Tantojutsu...

[yamatodamashii]

I have a friend who's interested in tantojutsu. Specifically *Japanese* stuff, I've already mentioned Filipino and other knife systems and he's not interested.
So, I mentioned the x-kans and Shindo Muso ryu jodo; he says he's hit a wall.

Anybody got other ideas?

[Andrew Craig]

This is a really good question.

I have not been able to find any reliable information on the subject through literature searches or on the Internet. Neither am I fortunate enough to know any classical stylists who I could approach on the subject.

I did have a tiny amount of Tanto Jutsu instruction once at a seminar in the UK, from a visiting Russian Sensei called Andrey Sokolov. It really wet my appetite to know more. Some of the cuts demonstrated were quite exotic for want of a better word and I would like to know the meaning behind those movements. As you might appreciate the Russian – English language barrier didn’t help in getting explanations.

However I have noticed there is a Yanagi Ryu video available (Tanto Jitsu) on the subject at Bugei http://www.bugei.com/video_instruct.html if that will interest your friend.

I would be interested to see what your inquiry digs up. In your post you mentioned the x-kans and Shindo Muso ryu. Do you or anyone have any information regarding what emphasis tanto jutsu has within these schools.

Best Wishes

[Walker]

In one sense tanto jutsu is just jujutsu with a knife which is in another sense kenjutsu without a sword etc. etc.

From Yanagi ryu - Kenjutsu 4 is companion sword tech.s. It is presented with a bit more context than Tanto jutsu and is ‘styled’ nicely for a Japanese enthusiast.

There are several out of print books out there that are nice Meynard’s Tantojutsu book and Hoban’s Tanto come to mind.

[charlesl]

I don't think there is any tanto in the Shindo Muso ryu curriculum. I'm pretty sure of this, like 99.9%. I've read that there's some tanto in some naginata ryu, but I believe that the emphasis may be on tanto vs. naginata. I've seen some knife work in one style of jujutsu, but I don't think it was a tanto. I don't know about any other tanto stuff.

Live long and prosper,

-Charles

[Sochin]

The vid by Don Angier is a good tape, clear and full of style. It is not just tanto work but even the other stuff is interesting if you like Japanese culture.

"Sensei Richard Kim studied with the great Yoshida Kotaro from about 1936 until the master's death (1951?). Sensei Kim also knew and trained with Sokaku Takeda in Hokkaido in the presence of his instructor Yoshida Kotaro before the death of Sokaku Takeda in 1943. For approximately four years Sensei Kim was an uchideshi in the household of Yoshida Kotaro. His knowledge of Takeda aikijutsu is profound." Sensei Ray Castilonia, Aoinagi Karate.

I believe this is the same line of influence brought down to Soke Angier although Sensei Kim taught me Shorin-ji Karate (with aiki jutsu and boxing add-ins), so I bought it to feed my hunger for all things sharp and shiny and I was well pleased.

[Brently Keen]

Ted, with all due respect is there any evidence to support any of these claims?

I think that Richard Kim's involvement with Kotaro Yoshida has been greatly exaggerated. From 1936-51? I seriously doubt that. The extent of his instruction was much more likely limited to his association to the Butokukai, and possibly with Mas Oyama. Kotaro Yoshida apparently taught Daito-ryu briefly under the auspices of the Butokukai.

I'm also not aware that Kim learned from Yoshida in Hokaido (I had understood that Yoshida was located somewhere in Kansai or possibly Saitama - at least later on when he would have met Kim).

And finally, I do not believe Richard Kim ever met Sokaku Takeda personally.

Perhaps someone with connections to Kondo sensei might be able to clarify some of this?

On the other hand, I agree that Don's tape(s) are excellent. I also understand that Takenouchi-ryu also has a fair amount of tantojutsu.

Brently Keen

[Sochin]

Good morning Brently,

let me see,

I don't know how to research definitive answers...I tried myself to find out a history for Yoshida Kotaro and failed to get anything besides the most cursory facts. He was a very private person in a public life.

Sensei Kim talked about these kind of things in his lectures as off-hand comments, etc's, asides, so to speak.

From these musings, two dates have been offered as the start of his training under Kotaro Sensei, 1936 and 1945 - what is clear is that he trained in his sensei's house as uchi deshi for four years sometime between 1936 and 1951. Since Sokaku Takeda didn't die until 1942 or 43, they could well have met.

What moves me is that such things were written down and made part of the public record (so to speak) by various of his students and he did not correct them...

We do know he was in Yokohama from 1951 - 1957 instructing Shorinji-ryu Karate, Judo and Kobudo at Friers Gym and that in '57 he established the Kenshu Kan Karate School with James Miyagi in Hawaii, which school is still in operation.

[Walker]

Kim out and out lied about the date of Yoshida’s passing to Don Angier, so he has a lot of work to do to reestablish credibility in this area.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by yamatodamashii
I have a friend who's interested in tantojutsu. So, I mentioned the x-kans and Shindo Muso ryu jodo; he says he's hit a wall.
Shinto Muso-ryu has subsumed a school of tanjojutsu; is this what you're thinking of? like Charles, i'm not aware of any tanto training in SMR. even once you begin SMR you'll spend a considerable amount of time training strictly with jo, tachi and kodachi before your teacher invites you to study any of the ancillary weapons. sounds like your friend will have to look elsewhere for tanto, but if he finds a qualified SMR teacher both Charles and i would gladly recommend the art, i'm sure!

