. He also taught Daitoryu using kodachi. Takuma Hisa received the only menkyu kaiden from Sokaku Takeda. Kawabe sensei is a student of Takuma Hisa. Kawabe senseis shoumen uchi you saw in that video is shoumen uchi with kodachi.

You interpreted this attack in your post as a backhand knife strike but it is in fact a kodachi strike. When attacking with kodachi you first draw blade out from the scabbard, which is tucked under your belt. After that you strike immediately - just like in battojutsu or iaido. Striking with kodachi is different than striking with katana. When you strike shoumen uchi with kodachi it is a thrusting and cutting motion where you hit the forehead or face of you opponent with almost the tip of the blade. That is why it looks different than striking with katana.

I hope you found this explanation helpful.

O genki de,

Jyrki Rytila
Takumakai Finland
jyrki.rytila@shh.fi

[Arman]

Jyrki,

Thanks for the post! Now it makes sense to me. While I of course knew the shomenuchi in ippondori that we do is a sword strike, I did not know the Takumakai version included one with a kodachi strike. Very interesting!

As you know, Derek is still there. He trained with us as well while we were at the Shimbukan. Mark Sumi has left, and so has Scott Vogeley. Derek accompanies Kondo Sensei and translates for him on his seminar trips to our study group. He should also be accompanying Kondo Sensei at the Aiki Expo next week in Las Vegas.

Again, Jyrki, thanks for your comments. If I ever just happen to be in your area, I would love to visit your dojo. If you ever make it over to the East Coast of the USA, drop me a line.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group
Maryland

[jim w.]

Hello to All, I have no experiance in Aikijujutsu, other than what I have read. I realize that there are few dojos that teach this outside of Japan. I was hoping that someone from this forum might have studied the Takumakai style of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. If so, what are the differences between this style and others? Any info. regarding your training, instructors, etc. would be welcome.

[Jyri]

There are not many Takumakai dojos outside Japan. My understanding is that there are only 3 active dojos outside Japan at the moment (in Finland, New York and Australia).

Please see this page
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/dwalter/takuma-kai/
for more information about possible Takumakai club in Florida (classes suspended at the moment).

I think that biggest difference between Takumakai and other Daitoryu associations is that Takumakai was founded by a group of people, not just by one people. There are 9 Kyoju Dairi teachers in Takumakai and other very respected teachers as well. They all have own dojo(s) and own unique way of doing Daitoryu techniques. So, it is very difficult to say what is Takumakai’s technique and what is not. For that reason, Takumakai has larger variation of techniques and teachings styles that other Daitoryu groups that were founded and ruled strictly by one person.

Takumakai was founded by students of Takuma Hisa and Heizaburo Nagatsu. However, some these students were also students of Tokimune Takeda. So, today in Takumakai you can find Sokaku Takeda’s techniques that are passed on by these three teachers.


Jyri Lamminmaki
Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai, Finland
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

[jim w.]

Jyri,

Thanks for the information. I was not able to locate this thread with a search, but Nathan Scott was nice enough to locate it and stick my post at the end of it. I am hoping to begin training in Takumakai next year, but I would like to find out as much as possible before then. After reading the posts it is good to see that the style is still active, and that students and teachers are traveling back and forth to train.

At this time I am a student of Walter Sensei, but in Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu, not Takumakai. Since Sensei has very limited time (full time job,night student,family,etc.), I consider myself very fortunate that he takes the time to instruct me in Yagyu. I have so many questions about Yagyu, that I don't want to even ask him questions about anything else. I was hoping to use the forums for this. Hopefully next year there will be a Takumakai class offered.

I'm glad I have your webpage now, was unable to find it before I posted here. You are lucky to have instructors that visit from Japan, and that you can train over there as well. Sensei is leaving for Japan also, and I believe he may be taking a student with him. I don't feel my Yagyu skill has reached a level for me to do this yet, but I would like to go next year.

I will continue to visit the forum and try to pick up any information I can!
Thanks again, jim watson.

[Gary Gabelhouse]

Hi Jim,

I have studied Daitoryu Aikijujitsu under Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei since 1994. I do at least yearly visits for intensive training (5-6 hours a day every day for nearly a month) and have had Sensei and his senior students do seminars here in the USA.

Ohgami-Sensei lives in Nishinomiya and was a senior student of Takuma Hisa-Sensei. Ohgami-Sensei began studying under Takuma Hisa in 1961, I believe. He was one of those who founded the Takumakai. Sometime in the early 70's, I think, Ohgami-Sensei formed his own dojo, the Daibukan (google Daibukan and you'll find their website) which was named so by Takuma Hisa.

Since I have not studied Aikijujitsu under anyone else other than Ohgami-Sensei, I cannot speak definitively as to Takumakai vs. other Daitoryu techniques. I know I have seen demonstrations of what was called Aikijujitsu, but found them very dissimilar to the Daitoryu Aikijujitsu I practice.

The Lyons Press is publishing the English version of Ohgami-Sensei's book, "In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" next autumn (2004). I could perhaps copy some of my training tapes (Sensei videos much of our training when I go back so I have it to fall back on when I get back stateside). However, Daitoryu, imo, cannot be "learned" via video--however, if you already "have done" the techniques under Sensei, one can "refresh one's memory" via video--just my opinion. Perhaps I am slow ;-)

Best!
Gary Gabelhouse

;)

[Rodrigo Kong]

Hello Jim,

In Jyri's last post he wrote about the many skilled teachers in Takumakai and their various methods. I have found this to be instrumental in our study of Daito-Ryu. Being exposed to a number of variations for a particular technique has helped our group learn the basics of the art on a theoretical as well as mechanical level. I think this is a great asset of Takumakai.

[don]

Hey, guys!

Any seminars forthcoming? (Really enjoyed Kawabe's...)

Thanks.

[Nathan Scott]

Guys,

Best of luck in your pursuit of DR Takumakai. I hope appropriate representatives are patiently sought and selected. Just say NO to open seminars! ;)

Mr. Gabelhouse,

Please post back here when Ogami Sensei's book is published.

Regards,

[jim w.]

Hi Gary,

You seem to be a man of few words ( 2 posts in 3 years), but I'm glad you decided to say a few here.
You train in the way most of us would like to, but cannot. You get about as many hours of training in that one month than most get in a year! I would also be interested in a seminar in 2004 if one is offered, as well as a copy of Ogami Sensei's book. I am lucky in that my Sensei seems to encourage students going to seminars, as he himself does (we were both at the Orlando Tai Kai a few weeks ago , although I was just a spectator).
Your Sensei videotaping your training to bring back to the U.S. is
a great idea, I'm almost surprised he does this, it shows an open mind on his part (not all high ranking instructors are like this, as you are probably aware). I agree that martial arts cannot be 'learned' from video, but they do come in handy if you know the style.

Hello Rodrigo, I agree, you just can't have too many good teachers.
Are you part of that 'Active Dojo' that is in NY ? (Jyri post)

Thanks for the response guys.

[Rodrigo Kong]

Jim:

Yes, I am a part of the "active dojo" in New York. I should make a clear distinction. We are a dokoukai (study group), not a branch shibu. We have our own dojo, but I it is more correct to refer to us as a dokoukai (unless you're talking about the actual space). We have been practicing regularly for about five years.

I have met with your teacher Mr. David Walter on a few occasions in Japan and in the US. I hope your training is going well!

[louis]

nathan:

as one who is new to this forum, i was wondering if you could clarify your objections to open seminars. admittedly i've only participated in one, and so perhaps do not have the breadth of experience to make a strong claim either for or against such seminars, but based on that one experience, i wouldn't want to rule out a future one a priori.

thanks,
louis colombo

[Nathan Scott]

Sure.

Do me a favor and read through these threads a bit first though:

AJJ and Secrecy (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20633)

Seminars: what is the function? (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2274)

Basically, open seminars equals selling techniques to non-members for them to use as they like. Participants of open seminars tend to not join the group, but just take what they can away from it, and a photo with the teacher if possible.

From my experience, it is not the way to go if you want to spread an artform while at the same time maintaining control of the art.

Why not just offer a public demonstration prior to training, and then accept new members for the seminar if they join the group first? Why do non-members NEED to try it first? Something to think about.

Regards,

[soc]

Greetings,

What is the best way to find or look up the name of students under Hisa Sensei? I am interested in finding out more information about my instructor's sensei and how he fits in the whole Daito ryu picture.

Apparently he had students in NY and Cali so he should be well known to this board I would assume.

Thanks

[Gary Gabelhouse]

Hello,

There appears not to be an abundance of Daitoryu teachers here stateside. My linneage is of the Hisa Line:

Sokaku Takeda--Takuma Hisa--Kenkichi Ohgami--Me

My teacher was one of the founders of the Takuma Kai and is a very senior Daitoryu teacher. Many of today's seniors, like Okabayashi-Sensei were Ohgami's students back in the 70's.

Perhaps I could help determine your teacher's teacher's place in Daitoryu. I am going back to Nishinomiya in a couple of weeks to train with Ohgami-Sensei. If we cannot establish a place for your linneage stateside, I could ask of my Sensei in Japan.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

[soc]

Then could you tell me if anyone knows of a kanji hosokawa. Apparently he recently suffered a heart attack and died. ??? From what I understand he studied under Hisa sensei. Thanks

[Jyri]

Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai – Helsinki Taikai 2005

Ten years ago, in summer 1995, two members of Fudoshin club from Helsinki went first time to Japan to practice Daitoryu aikijujutsu. This was the start of Daitoryu in Finland. Since then, several members of Fudoshin club have been practicing Daitoryu in Japan every year, from 2 weeks to 3 months periods. Takumakai’s teachers have visited Finland 2-3 times every year. Fudoshin club is now the biggest Takumakai’s dojo outside Japan and still the only place in Europe to practice Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai.

To celebrate these 10 years of Daitoryu in Finland, we are organizing a Taikai and free public demonstration in Helsinki. Around 25 teachers and members of Takumakai from Japan will join the demonstration, including:
Shomucho Hakaru Mori
Shihan Takeshi Kawabe
Shihan Kyohiro Kobayashi

Also some members from Takumakai’s New York and Australian branches are joining the demonstration.

Location: Helsinki, Finland
Valkoinen Sali, Aleksanterinkatu 16-18
Date: 3.7.2005
Time: 13.00-17.00
Free entrance

Welcome!

www.daitoryu.fi
Jyri Lamminmaki

[Charles_1]

Hello and thank you for your time does anyone here have a email address or other contact information for Yutaka Amatsu sensei .
He is a Great teacher of Daito Ryu .
Thank you
Charles scott

[jdostie]

Hello and thank you for your time does anyone here have a email address or other contact information for Yutaka Amatsu sensei .
He is a Great teacher of Daito Ryu .
Thank you
Charles scott


I don't know if it's still good, but I just found this via a quick search.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/e_pro.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/e_main.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/

Hope that helps.

[Charles_1]

No that email is very old and does not work anymore .
Thank you
Charles Scott

[Charles_1]

thanks for the help
charles scott

[john_lord_b3]

Sorry for ressurecting a long-dead thread.. but I am wondering about the news regarding people of Daito-ryu Takumakai. The main website here

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm06.htm

seems to never been updated for, like, 7 years?

I heard that Mr. Kawabe is the only shihan who still actively teaching Daito-ryu professionally these days?

BTW, Australia is not all that far away from Indonesia, so maybe one day I can visit the Takumakai Australia branch, if they are still active. I practice a form of Hakko-ryu, so watching Daito-ryu 'cousins' practice their art should be very interesting.

Many thanks!

[john_lord_b3]

Amatsu sensei is from the Takumakai, so perhaps the Takumakai knows how to contact him. The Daito-ryu Australia branch regularly hosts Mr. Kawabe who is now 8th Dan and an official instructor of the Takumakai. You can visit their page here

http://www.aikiaustralia.com.au/

and maybe they can help you to contact the Takumakai and find Mr. Amatsu.

[Grant Periott]

Hi John,
(this post is very belated but...)you are most welcome to visit Takumakai Australia at either in Victoria at Geelong, Ballarat or in QLD on the Gold Coast. Takumakai DRAJJ Australia is growing all be it very slowly. We make a point of regularly visiting Japan and have Kawabe and other senseis visit Australia. Kawabe visits Oz once a year. Perhaps if you were to visit it might be good to coincide with Kawabe sensei's visit.