[Andrew Craig]

Further to this topic I wonder if anyone would be good enough to answer a few questions, or (better still) point me in the direction of some literature where I could find them myself. :)

1) Traditionally who used the tanto? Was it designed primarily as a weapon or was it more for utility?

2) What is the purpose of the "chisel" shaped point seen on many reproduction tanto? Was this blade shape ever frequently used? I looked at a collection of Japanese arms borrowed from the Nikko Toshogu shrine, housed at the Royal Armouries in Leeds (UK) and do not recall seeing one example of this blade shape.

3) Originally posted by Walker
In one sense tanto jutsu is just jujutsu with a knife which is in another sense kenjutsu without a sword etc. etc.

I have heard that said before, however I don’t think I fully grasp the meaning of that statement. Does it in essence mean that you apply similar principles irrespective of whether you are wielding a weapon, with small adjustments to take into account the change in mai ai and the different physical characteristics of the weapon (or lack of one)?

Best wishes,

[Walker]

With all of the disclaimers about being no more than a danger to myself and others, I’ll give it a stab ;)

1-I think most elements of society could possess knives of various design. Samurai were obliged to carry the two swords, but could choose to carry a tanto for the short.

2-I think this is best referred to as an americanized tanto and is a modern design.

3-In theory the Bugei were constructed around a set of interrelated movements that propelled different weapons. Couldn’t say I fully understand it either, but the same motions keep popping up over and over. Best advise - look for it.

For what it’s worth...

[charlesl]

Jeff Hamacher wrote:
...but if he finds a qualified SMR teacher both Charles and i would gladly recommend the art, i'm sure!

No, I absolutely do not recommend the study of SMR jo or any other koryu bujutsu. Please all of you just stay away!

pssst, Jeff, what are you thinking? These people are just going to come and hog time with our teachers! More time for them means less time for me! Gotta keeps it in da fold, bra. If all want practice da kine, no mo time fo us bra.

-Charles
Who hogs more time with his teacher than anyone else in his group...

[yamatodamashii]

Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher

Shinto Muso-ryu has subsumed a school of tanjojutsu;

Yep, I misread it at www.jodo.com. Dang! One less potential source...

[Neil Hawkins]

I suppose the question must be asked...

Why does he want to learn Tantojutsu so badly?

As has already been mentioned there is not a strong component of tantojutsu left in many styles. Some of the traditional jujutsu styles still teach some (Takenouchi Ryu for example) but it is rare. Plus if you did find someone who is capable of teaching it, they are usually very reluctant to teach to new students owing to the lethality of the techniques, you have to gain their trust first. Expect to wait years before you see any in most schools.

Andrew, the chisel pointed tanto is an American invention (cold Steel was the first to manufactur it if I'm not mistaken) designed to give maximum strength to the blade all the way to the tip. The design was seen as the ultimate utility blade, very strong, held an edge well, but was not as sharp as some blade designs. Ideal for military or survival specialists who would be digging, prying, levering and so on with it.

Traditional tanto followed the same design as katana with more curve to the blade and often matching fittings. Ask about designs and technical stuff down in the Kenjutsu Forum or across at www.swordforumbugei.com, www.bladeforums.com, www.knifeforums.com or www.vikingsword.com where you will find more information on the subject than you'll ever need to know. :)

Regards

Neil

[Kit LeBlanc]

This is a neat little article discussing some of the points mentioned above. I believe James discussed the same topic RE: the chisel point tanto on the Bugei form having to do with tactical folders as well.

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/hissatsu.html

I have owned a couple of the Cold Steel chisel point folders. One was a backup weapon and looked very impressive when deployed, and I lost the damn thing. The other was a smaller folder that I used for utility work on the job, it worked out well until the molded plastic clip broke. I carry one of the recon tantos on tactical ops now, since it will be used pretty much entirely for utility stuff and not as a weapon except in extremis. I went to a CRKT Crawford Casper for a backup/defensive knife after reading the article above and the thread on the Bugei Forum.

One point that I would like to comment on...many people mention how Japanese tanto work is pretty simple...not as highly developed as the Filipino style stuff, for example. It also seems much more an adjunct to grappling. While I personally have very limited instruction in Japanese knife stuff, it seems to me that the simpler the better if actual self defense usage ever becomes an issue.

[yamatodamashii]

The fellow in question is a retired Marine who now works as a cqc instructor. His base is the Sykes-Fairbairn system, but he has become enamored of the tanto and wants to learn the techniques developed specifically for said weapon.

I'm of the opinion that if you can use a knife, you can use a knife--and certainly a tanto is not significantly different from a Ka-Bar. But he really wants to learn the Japanese techniques.

[Kit LeBlanc]

The single edge may make a small difference. Not with the Ka-bar though.

[charlesl]

Maybe he's looking for some of that "punching through the armor" kind of stuff? I remember all those really stupid ads they used to run, about how the bullet-proof vest wasn't "tanto-proof." I think there was a knife that was used for punching through armor while grappling, but I don't think it was a tanto (the work "kogusoku" comes to mind, but that might have just been grappling in armor).

-Charles

[Neil Hawkins]

Ok, the tanto stuff I have done/seen is quite practical, but it is an adjunct to jujutsu or kenjutsu. The blade in many cases is used much like a sword and swung along the same arcs as the katana only in a much shorter motion. We would not extend the arm outside of the body area unless it was to deliver todome (coup de grace).

There were some intricate motions that would be used to remove someones armour once they were captured, some more to remove their head as a trophy, but mostly it is offensive stuff. There were some nice reverse grip moves used with the knife hidden in the sleeve of a kimono.

I moved onto Filipino knife work as being more practical, and it has a good defensive component (depending on your instructor). I used my training tanto (a steel one with no edge) throughout the training with no problems. In fact the strength of the blade was an advantage at times over the more flimsy Filipino blades. I had a Cold Steel Balisong that was brilliant, but I managed to lose that and haven't been able to replace it.

One avenue I had forgotten about that you may find tanto still taught in would be the womens arts associated with naginata. The tanto was often the weapon used by samurai women and I believe I have heard of it being included in the curriculumn of some of the Naginata Ryu.

Regards

Neil

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by charlesl
pssst, Jeff, what are you thinking? These people are just going to come and hog time with our teachers!
damn, the jig's up!!! sorry 'bout that, Charles!:laugh:

[Andrew Craig]

Thank you Mr Walker and Mr Hawkins, I really appreciated your replies. :wave:

I wonder if anyone will indulge me an answer to this next question?

One of the tanto methods I was shown at the seminar I mentioned seemed really impractical. We were drilling the static technique out of context however so I wonder if the intended application makes it seem more sensible.

Tori and Ukie stand facing each other half a meter (yard) apart.

Tori conceals the drawn tanto behind his back in a right-handed conventional grip (i.e. like a squash racket) and grabs Ukie by the lapel with the left hand.

Tori pulls Ukie of balance and changes posture so as to be at right angles to Ukie with Tori's left hand side next to Ukie and leans forward slightly.

Tori lifts the tanto above shoulder level and thrusts the tanto behind his own neck at Ukie, at which point the cutting edge of the tanto is uppermost.

(A very poor description but I don’t know how to do adequate justice to even such a simple technique in words)

The only interpretations I could come up with were either to thwart an overhead attack (but there are more obvious and easier ways) and, or to keep the tanto concealed until the very last moment.

It seems overall a very risky tactic with little in the way of advantage, leaving the front of your body at the right side relatively defenceless, with your right arm and weapon in a weak position.

Could anyone correct my interpretation or offer a more insightful one?

Also please don’t be afraid to tell me if you think this technique is pure hokum, I won’t be at all offended.

Best Wishes,

[Walker]

If I understand what you are saying it’s not doing much for me.

[wmuromoto]

There are various koryu schools that include the short sword (tanto, kogusoku, shoto, kodachi), etc. in their curriculum. The Jikishinkage-ryu naginata uses it against a swordsman, as does most of the tanto kata in the Tendo-ryu, although I do believe the Tendo-ryu also has some kata that are against a naginata person. Not sure if it would really work, though. I'd just as soon run away than face someone with a gadawful long naginata trying to whack at me and all I had was a short tanto. I also have doubts that the tanto would work that well in the Jikishinkage-ryu tanto against a sword, but it was a weapon of extremely last resort.

Most naginata schools have tanto use because that was the secondary weapon of women warriors if they lost their naginata in combat.

On the other hand, the Takenouchi-ryu uses a kogusoku, which is somewhat longer than a tanto, shorter than a kodachi, as its primary auxiliary weapon in light armored grappling.

I do not think it is as complex as Filipino arts, but one must study the application and uses. You were fighting other warriors who were heavily to lightly armored, and slashing cuts to vitals on the outside of the body would not penetrate the armor, hence the simpler, stabbing thrusts of the Japanese arts, or the attacks to areas that would be open in Japanese (or even modern day) armor, slashing deep enough to cut major arteries and veins or penetrating thrusts to puncture vitals quickly, then trying to jump away quickly so you don't get cut in return. In the Takeuchi-ryu, two things are paramount: getting the opponent down to the ground while you are striking his vitals, thereby rendering his position defenseless as well as cutting him on his way down, and getting the heck away from the guy. It's too easy for someone that close to get you with a lucky swing. So one reason why the Japanese arts are simpler is you don't want to dork around with this guy who's swinging a short sword at you at so short a distance, no matter how good you may be.

I'm not saying either system is better. I'm very amazed at the rapid hand movements of Filipino arts, and probably would be hard pressed to work against a proponent of the art if we were in light civilian clothing. Put on armor...classical Japanese or modern Kevlar type body armor, add a couple more pounds of gear (flak jacket, combat boots, ammo belt, back pack, helmet, night vision goggles pack, etc.) and then you begin to realize how the Japanese arts like the Takeuchi-ryu developed the way they developed. You want to move around as little as possible yet still not give the guy a chance to get at you because all that frikking stuff gets HEAVY. Like plate and chain armor. And I was told by one blacksmith that even some chain mail, if forged right, could stop a broadsword thrust cut (you'd still hurt from the impact of the thrust, though). So forget about using a short sword to cut through armor, unless it was those kabuto wari things, which worked like a can opener/puncture tool.

Well, anywho's, that's my own two cents' worth. Gotta go work on some long delayed projects now...

Wayne M.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Wayne,

That was REALLY cool.....

[Evan London]

Jason,
I don't know if your friend is there in MO or someplace else, so I thought I'd mention that Manaka Sensei of the Jinenkan has incorporated tantojutsu into the Jinen Ryu material. Unfortunately there are no Jinenkan people in MO that I know of.

Best of luck,
Ev

[yamatodamashii]

No, theres a Bujinkan school in St. Louis and a SKH Quest Center in Kansas City... and NOTHING in between. But the guy I'm asking for is actually an internet acquaintance--I've never asked where he lives.