[Grant Periott]

Hi if you are interested in contacting Amatsu sensei try going to the Fudoshin website and contact Jyri. The Finland Dojo have had the most contact with Amatsu Sensei. He has not been involved with the Australian Branch of Takumakai.

Good luck

Grant

[john_lord_b3]

Thank you Perriott san for the kind invitation. I will surely take the chance to visit your Dojo one day. BTW, you are also very much welcome to visit our Dojo in Jakarta, Indonesia. I have an Australian student with me right now, a journalist for Australian Financial times. I am sure we will have a great time comparing our Jujutsu techniques.

[Kendoguy9]

Hello all,

I just watched a really good documentary on the Takumakai found here: http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aikido/videos/documentary-on-daito-ryu-aiki-jujutsu-takumakai.html

Enjoy!

[Jose Garrido]

Nice link,thanks Chris.

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

I came across this interview, and thought I'd pass it on.

Interview with Kobayashi Kiyohiro, Manager of the Takumakai (http://www.guillaumeerard.com/daito-ryu-aiki-jujutsu/articles/interview-with-kobayashi-kiyohiro-sensei-manager-of-the-takumakai)

Here is one part I found interesting:

Actually, Daito-ryu was quite disordered so Takeda Tokimune Senseï [Editor's note: Takeda Sokaku's son] told to his father: "We should classify the techniques a bit better". Ueshiba Sensei for example had indeed been teaching using the syllabus that we know today: "Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo..." and if we look at Yoshinkan, it was also these four techniques built and organized in a vertical manner. But Ueshiba's techniques were a bit different so Tokimune said to his father: "Father, we should give back Ikkajo, its essence, and resume the 118 kihon. Wouldn't it be beneficial? What do you think?" His father answered: "Some of my students have already obtained the Kyoju-dairi [Editor's note: teaching certification], I don't have much more to teach them, isn't it enough? Don't they know enough?" Nevertheless, changes were adopted in the Takumakai and this began the next stage of teaching.

I found it interesting that Tokimune had been looking at the example of Ueshiba Sensei's teaching structure as a guide for what ended up being his DR Aikibudo Hiden Mokuroku format. I wonder about his comment regarding "bringing back the 118 kihon" though.

Regards,

[Cliff Judge]

Hi all,

I came across this interview, and thought I'd pass it on.

Interview with Kobayashi Kiyohiro, Manager of the Takumakai (http://www.guillaumeerard.com/daito-ryu-aiki-jujutsu/articles/interview-with-kobayashi-kiyohiro-sensei-manager-of-the-takumakai)

Here is one part I found interesting:



I found it interesting that Tokimune had been looking at the example of Ueshiba Sensei's teaching structure as a guide for what ended up being his DR Aikibudo Hiden Mokuroku format. I wonder about his comment regarding "bringing back the 118 kihon" though.

Regards,

Well there are 118 techniques in the Hiden Mokuroku, right? So he would seem to be talking about that.

My personal belief on this subject is that in the 30s, Takeda was all over the place. I think some of the other stuff (apart from the passages you have posted) I have read about the Asahi Shimbun era was that Ueshiba and Takeda both were just getting up in front of class and doing fairly spontaneous techniques, and very few of the students on the mat could follow or connect anything to anything else.

Tokimune I see as a more down to earth fellow than his father, or Ueshiba, or probably any of the other prominent students of Sokaku, and this is basically him saying "why don't we just teach this material in a structured fashion, kata by kata?"

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I realize that the Hiden Mokuroku states that it consists of 118 techniques, but here are the problems I run into to:

1) None of Sokaku's students claimed to have been taught the techniques through referencing the scrolls. Though some - or all - of the Hiden Mokuroku techniques may have been taught to the most senior of his students over time, Sokaku could not read, and even if he could, the descriptions of the techniques on the scrolls are pretty hard to follow even if you could read, and already knew the techniques.

2) Even if you did try to teach from the scrolls, it would be troublesome. If you actually count the number of techniques that are listed in the Hiden Mokuroku, there are only 53 techniques written out. Even if you assume the techniques to have an omote & ura version, the numbers still don't quite add up. Many have tried to do the math on how the number 118 could have been derived from the description on the scroll, and none that I have heard of have come up with anything believable.

3) Sagawa believed that the number 118 was an arbitrary number that "sounded good", based on the numerology found in Buddhism, rather than a literal number of techniques. Whether he was right or not, his statement proves that he was not taught a set of "118" techniques as a part of his basic instruction, and he was one of Sokaku's most long-term students.

4) Interviews state that Sokaku awarded the Hiden Mokuroku after 28-30 practices (2-3 hours long each). If he were to try to teach 118 techniques during that period, he would have to teach about 4 waza per keiko, or, 1 new waza every 30 minutes. A possible scenario, but not one that would likely produce much more than a superficial memory of the techniques at best. Of course, after Tokimune completely restructured his Hiden Mokuroku to have 118 techniques (ikkajo through gokajo), which he made the completion of the Hiden Mokuroku 5th Dan level, so I'm sure the time period under him changed from one month to something like 10-20 yrs.

All in all, it appears that Sokaku's award of the Hiden Mokuroku was strictly a level of initiation. If that's the case, the "118" techniques would have symbolized a graduation of a section of the curriculum, rather than perhaps a perfect understanding of every technique listed (and not listed).

The only reference to literally 118 techniques has always come from Tokimune Sensei, who formulated the Aikibudo structure all on his own. I agree that he was clearly trying to transmit the art in a more organized manner, but the reference in this interview to *resume* teaching the "118 basics" I find puzzling, since none of the instructors senior to Tokimune claim to have been taught in this way. It makes me wonder if the original structure of Daito-ryu, possibly organized by Sokaku and Saigo Tanomo (who is believed to have possibly written the original Daito-ryu scrolls) in the late 19th century could have been based on a structure quite different than what Sokaku ended up teaching after leaving Aizu? In other words, in the beginning there may have been a fairly logical technical structure that was more and more abandoned in Sokaku's later years.