[Dan Harden]

Jason
To get back to your original question -your friend will have a tough time of it I'm afraid. To fully understand the methods of a Koryu regardingd its weapons He'll need "to do" their weapons. In most any of the arts the use of the knife fits in with the tactics of the school. There isn't much point in thinking he can have just x, from a syllibus of a complete a-z art and think he will arrive anywhere useful. I cannot see anyone studying the Kodachi work in TSKSR and using it "as is" for knife work. The movements and momentum relavant for what they are, are too big and not needed for knife work. So you could take the Kuzushi, timing, vectors, and body movement and work to reduce them.
Having studied two Koryu I remain a fan of modified Filipino arts in regards to knife work. I like the older, more closed spiral approach. It cuts to the heart of things. Stabbing, moving, and off vectoring with an all important "never leave the way you came in" approach makes it harder for an opponent to read you or your attack. The Japanese stuff has sound principles all right but they need to be reworked so they flow better. Overall there is quite bit out there that is just too pretty and easy to take apart for my taste.


The blacksmithing comments about Chainmail stopping broadswords is somewhat true. There are several distinct chain patterns and not all would holdup. Either way you will get moved or bruised but chainmail was seldom worn without a heavy padding underneath to stop that last 1/4" of point and absrob some shock.
Having forged weapons for over 20 years and handling many weapons I can say there was, and is, a whole lot of play in the tempering of blades and armor throughout any given culture both in a single time period or in several as metallurgy advanced. It becomes a bit difficult to be definitive and say "this will stop that."


Chisel points for knife geometry
The chisel point has much in its favour for combat weapons. Yes,it will penetrate Kevlar but only if the geometry is right. Too thick, or too thin and you have problems. The comedy is that many companies here sold them as tanto-but tanto never looked like that. The typical American tanto has more in common with certain fishing knive geometry than any knife a classical warrior ever used.

Armor peircers
Both the Europeans and the Asians used a simple thicker (more)diamond shaped geometry for penetration. And it wasn't just for knives-many war hammers were not the "big bangers" movies made them out to be-they were smaller and pointed to penetrate. Having seen felt and handled several plates, helmuts and hammers, I can say it worked right well. Dents and punctures in armor were not comfortable. It is fairly easy to see the hammer blows VS the arrow holes. A more interesting topic would be the combat application of the techniques to cause such blows. Most of the ones I have seen were in the front of the chest plates and on top of the helmuts. A study of the methods used to train the men would be interesting. I am not a big fan of wind up techniques in weaponry "Cut- return point wind up" Cut, move return piont etc. I lke the closer in spiral to control and depress and cut to the arteries. In that vien it would be interesting to see
the techniqoues used to cause such blows.
I have used a modified stone chisel point to penetrate plate stock in the shop and have easily pentrated 55 gallon drums. But the better plat was differentially tempered requiring much more force to penetrate-in fact it would have exhibited a pronounced pentient for denting instead of opening up.

Anyway
The discussion of knife is a difficult one, the excellent ones are going to be non-traditonal free thinker types. You can train all day long but facing a guy who has faced them down, been cut and still has the warped attitude to like this stuff is going to surprise you. So much of this Budo stuff (of any culture) is really about KISS principles and mindset.

Dan

[yamatodamashii]

We're getting some dang good posts here--thanks, everybody!

[Andrew Craig]

Several people have commented on the mechanical simplicity of Japanese knife work.

Does anyone think this could be a reason for the poor knife defences found especially in gendai arts, due to misunderstanding of that simplicity?

Best Wishes,

[Dan Harden]

Andrew writes
Several people have commented on the mechanical simplicity of Japanese knife work.
Does anyone think this could be a reason for the poor knife defences found especially in gendai arts, due to misunderstanding of that simplicity?


Andy
I think the opposite is true-all the good knife work (offense/defense) is in the gendai arts. Just not the Japanese ones.;)

be careful out there

Dan

[Neil Hawkins]

Andrew,

I think the poor defenses you speak about are a carry over from traditional Japanese knife work.

As has already been mentioned traditional tantojutsu comprised of powerful thrusts designed to penetrate armour at its weak points. Many jujutsu styles practiced defending against these thrusts and IMO over the years as armour was discarded they continued to use the knife in the same way because they were part of the katas that defined the ryu.

Many schools have taken these motions and continued to teach them without the understanding that they are based on older ideas.

Western knife fighting has strong roots in the fencing arts and so has more slashing motions, lunging thrusts and so on. Some schools developed techniques based around this sort of attack, but again over the last few hundred years the use of a knife has changed. Influence from Indian and Philipino arts were contributing factors, and defenses had to adapt again.

There are very few schools that teach good defenses against modern knife attacks, most of the defenses seen were effective in their day, but they have failed to keep up with trends in the use of the knife.

But really, if the guy with the knife is good, there will be limited defensive action that will save you. It is best to avoid the situation altogether, but that's a whole different kettle fish (one we have discussed before at length).

Regards

Neil

[Brently Keen]

Andrew asks:

"Does anyone think this could be a reason for the poor knife defences found especially in gendai arts, due to misunderstanding of that simplicity?"

Dan responded:

"I think the opposite is true-all the good knife work (offense/defense) is in the gendai arts. Just not the Japanese ones."

Neil said earlier:

"Ok, the tanto stuff I have done/seen is quite practical, but it is an adjunct to jujutsu or kenjutsu."