In any event, I've never heard of anyone ever understanding how the number "118" was reached either way.

As far as Takumakai goes, if I understand correctly, the 118 "Shoden" waza were introduced to the Takumakai curriculum by Okabayashi Shogen, who learned them from Takeda Tokimune (Aikibudo). They state that the scroll techniques were already "dated" when Takeda Sokaku learned them, and that what Sokaku taught to Hisa was more advanced than what is on the scrolls. If that's true, then maybe Tokimune was trying to revive the family structure that existed prior to Sokaku learning the methods?

Regards,

[Cliff Judge]

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I realize that the Hiden Mokuroku states that it consists of 118 techniques, but here are the problems I run into to:

1) None of Sokaku's students claimed to have been taught the techniques through referencing the scrolls. Though some - or all - of the Hiden Mokuroku techniques may have been taught to the most senior of his students over time, Sokaku could not read, and even if he could, the descriptions of the techniques on the scrolls are pretty hard to follow even if you could read, and already knew the techniques.

2) Even if you did try to teach from the scrolls, it would be troublesome. If you actually count the number of techniques that are listed in the Hiden Mokuroku, there are only 53 techniques written out. Even if you assume the techniques to have an omote & ura version, the numbers still don't quite add up. Many have tried to do the math on how the number 118 could have been derived from the description on the scroll, and none that I have heard of have come up with anything believable.

3) Sagawa believed that the number 118 was an arbitrary number that "sounded good", based on the numerology found in Buddhism, rather than a literal number of techniques. Whether he was right or not, his statement proves that he was not taught a set of "118" techniques as a part of his basic instruction, and he was one of Sokaku's most long-term students.

4) Interviews state that Sokaku awarded the Hiden Mokuroku after 28-30 practices (2-3 hours long each). If he were to try to teach 118 techniques during that period, he would have to teach about 4 waza per keiko, or, 1 new waza every 30 minutes. A possible scenario, but not one that would likely produce much more than a superficial memory of the techniques at best. Of course, after Tokimune completely restructured his Hiden Mokuroku to have 118 techniques (ikkajo through gokajo), which he made the completion of the Hiden Mokuroku 5th Dan level, so I'm sure the time period under him changed from one month to something like 10-20 yrs.

All in all, it appears that Sokaku's award of the Hiden Mokuroku was strictly a level of initiation. If that's the case, the "118" techniques would have symbolized a graduation of a section of the curriculum, rather than perhaps a perfect understanding of every technique listed (and not listed).

The only reference to literally 118 techniques has always come from Tokimune Sensei, who formulated the Aikibudo structure all on his own. I agree that he was clearly trying to transmit the art in a more organized manner, but the reference in this interview to *resume* teaching the "118 basics" I find puzzling, since none of the instructors senior to Tokimune claim to have been taught in this way. It makes me wonder if the original structure of Daito-ryu, possibly organized by Sokaku and Saigo Tanomo (who is believed to have possibly written the original Daito-ryu scrolls) in the late 19th century could have been based on a structure quite different than what Sokaku ended up teaching after leaving Aizu? In other words, in the beginning there may have been a fairly logical technical structure that was more and more abandoned in Sokaku's later years.

In any event, I've never heard of anyone ever understanding how the number "118" was reached either way.

As far as Takumakai goes, if I understand correctly, the 118 "Shoden" waza were introduced to the Takumakai curriculum by Okabayashi Shogen, who learned them from Takeda Tokimune (Aikibudo). They state that the scroll techniques were already "dated" when Takeda Sokaku learned them, and that what Sokaku taught to Hisa was more advanced than what is on the scrolls. If that's true, then maybe Tokimune was trying to revive the family structure that existed prior to Sokaku learning the methods?

Regards,

For what is it worth, the special number is actually 108 - that's the number of malas on a rosary. A lot of koryu systems count their number of kata as 108. So the number 118 has always been a head-scratcher to me...."118 + 10" is all I can really imagine. I've asked Dr. Hall about 118 and he corrected me that 108 was the magic number. So I think Sagawa was either wrong about 118 being a significant Buddhist number or he was intentionally misleading to the outsiders. :)

The received mythos of Daito ryu certainly supports the idea that Sokaku did not teach the Hiden Mokuroku to Sagawa, Horikawa, and other important Taisho / early Showa students. He gave them secret inner teachings and warned them against spreading them around too freely...this comes up again and again in interviews with everybody who is or was anybody in any of the branches of Daito ryu. (And what deification and clamor to access these secret inner teachings, particularly in the Aikido community, this has caused...). To the masses he gave a seemingly endless array of techniques, and charged a la carte!

Sokaku Takeda was certainly not a man of letters, and I think your idea that he was awarding a scroll called the Hiden Mokuroku to certify that a student had achieved a certain level (or perhaps that they had earned a certain level of trust or acceptance by the man) without much concern for what was actually written on them, has a lot of merit. At one point he gave a Yagyu Shinkage ryu scroll to Ueshiba....which is not something either of them trained in. Evidence is there that he thought the scrolls looked nice and had pretty writing, and the meaning of it was something that was between him and the recipient and none of anyone else's business.

But I don't think these issues are particularly important. The central question really seems to be: What IS Daito ryu actually? In particular, did Tokimune make up the 118 techniques of the Hiden Mokuroku, and the hundred or so techniques of the upper level scrolls? Were they things that Sokaku performed only once - spontaneously, to demonstrate a principle - that his son or another one of his students took pains (a silly endeavor, since he was charging per technique, right?) to preserve?

Or were these an original structure of Daito ryu that Sokaku mastered and then moved beyond? Sokaku could have learned them "from the scrolls" as you say, mastered them immediately, and then extracted principles from them, which he taught to selected students...perhaps the solo and paired exercises to build an "aiki body" that are the new hotness these days. Demonstrating these principles in large seminar format as Sokaku did would have certainly been spectacular.

But Tokimune, I don't think, had any desire to roam the country like his father did, maintaining shallow relationships with thousands of students. But still - did Tokimune teach what he was taught? Or did he develop the curriculum of mainline Daito ryu? Did he develop the curriculum by himself or with the assistance of Takuma and others, who maybe let him take the credit?