And then later said:

"I think the poor defenses you speak about are a carry over from traditional Japanese knife work.

As has already been mentioned traditional tantojutsu comprised of powerful thrusts designed to penetrate armour at its weak points. Many jujutsu styles practiced defending against these thrusts and IMO over the years as armour was discarded they continued to use the knife in the same way because they were part of the katas that defined the ryu.

Many schools have taken these motions and continued to teach them without the understanding that they are based on older ideas."

I agree with these comments, however, the problem of Japanese tantojutsu being viewed as weak (usually in comparision with modern Filipino & Indonesian arts) as I see it is not so much that modern Japanese arts are using anachronistic methods, but rather that the most popular and influential gendai budo (judo, jujutsu, aikido) arts have adapted primarily unarmed approaches to self-defense. Therefore their fundamental movements and principles have been modified (very well, I might add) to suit that context, but subsequently the effectiveness of their taijutsu (against other weapon based arts) has been compromised. The fault is not with Japanese "tantojutsu" per se, but rather with the context in which the tantojutsu is trained. It's not so much whether your using weapons or armour or not, it's whether the taijutsu upon which your tanto work is based is principally sound and appropriate. If your taijutsu is not adequate to start with - then obviously you're going to run into problems.

So to answer Andrew's question, yes. But I think it goes beyond misunderstanding the simplicity to also misunderstanding the context and purpose of tantojutsu within those arts (as well as within the classical systems).

I think it was Dan who also said:

"In most any of the arts the use of the knife fits in with the tactics of the school. There isn't much point in thinking he can have just x, from a syllibus of a complete a-z art and think he will arrive anywhere useful."

Agreed!

Brently Keen

[Neil Hawkins]

Well said Brentley, that was really what I was getting at in a very poor way.

Neil

[Shizen]

Hey, good stuff guys! I especially liked the insights given by the people experienced with blacksmithing /weaponsmithing, etc.

Something that I heard recently between modern knife techniques and older ones centered around getting through armor is that there only need be a little modification to fighting without armor. Speed is one thing, as is effectiveness of slashes to areas that would have been covered by plate. The point I'd like to make is that the weak points in armor are about the same as the weak points on the unarmored human body. The armor plates do cover the vital areas of the heart and top of the head, but think of all the holes: gaps in the joints of armpits, elbows, groin; the slit in the helmet for the eyes to see through, the gap at the neck between the helmet and breastplate. All are vital areas, so techniques designed to attack at the joints and gaps in armor are the same as attacking the vitals of an unarmored opponent. The angle of delivery needed to reach the gaps also works to take a person's balance when hit that way.

I've defended myself against knives a couple times and mostly I've been cut on the outside of my forearms - an area that would be covered by armor. I lost a little blood, but there was very little pain (thank you adrenaline) and I was not really affected by it. One time, as I was trying to counterattack, this crackhead with a knife stabbed me above the wrist, and the knife got stuck in my arm between the ulna and radius. All I did was look at my arm, but otherwise ignore it. The attacker was so shocked that he let go of the knife. I pulled the knife out, and the guy ran away. I needed a few a few stitches, but the outcome would have been very different if I was stabbed in the armpit or neck.

Just something to think about when you train in knife arts that came from armored warrior arts. The way they strike is not only effective against armor, but against the structure of the body.

Be safe people, stay away from dangerous areas with knife-weilding crackheads.*

*BTW - I was attacked on campus in high school and my back was literally against the wall.

[Earl Hartman]

Don't know much of anything about tantojutsu, but I just thought I'd make a couple of comments:

Wayne can correct me if i'm wrong, but I am under the impression that the companion weapon a bushi would wear into battle would not be a tanto but a "yoroidoshi", or "armor piercer". This was a short, very heavy bladed weapon that looked, essentially, like a kodachi on steroids, something you might see in a museum with a label that read ""Mucking Great Wakizashi". The one that I saw up close was very broad bladed with a huge, heavy tip. It looked vaguley like a naginata blade mounted like a kodachi but with a less pronounced curve in the tip.

Dan is right about mail. High quality, close-mesh riveted mail in the European pattern could easily stop a single-handed thrust with any typical European-style broad-bladed weapon such as a dagger or a broadsword. Indeed, there was a time in the early Middle Ages when broadswords had rounded points, since it was impossible to thrust though good mail. Dan is also correct about the under protection: a knight wore his mail over a thick, heavily padded garment called a gambeson, to help absorb shock and prevent the rings being driven into the skin, although mail itself, if heavy enough, dipserses shock pretty well. (There are eye-witness accounts of battles during the Crusades where knights would come back from battle shot full of arrows, looking like pinchsuions but essentially unhurt. The arrows had driven the mail into the padding but had not penetrated the rings.) The weapon a knight used to dispatch a fallen enemy was called a "misericord", or "dagger of mercy", and was, essentially, a dagger that looked like an icepick. It was designed to be thrust through the rings of the enemy's mail, since they could not be cut or penetrated with a blade with any kind of width wielded in one hand.

Dan is also right on the war hammer issue. Many of these had a head that looked like a meat tenderizer on one side, with a short, heavy, square or triangular cross section point on the other side. It is amazing how easy it is to punch a hole in a steel plate with one of those things. You can open a 16 gauge mild steel helmet with one of those things like you're using a can opener. Lance tips and arrow heads had points designed to penetrate between mail rings and burst the rivets by main force.