The point you make about Saigo Tanomo is really interesting - my reading of Ellis Amdur's notes on the subject are that Sokaku and Takeda didn't spend enough time with Tanomo to receive a lot of in-depth training - possibly not enough to be taught 118 techniques plus another hundred. And that Tanomo didn't seem to lead the type of life to allow him to be a master of jujutsu anyway. I don't know if I buy the second part, but the first part raises an interesting question: did Tokimune have any exposure to Tanomo?

For my part, I think if Tokimune developed the curriculum of mainline Daito ryu himself then he is the true genius of the big DR guys and he's been getting short shrift for a long time. They really are brilliant kata, particularly at the low levels. But I certainly find the idea that the curriculum may actually be very old really intriguing.

[DDATFUS]

At one point he gave a Yagyu Shinkage ryu scroll to Ueshiba....which is not something either of them trained in.

Actually, Ueshiba (and possibly some of his students) trained in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu under Gejo Kosaburo. Ueshiba apparently taught one of his students a version of aiki-ken that consisted of three kata, clearly derived from the Sankaku set of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Meik Skoss has seen these kata practiced and commented that while they were clearly derived from Yagyu, the Shinkage Ryu has essentially been "scooped out" of the forms and replaced with aikido principles. I think that this is discussed in Hidden in Plain Sight in the chapter on aiki weapons.

Ueshiba apparently came to know Gejo through Takeda Sokaku, who was close friends with Gejo. I'm told that the old Yagyu-style fukuro shinai that is on display at Kondo Sensei's dojo once belonged to Gejo. I have no idea if Takeda ever did any training in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but as an accomplished swordsman he was probably at least familiar with what his friend was teaching.

Having said all of that, the Yagyu scroll he gave Ueshiba-- which apparently contains the Sankaku set-- is still a mystery.

[Cliff Judge]

I thought the shinai in Kondo Sensei's dojo were actually Admiral Takeshita's? I didn't have a chance to ask when I was there.

I will double-check this when I get home but I thought that Gejo was a student of Ueshiba's and therefore a relationship where Ueshiba trained under Gejo was impossible, which is not to say that Ueshiba couldn't have trained with him or watched while he taught his students. The point matters because the essence of a ryu obviously only flows downhill. :D

[Nathan Scott]

Hi guys,

For what is it worth, the special number is actually 108...

Correct. My bad, I thought Sagawa mentioned something about Buddhism in his argument, but it looks like what he said specifically about this was (according to the book Tomei na Chikara):

"Takeda Sensei recorded in the transmission scrolls numbers like, “Hyakuju-hakkajo” (118 techniques), “Hachiju-shikajo” (84 techniques), “Sanju-rokkajo” (36 techniques), etc., because numbers like 118, 84, and 36 are considered historically to be numbers of good fortune. Therefore, I don’t believe such numbers coincide literally with the number of techniques often assumed to be associated with these scrolls."

Usually lucky numbers in Japan originate from Chinese zodiac or fengshui, and are often mixed in with Buddhist teachings as well, but I don't know what basis these numbers are for being considered lucky.

The received mythos of Daito ryu certainly supports the idea that Sokaku did not teach the Hiden Mokuroku to Sagawa, Horikawa, and other important Taisho / early Showa students.

Maybe not "from the scroll", but I've heard that, for example, Budo Renshu *contains* the traditional Hiden Mokuroku techniques, even though Budo Renshu contains an additional number of techniques (166) and doesn't follow the exact same ordering. Apparently Ueshiba later awarded Budo Renshu in a manner similar to a first level of initiation document, similar to the Hiden Mokuroku. Tokimune is said to have given names to and re-organized the techniques of the Hiden Mokuroku in a more logical order, and apparently filled in the "missing" techniques in order to make is 118. But I haven't yet tried to analyze how closely the Aikibudo 118 waza are to the traditional Hiden Mokuroku waza. There is clearly cross-over between Tokimune's techniques and the techniques of other DR branches, but there is also quite a bit that is pretty different. Of course, as you say, I'm sure the techniques are well worth learning either way. It's just a matter of sorting out what their origins are and how they relate to the traditional system.

To the masses he gave a seemingly endless array of techniques, and charged a la carte!

Yep. The method of transmission of the art appears to be based on the repetitive study of a large number of techniques. Even if you take Sokaku out of the mix, there is still an unusually large curriculum of kata/waza as contained in the original scrolls compared to other koryu.

At one point [Sokaku] gave a Yagyu Shinkage ryu scroll to Ueshiba....which is not something either of them trained in. Evidence is there that he thought the scrolls looked nice and had pretty writing, and the meaning of it was something that was between him and the recipient and none of anyone else's business.

Really, we don't know for a fact whether Sokaku or Ueshiba ever enrolled in YSR or trained to any level in any of the techniques. What I think we do know is that Sokaku, for whatever reason, didn't seem to have much respect for YSR. I suspect this is from first hand experience, because I don't think there is any way that he would have studied Itto-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu, and Kyoshin meichi-ryu, then gone on a musha shugyo, and not ever step into a YSR dojo at some point to see what they were all about! Perhaps he dabbled in it enough to decide it wasn't the art for him (?).

On the other hand, I think it is clear that Ueshiba felt that he was missing formal exposure to swordsmanship to back up the aikiken methods he was teaching. As previously mentioned, Gejo Kosaburo is said to have taught Ueshiba two of the YSR omote-dachi, which Ueshiba modified and taught as "sho-chiku-bai" aikiken. Interestingly, the kata he was taught were specifically the same ones listed on his scroll from Takeda, so he was probably trying to figure out (or remember) how to do them so the document / claim of koryu kenjutsu experience would not appear groundless.

BTW, much is now known about this YSR scroll. A photograph of it was reproduced in some Japanese publication, and Josh Reyer of Owari YSR did a great job of analyzing the contents. It is online somewhere, but I forget where I saw it at right now. The short of it is, Sokaku issued Ueshiba an Edo YSR document called the "Shinrikyo" (Shoe Offering Bridge), which is an introductory document that quotes a section of the Yagyu Heiho Kadensho, and basically was issued to indicate proof of membership in the art. The lineage on Ueshiba's scroll skips "over ten generations in the old Aizu domain" to Takeda Sokaku, which is more than weird as far as credibility of issuance goes (there is no lineage to backup Sokaku's authority to issue the document). But in any event, I think it is safe to presume that Sokaku was asked to provide Ueshiba with some kind of scroll that indicates membership/legitimacy in some well known form of swordsmanship. Perhaps Sokaku felt more comfortable providing that from an art that he didn't study seriously, than issue an "honorary" scroll in one of the arts he respected and spent time in.