As plate armor became more prevalent ( partially a result of the devestating power of the English longbow, which could shoot through just about anything), and the mail protecting the gaps in the plates became less robust, sword blades became more triangular in shape, tapering to a very sharp point, and developed a diamond cross-section, which resulted in a very stiff blade suitable for thrusting.

FWIW.

Actually, while we're on the subject, I have a question about armor: I have always been puzzled by the huge gap under the armpit in most Japanese armor I have seen. I have seen photos of "wakibiki", or little flaps of mail attached to cloth designed to be worn to protect the armpit, but I can't understand why such a vulnerable and critical spot was not better protected by the armor design. Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, it seems to me that a good European mail hauberk with proper sleeves does a much better job of it.

[wmuromoto]

Andrew Craig wrote: "...Several people have commented on the mechanical simplicity of Japanese knife work.

Does anyone think this could be a reason for the poor knife defences found especially in gendai arts, due to misunderstanding of that simplicity?"

Interesting questions. I think there are two overly broad generalizations here, perhaps partly to my own ineptness in explaining things. Compared to Filipino arts, koryu Japanese short sword arts are, indeed, simpler and more straight lined, or at least the ones I've seen. But this is a generalization. By themselves, some kata can be rather complex, considering that in many koryu kata you were assumed to be loaded down with several pounds' worth of armor, and slashing quickly at a similarly armored opponent without adequate power would only make him laugh as he split one of your appendages apart with a big heavy sword.

In any art, in any country's style, there is a balance between speed and power. Many Japanese arts, although very fast, are simple because one needs a lot of power plus speed to cut an armored opponent. Multiple slashes with a small sword would only work if you were able to bleed and disable the person quickly, or you would be in HIS range as well, and his bladed weapon would be headed your way. Take off the armor and a Japanese swordsman, technically, might be at a disadvantage with a Western fencer or Filipino knife expert, unless the swordsman managed to slam the two-handed katana down and split his opponent's skull quickly. Yet, documentation exists of Japanese swordsmen holding their own in foreign settings, in Thailand and the Asian mainland, against different swordfighting methods. Chinese commentaries wrote of the formidable speed of Japanese swordsmen who they encountered in Hideyoshi's campaign in Korea, if I'm not mistaken.

Digression: I'm not sure if it's a tall tale or not, but one of my former judo teachers had a buddy who was in the French Resistance, a master fencing instructor and judo exponent. I was told over a lot of beers that when he was in Japan, he went up against a kendo person with a bamboo shinai, using a fencing foil, and tagged him several times without the kendo guy even touching him. I thought they were pulling my leg until Draeger mentioned the same story to me about this "leetle Frenchman" who took apart a kendo person.

That said, fencing like that requires precise stabbing, and if the fight was with a person in armor using a real katana, I wouldn't bet any money on either; the Japanese swordsman could shrug off most of the thrusts unless it hit an open spot in his armor, which could happen. Meanwhile, the Japanese stylist could slam a heavy metal sword down, whacking aside the slim sword, and chopping the fencer to pieces.

Is it "simple" though? It's relative. I look at some of Otake sensei's iai moves from an old tape and think, damn, how does he DO that without cutting himself to ribbons? There are some pretty complex moves.

The other part of the question asks why are gendai Japanese budo seemingly so simplistic in terms of knife defense? IMHO, it's based on the culture current at the time those guys were developing their knife techniques. By the end of WWII swords were confiscated and Japan was trying to move towards a "democratic" culture and government. Although it was hard to get guns to commit crimes, yakuza still had swords and knives, and people could easily take kitchen knives, etc. to commit murder and mayhem. But for the most part, these actions were committed by untrained people, and real instances of knife attacks were the gung-ho, one strike to kill 'em, sacrifice one's own self to kill the enemy type.

So my guess, and it's only a guess, is that many Japanese martial artists trained for that kind of knife attack because that's what they would have faced in Japan at that time; a committed stab, thrust or arcing cut by someone who is putting all his weight into it, who doesn't really care about protecting himself, as long as he hurts the defender. You train for what you think you would encounter in most situations, and the Japanese modern stylist did just that. It would have been rare, I think, for a Japanese police officer to encounter someone with a knife who would cut and stab with any strategy or complexity, or who held back in order to keep his own balance and tactical advantage. The person would probably be out of control, attacking with full force and commitment, and putting all his weight into the strike.

There seems to be a tendency still, to equate simplicity with ineffective, though. I suggest one look over those tapes of the Ultimate Fights whatevers, not that I'm a fan. But one thing those brawls showed is that when the guy is out to make corn chowder out of your brains, sometimes fancy flies out the door for some real simple punches, kicks and chokes. Simpler, too, is better when teaching beginners. Complexity is best built upon many simple but properly aligned moves.

That said, my own take is that if one understands the background of the particular art, then you can usually figure out why the style developed the way it did and only then form opinions about their relative "effectiveness." Karate can look very simple, as some Chinese stylists would say. But I've met some Okinawan karate guys who can shatter maple makiwara supports with one punch. All they need is to tag you one time and you're history. They don't need to hit you a lot of times with a lot of different techniques. Conversely, when I was studying tai chi, I was taught a backfist method that seemed very simple but different from the Japanese uraken. Too simple, I thought, then my teacher put a pillow on my thigh and struck her fist there. I felt the strike even through the pillow. I had to practice more to understand this kind of simplicity.

I tend to prefer therefore to keep an open mind, observe other arts and try to see why and how they developed the way they did, and then consider their strengths and weaknesses, not dismiss any country's style outright because their philosophy is different from my own style's.