As far as Tokimune's Aikibudo and revamped Hiden Mokuroku, who taught the methods to him, and where the methods are derived from, the short answer is - I dunno. It would make sense that students like Hisa Takuma and Admiral Takeshita, both of whom had extensive notes, could have assisted in Tokimune's collection of waza. That sounds more likely than the other theories I've heard! ;)

Sokaku may or may not have ever learned "from the scrolls" himself. I think it is safe to say that whatever he learned from Saigo Tanomo was probably not a massive number of techniques, but rather a smaller number of techniques that contained the higher principles of the art. Or, maybe Tanomo himself taught him from the scrolls, using the technical descriptions as reminders of how to do the techniques.

The point you make about Saigo Tanomo is really interesting - my reading of Ellis Amdur's notes on the subject are that Sokaku and Takeda didn't spend enough time with Tanomo to receive a lot of in-depth training - possibly not enough to be taught 118 techniques plus another hundred.

I'm not sure I agree with this, though again, I suspect the essence of the art could have been taught using a smaller number of techniques. The periods we know for sure that Sokaku was exposed to Saigo are, according to the Shinbukan (Tokimune) history:

"As for oshikiuchi he learned it for the first time from Hoshina Chikanori while studying under his mentorship at Tsutsukowake Shrine as an apprentice priest in 1876. In later years Sokaku would visit Hoshina often, including in 1898 when he spent some time at Ryozen Shrine in Fukushima prefecture, used as a dojo for esoteric practices by the Tendai Buddhist sect. There, under the supervision of Hoshina, Sokaku is said to have mastered the arts of divining time and space, the Mind's Eye and other magical powers, as well as the deepest secrets of oshikiuchi."

So, Sokaku studied off and on for periods of one year or less at a time, over a period of 22 years. I'd say it would have been possible for a martial genius like Sokaku to extract the essence of an art in that period of time - especially with all that extra time to research the previous teachings, then get corrections at later visits.

But 2,884 is the generally accepted total number of techniques in the art, and no, I don't think every single one of these techniques was taught - or should I say, practiced. The question is, how many "techniques" are unique, and how many are variations of one technique? Does left and right side count as two? Some techniques in the Hiden Mokuroku are counted this way. Point being, it would not be necessary to practice every variation, but rather, only the unique techniques, which may be considerably less.

And that Tanomo didn't seem to lead the type of life to allow him to be a master of jujutsu anyway.

I know this is a common assumption, but if you ask me, it is a pretty big one. Kind of surprising that so many have jumped on board with this big of an assumption (including Sagawa) without knowing more about him.

To begin with, Saigo Tanomo attended the Nishinkan in Aizu as a boy. There is in fact a picture of Saigo hanging up inside the Nishinkan (Saigo is still pretty famous in Aizu [Fukushima]). Samurai children would enter the Nishinkan at the age of 10 yrs old. There were five styles of swordsmanship that were taught there: Mizoguchi-ha itto-ryu kenjutsu, Shinten-ryu iaijutsu, Taishi-ryu kenjutsu, Shindo seibu-ryu, and Yasumitsu-ryu[?]; as well as two styles of jujutsu: Mizuno Shinto-ryu jujutsu & Shinmyo-ryu jujutsu. In an interview with the late Wada Shin from Aizu - kendo instructor, Mizoguchi-ha itto-ryu instructor, and nephew of Saigo Tanomo, he confirms that his uncle (Saigo Tanomo) studied Mizoguchi-ha itto-ryu. Saigo was exposed to these arts and many others, including swimming in armor, just like all the other samurai boys who attended the Nishinkan. To what level he continued to train or learn new arts after that period I have not found reference to (yet). But I think it is a pretty reckless jump to assume that he couldn't have been exposed to and understood/learned an intellectually interesting and sophisticated castle art that held some relation to his professional position. Nobody has been able to find mention of a specific castle art being taught at Edo-jo either, but do you think that means that the bodyguards there were not taught specific methods to be used inside the castle as a result? Other castles had "castle arts" by other names.

I don't know if I buy the second part, but the first part raises an interesting question: did Tokimune have any exposure to Tanomo?

Saigo died in 1903, and Tokimune was born in 1916, so no.

Anyway, just my opinions,

[Cliff Judge]

Saigo died in 1903, and Tokimune was born in 1916, so no.


Ha! That answers that. :laugh:

Thanks for taking the time to post that, Mr. Scott!

[DDATFUS]

I thought the shinai in Kondo Sensei's dojo were actually Admiral Takeshita's? I didn't have a chance to ask when I was there.

In checking my notes, I think that you're right. Oops.

The point matters because the essence of a ryu obviously only flows downhill. :D

Hmm. Maybe. :D

Really, we don't know for a fact whether Sokaku or Ueshiba ever enrolled in YSR or trained to any level in any of the techniques. What I think we do know is that Sokaku, for whatever reason, didn't seem to have much respect for YSR. I suspect this is from first hand experience, because I don't think there is any way that he would have studied Itto-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu, and Kyoshin meichi-ryu, then gone on a musha shugyo, and not ever step into a YSR dojo at some point to see what they were all about! Perhaps he dabbled in it enough to decide it wasn't the art for him (?).

This is really an interesting question, and it hinges in part on how much access he could have had to YSR. My understanding is that Yagyu Genshu (Gencho? I always get those two confused) of the Owari Yagyu line opened a dojo in Tokyo around 1913, where he taught police and military personnel of various sorts. Prior to 1913, though, I am under the impression that the Owari Yagyu were strictly based in Nagoya.

If he wasn't exposed to Owari Yagyu, the question becomes whether or not he could have been exposed to the Edo Yagyu line. According to Hall's Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts, the Edo Yagyu line had "gone into a decline and had essentially disappeared as a significant martial arts school by 1868." If Takeda had encountered an Edo line that was on its "last legs," so to speak, he might have developed a low opinion of it, especially in contrast to the extremely vigorous school that he would have known as Shinkage Ryu.