But "styles" are what they are, "styles." They formulate the founders' particular reactions. Whether or not they truly work in a wholly different era has to be tested, perhaps if only clinically or hypothetically, if the exponents warrant the necessity. And some koryu people could care less if they did, because for them preservation of form is the main reason why they train. Nothing wrong with that. Preservation of a kenjutsu sword form is its whole reason after all, since there is no real application to using a katana in a self-defense situation. It does become more problematic when dealing with methods like tantojutsu or jujutsu that might have practical applications nowadays.

But I think, as another poster noted, that it would do no good to cut and paste from one style and another. In my own case, I think you are then developing superficial techniques, and not general, instant, stylistically developed reflexes that kick in almost without thinking about it. "Style" is about that; developing reflexes that react quickly to unforeseen situations, so you don't have to think "Oh, I'll use technique A from style F if he does this, and technique B from style U if he does that..."

I ramble. Gotta go work...

Wayne Muromoto

[wmuromoto]

Hiya Earl,

I'm back from the dead. Literally. Tell you more about that later in private.

My own take on the opening in the armpit of Japanese armor is really from watching too much jidai geki, but I noticed that there's a lot of running of footsoldiers all over the countryside, and campaigns often involved a lot of travel. There was a posting here too about the relative size and endurance of old Japanese war horses, so my guess is that it was a trade off between protection and weight. Where they could lose some weight, they did. The armpit was a weakness, but most of the time, the arms were down. In iai, therefore, higher ranked swordsmen when doing kiri oroshi in, say shohatto, did not pause at jodan, before they brought down the sword because the jodan position had a lot of suki, but after the first horizontal cut. Then, as I was told, you brought the sword up and down in one breath, a "charan-pon" single breath.

The big flaps on the shoulder therefore were protection enough most of the time for strikes coming overhead. The other problem faced by the musha was arrow attacks. If you were in yoroi on a charging horse, wearing a big kabuto and those big flaps, you would hunch forward, flip the flaps forward, and thereby pretty much ward off any arrows directed to your upper body very effectively. Then rise up, flip the flaps to your rear, and your arms were free of encumbrances to shoot your own arrows. My guess, therefore, is that yoroi were designed a great deal to take care of arrows, and then secondarily with sword attacks.

Ashigaru had even less armor, but they made use of wooden shields against arrow attacks. I think the use of guns saw the development of different body armor (rounder, more solid, less small plates, more solid plates, and curved to deflect bullets) and the lessening of the size of the shoulder flaps. One piece of armor owned by Nobunaga was basically a converted Spanish one-piece armor fixed with Japanese style shoulder flaps and groin flaps because its one piece design, curving on its sides, were better built to deflect bullets.

I do think, though, that it must have been some kind of cultural oversight for the Japanese not to figure out that the openings on the underside of the armor had to be dealt with. So many techniques in koryu styles dealt with exploiting these weaknesses...Otake sensei once told me that his style documented how many seconds it would take for someone to bleed to death if you cut blood vessels exposed in those areas, and the Takeuchi-ryu also exploits those openings. I can only guess that it was harder than we think to really cut at those points. Or, it really was a cultural blind spot, like how Crusaders had a blind spot when they dropped their shields to strike overhead against the Arab defenders.

Anyway, I really gotta go now to work...

Wayne

[Dan Harden]

Interesting Points Wayne. I'm not sure whether the openings were as
"open" to cutting as we think. There was a post here a while back that got trashed with the crash of E-budo all about cutting styles. Guy, Carl, myself and Nathan were discussing various cutting methods. specifically the use of a bent arm Truncated cutting style and the more arching style. Coupled with that exchange were discussions of the relatively smaller hip movements some use VS some of the more "turn into the cut" styles.
My reason for joining in was to discuss the possible reason for such widely disparate approaches. Granted all work and have their very own rationale. It was rare to have such a detailed and mutual conversation.
Anyway to my point. In the style that I know I was taught to make good use of armor openings and use smaller cut/stab motions (really the Kuzushi is far more stabbing than cutting) and to make use of smaller more spiral cuts and a closer maai for actual encounters as opposed to more open Maai. Coupled with this was a study of how to cut while "wearing" armor. To that end there are various "closed" cutting motions that do not bring the arms up very much at all, and the aforementioned use of the truncated cut. This to reduce the amount of time one was theoretically exposed to "tsuki to suki" as it were. Unfortunately we never got far as the whole site crashed. We should all note that many arts have similar approaches to both these areas and others, inside the legs, arms, lacings etc etc. So perhaps the ability to access the openings in anything other than a "catch as catch can" was probably more realistic as you were theoretically up against a similarly able opponent.
Anyway- discussions of armor and resistance to bullets and arrows and increased deflections ability due to curves is a much studied and detailed topic. One Earl and I rather enjoy. Perhaps we shall get into it again eh Earl?

Wayne brings up a good point about simplistic mistakenly being equated with ineffective and I agree. In fact I think opposite proves to be true. Under induced stress and increased blood pressure it is the gross motor skills coupled with repetitive motion exercises that will most often win the day. Another sound reason for Stressful Kata training.


Dan

[edg176]

This thread has sure gotten interesting.

Re: Wayne's comments about complexity through simple movements
I completely agree. In my experience with Serrada, Filipino martial arts are all about building complexity through simple movements. Some of the previous posters made comments about Filipino blade systems having "more complex" movements, but honestly I think the reason the systems look complex is because the training methodology embraces long chains of simple movements put together...but that doesn't mean anyone is going to fight that way.