[Nathan Scott]

Hey,

I did some topical research while I was in Fukushima a few years ago, and walked out with a few notes. I didn't see any specific references to YSR in Aizu, but I did find an interesting anecdote involving Yagyu shinkage-ryu and Ono-ha itto-ryu. The only problem is, it is hard to tell where it took place, when, and who won the match. The book is about Aizu, but there are references to the Edo area as it pertained to instructors from Aizu visiting/teaching there. My guess from the context is this happened in Aizu though (my translation w/ notes in brackets):

Yagyū Gyōbu [柳生刑部; Real name = Yagyū Tomonori 柳生左門. He was a half-brother of Yagyū Jubei] and Okada Sohaku [岡田素伯] from Ono-ha Itto-ryu engaged in a sword bout. Okada had studied under Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki, and was ordered to challenge Yagyū by a superior. If Okada were to win it would raise the reputation of the Aizu clan [the outcome is not clear].

They only list one Ono-ha itto-ryu dojo in Aizu (Yonedai near Aizu Wakamatsu-jo), and this story was right after the listing. So it sounds like Okada Sohaku was a senior in OIR from this dojo in Aizu - or was an Aizu clansmen who studied OIR in Edo under Ono Tadaaki, but I'm not sure if Yagyu Gyobu spent any time in Aizu. Can't find much on either one of them.

Regards,

[Cliff Judge]

Hey,

I did some topical research while I was in Fukushima a few years ago, and walked out with a few notes. I didn't see any specific references to YSR in Aizu, but I did find an interesting anecdote involving Yagyu shinkage-ryu and Ono-ha itto-ryu. The only problem is, it is hard to tell where it took place, when, and who won the match. The book is about Aizu, but there are references to the Edo area as it pertained to instructors from Aizu visiting/teaching there. My guess from the context is this happened in Aizu though (my translation w/ notes in brackets):



They only list one Ono-ha itto-ryu dojo in Aizu (Yonedai near Aizu Wakamatsu-jo), and this story was right after the listing. So it sounds like Okada Sohaku was a senior in OIR from this dojo in Aizu - or was an Aizu clansmen who studied OIR in Edo under Ono Tadaaki, but I'm not sure if Yagyu Gyobu spent any time in Aizu. Can't find much on either one of them.

Regards,

That is AWESOME. I've always said that there is several dissertations' worth of research in who dueled whom, what they had trained in, who won, and how.

Anyway it sounds to me like the issue of ryu vs ryu was the secondary concern here. The YSR swordsman may or may not have been a valuable challenge because of the school he represented and his lineage and or personal history may have been what made him respectable. Okada was clearly fighting for the honor of his clan and not his ryu; the fact that he had trained in Ono-ha Itto ryu under Tadaaki was, however, possibly what gave him a chance.

[Nathan Scott]

Yeah, cool stuff. I agree. Training under Tadaaki is no small claim to fame. And he must have been an outstanding swordsmen or the clan wouldn't have ordered him to duel with a well known Yagyu as a representative of Aizu. I'd love to know how that worked out. Yagyu Gyobu sounds as though he had some importance within the Yagyu family, from what I could find, but almost nothing has been translated into English about him that I could find.

[DDATFUS]

Yagyū Gyōbu [柳生刑部; Real name = Yagyū Tomonori 柳生左門. He was a half-brother of Yagyū Jubei] and Okada Sohaku [岡田素伯] from Ono-ha Itto-ryu engaged in a sword bout. Okada had studied under Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki, and was ordered to challenge Yagyū by a superior. If Okada were to win it would raise the reputation of the Aizu clan [the outcome is not clear].



Very interesting story. I've been told by an exponent of the school that, in general, Yagyu instructors were forbidden to engage in duels, as any loss that they suffered would reflect poorly on the Shogunate. Clearly there are a few exceptions to that rule; Jigen Ryu has a story about a duel that their founder fought with certain Yagyu practitioners, and Jubei himself seems to have engaged in a few authorized matches.

[Nathan Scott]

Hi David,

I've heard the same thing, which is why Ono Tadaaki and Yagyu Munenori were never allowed to engage in a match. While everyone was curious who would win, it would be a loose-loose for the Shogunate. Rumor is that Tadaaki informally played around with Yagyu Jubei on the sly and won, and that Jubei then trained a bit with Tadaaki in order to learn his strong points.

Regards,

[DDATFUS]

Rumor is that Tadaaki informally played around with Yagyu Jubei on the sly and won, and that Jubei then trained a bit with Tadaaki in order to learn his strong points.


Extremely interesting story.

I think that an observation of Yagyu Shinkage and Ono-ha Itto yields some very interesting similarities (not the type of similarities you get from schools that have the same origin, but more like some cross-pollination has gone on).

[Cliff Judge]

Extremely interesting story.

I think that an observation of Yagyu Shinkage and Ono-ha Itto yields some very interesting similarities (not the type of similarities you get from schools that have the same origin, but more like some cross-pollination has gone on).

It is really hard to ignore the fact that both schools' primary teaching is that a good straight cut beats anything else.

[Nathan Scott]

There was definitely a lot of cross-pollination. Musha shugyo (visiting other dojo of other arts) went on to varying degrees for quite some time. The longer I study swordsmanship the more I see in common between the arts (not so much at the superficial level of course). It is pretty interesting though.

BTW, I did a quick search and found an online version of the Tadaaki/Jubei kuden that sounds like what I read previously:

According to oral transmissions, one day Ono Tadaaki left to visit the dojo of Yagyu Munenori as a guest. During the visit, the son of Munenori, Yagyu Mitsuyoshi, known as Jubei, stood up in front of Tadaaki and they crossed swords. The story says that at the same moment Yagyu Mitsuyoshi gave up, because he recognized the great skill and superiority of Ono Tadaaki. Munenori then ordered another student to face Ono Tadaaki, to which, he responded that everyone could strike at once if they want to test his skill. Four of Yagyu's students accepted the offer - they were struck down in seconds. Two of them found themselves on the ground, the third was disarmed and the fourth injured in the head. Everyone present, especially Munenori, were surprised by the skill of Tadaaki. The story also says that Munenori, on a few occasions secretly asked and took private lessons at Tadaaki.

I don't know what level of confidence others give stories such as this, but the inclusion of specific details is usually a good sign that the story is based on actual events.

[Cliff Judge]

Oh yeah! I was just reminded of the fact that Ono Tadaaki was a generation older than Jubei. In that light, the fact the Jubei put his sword down before starting is a remarkable feat of restraint. :)

[Cliff Judge]

per Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts by David A. Hall,

Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki - (? - 1628)
Yagyu Munenori (1571 - 1646)

Yagyu Jubei (1606-1650)

It was perhaps youthful impetuousness that led him to square off against Tadaaki in the first place. :)

[Jose Garrido]

BTW: Wasn't Sagawa sensei teaching the original Ikkajo set in his dojo? I believe he called it Ichijo.

Can anyone out there confirm this? Nathan?


Jose Garrido

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Jose,

To begin with, what is the "original ikkajo set"? The only "set" of ikkajo that I've ever heard of or seen was the sole creation of Takeda Tokimune (Aikibudo). Here are a few things to consider:

1) In the Hiden Mokuroku, "Dai-ikkajo" is the number of the first technique *only*. The scroll is not divided into five sections; the techniques don't have names; and it is not formatted in the same manner at all as Tokimune's Aikibudo version.

2) In "classical" Daito-ryu, ikkajo refers to a single technique (principle) that can be applied from a number of different attacks. Ueshiba (aikido) and Sagawa (DR) both use the term ikkajo in the same way, and Sagawa indicates that Sokaku also referred to ikkajo as a technique, and not a set.

3) In Kimura's "Transparent Power" book, Sagawa apparently makes the following statement about transmission scrolls (my translation): "Takeda Sensei himself often said that the transmission documents and scrolls do not contain anything important, so I [Sagawa] never even bothered to read the ones he issued to me." This is evidence that Sagawa wasn't taught from the scrolls, and didn't use the contents of the scrolls as reference for his own curriculum format. It is my understanding that the Sagawa Dojo no longer issues the traditional Daito-ryu scrolls, but rather, awards dan and/or gen ranks.

4) Sagawa Sensei taught 10 sets of taijutsu techniques he called "gen" (origins) as the core of this system. The most complete reference I've seen of the Sagawa-den curriculum is in the book "Hiden Nihon Jujutsu", by Matsuda Ryuchi. Matsuda was a student of Sagawa's, but I suspect what he wrote was a combination of his own research and what Sagawa Sensei told him. Anyway, according to the book, the 10 gen consist of a total of 610 techniques (kajo). Most gen contain 50-kajo, with the first five gen totaling 250-kajo - a lot more techniques than the 118 of Tokimune's Aikibudo. Gogen is taught at the 6th level of initiation, the completion of which is equal to the requirements for Hiden Mokuroku. So from this standpoint, it can be said that ichigen-gogen five-section structure is the Sagawa version of Tokimune's five-section structure of ikkajo-gokajo for the Hiden Mokuroku. But I suspect that is the only thing they have in common. The Sagawa Dojo curriculum is/was very comprehensive and extensive, and included the study of Kogen itto-ryu. Since Sagawa "held" the headmaster title for Daito-ryu for a few years prior to Tokimune taking it, I suspect Tokimune modeled his Aikibudo roughly on Sagawa's layout (dividing the hiden mokuroku into five sets and including the study of Ono-ha itto-ryu to the curriculum). Just my theory though.

At the Sagawa Dojo, new students are said to train 6 basic techniques for anywhere from 3-5 years. As far as "gen" (ichigen, etc.) goes, this term is one that Sagawa adopted. However, his gen structure was modeled to replicate the "koshu" (seminar) formats that Sokaku used to teach most of his students. Sokaku originally taught 30 classes over 3 ten-day seminar periods (koshu). Those that completed all three koshu were eligible to receive the Hiden Mokuroku. So under Sokaku, the entire jujutsu curriculum was theoretically taught over a period of 30 classes. Later, Sokaku shifted to a 28 class format over 4 seven-day seminar periods (koshu), and likewise dropped the requirement to the completion of all four koshu.

Personally, I think Sokaku used these koshu to introduce techniques to students, with the expectation that they would memorize the techniques and/or take notes, then practice them after he left (ie: study group format). As far as he was concerned, once he demonstrated the technique, you've been "taught", and you either work hard to master them or end up completely clueless. On the other hand, Sagawa and Tokimune both taught out of a dojo to direct students, so they both adapted Sokaku's seminar format to a longer-term dojo format where time would be taken to allow for the repetitive training of techniques (ie: dojo/deshi format). Perhaps roughly the same number of techniques, just practiced under supervision, and over a longer period of time. Instead of the scroll being awarded upon being "taught", they are now awarded upon having "mastered" the techniques.

Don't know if this exactly answers your questions, but HTH.

Regards,

[Cliff Judge]

Why is Daito ryu so insane? :laugh:

[Nathan Scott]

Ha ha ha...

Yeah, I guess it seems that way. I think the biggest problem is that Sokaku opted to travel and spread the art widely throughout Japan, in hopes of making his mark and ensuring the survival of his legacy. For the most part, he created study groups, and initiated those who continued to attend his seminars more deeply into the teachings. Only a few were able to learn one-on-one with Sokaku, more closely replicating the more traditional master/disciple relationship. But Sokaku didn't provide his students with a clear curriculum format, and this required each successor to organize the teachings into some kind of logical structure for regular dojo instruction. The more I research the art, the more I recognize how much is in common between the various branches. Structure and terminology is often where things diverge the most.

I think Tokimune made a great effort to unify Sokaku's succeeding students under him into one organization (even though it didn't work), and made a commendable effort to standardize the art. I think he recognized from the scrolls that there was once a clear structure that was laid out for the art, and wanted to revive that structure for the next generation who were teaching out of a dojo (rather than completely discard the original structure).

Interestingly, Sokaku was pretty innovative and "flexible thinking" for being such a hard-core old school martial artist.

Regards,

[Jose Garrido]

Thanks Nathan