In sparring matches I've fought in or watched I've noticed that the movements are pretty simple compared to how people train. For example: in a lot of styles you see give and take or flow drills. Some folks think the fight is going to look like that, and of course it doesn't, which was a hard lesson for me to learn. I eventually asked my instructor about it and, paraphrased, what he said was that we are training our reflexes and co-ordination for a split second of a real fight. It seems like the complexity is in how the movements are applied versus complex movements.

Now I have to admit I used to think Japanese weapon arts I'd seen (mostly aiki-weapons) were simplistic compared to what I'd seen in the Filipino arts, I was sooooooooooo wrong.

Then I got my hands on two volumes of "The Deity and the Sword." Boy did that open my eyes. The concepts , use of angling and tactics blew my mind.

So I no longer think of Japanese weapon arts as simplistic in terms of concepts or movement.

RE: Speed of FMA's
I think one of the reasons the Filipino arts look so fast is because of the emphasis on training spontaneous reaction through semi-free sparring, i.e. flow drills, initiative drills etc.

So my question is, are there tantojutsu systems that use flow style drills? If so, is it a modern innovation? And if not, could a koryu system do that and still be true to its roots?

As an afterthought, this is one of the best threads I've seen in a long time!
Tim Fong

[Earl Hartman]

Lot of good stuff in both Wayne and Dan's posts. I'll need some time to get into it, but a few comments:

AFAIK, the shoulder protection in the older yoroi was specifically for protection against arrows as Wayne says.

The fencing techniques Wayne describes were developed for unarmored duelling, AFAIK. While swords eventually became more adapted for thrusting as armor changed in Europe, light thrust-only blades came later. In any case, the early rapiers were quite long and heavy, not like the later smallswords, which were strictly duelling, not battlefield, weapons. A confrontation between a heavily armored man wielding a slashing sword and an unarmored man wielding a light thrusting sword is hypothetical, probably. However, there are records of the French complaining about the ungentlemanly behavior of the Welsh longbowmen at Agincourt who, after they had used up their arrows, went around wrestling with the French knights and then stabbing them (katchu kumiuchi, anyone?). The longbowmen were armed with a short sword and buckler for close fighting after their arrows were gone, and the French knights, some of whom had dismounted for fear of getting shot off of their horses, were at a distinct disadvantage, since the press was so dense they couldn't maneuver properly. In this case, the ligtly armed and armored longbowmen had the advantage.

As far as kendo vs. fencing is concerned, I once beat up a friend of mine using kendo against foil, but I really think it is just a matter of relative skill. For example, kendo permits close work and body contact (taiatari and tsubazeriai) whereas fencers stop fencing if their bells clash. However, properly done, a thrust is faster than a slash, altough it will not have the same stopping power, probably.

Ah, yes, armor and the physics of deflection and mass vs. strength. From that perspective, there is probably nothing in the world that can out-perform a proper harness of Gothic or Italian armor of the mid 15th century. For aesthetic reasons I prefer earlier armors, but in the use of fluting and convex curves to increase strength while reducing mass, and the use of angles and curves to deflect blows, nothing even comes close to these armors. Contrary to popular belief, an entire Italian battle harness of that period probably weighed only around 50 lbs. There are damn good reasons that so many late Japanese armors incorporated nanban breastplates. They were better at stopping bullets than anything the Japanese had at the time. Also, being foreign, they were Cool.

Regrading the simplicity vs. effectiveness debate: I don't think there is one. The best kendo men I knew were not flashy, they just knew how to set you up, screw with your mind, and then take advantage of that with one well timed and well-placed technique. KISS is far more subtle and sophisticated than most people think. Again, if the idea is to kill him as quickly as possible, then KISS is where it's at. Simple does not mean crude.

Another Devil's advocate question: sword techniques in Europe developed in response to changes in armor (and vice versa). The original broadswords were heavy cutting weapons since you could not thrust through mail. As armor changed, the thrust came more to the fore, eventually superceding the slash entirely as armor was eventually discarded due to the increasing power of firearms. Eventually, duelling swords were almost exclusively trusting weapons, as it became obvious that the thrust was more efficient and that mass and cutting power, so important in armored fighting, were of little use against a skilled fencer. Why did not the same thing happen in Japan during the Pax Tokugawa?

(Duck and cover).

[wmuromoto]

Thank you, Dan and Tim, for taking some thoughts even further than I could have.

I would reiterate that I don't think one should make superficial comparisons between Filipino and koryu short bladed systems because the cultural and combative contexts are quite different. There is much that I admire of Filipino arts, if taught right, that frankly are missing in many Japanese arts, and I am sure the opposite is true. And Hawaii has some pretty amazing old Filipino masters. That said, I think the "flowing" give and take methods of Filipino arts are something that I think are important t develop reactive skills that are often missing in koryu kata forms, which are more deliberate and paced. In the Takeuchi-ryu, one of my seniors in Japan devleloped his own training system, which he says came from a dojo in Kurashiki, where they do vary fast repetitions of jujutsu kata over and over in a give and take style for a couple of minutes, for speed, endurance, and reflexes. But I don't think anyone's ever thought of doing the same for our kogusoku. We do have several short bo kata that are also similarly devised...

The Katori Shinto-ryu kata are longer, and from what I saw of Otake sensei when he was a bit younger, quite fast, similar almost to the speed exhibited by Filipino arts, but I'm at a loss for many other system's kata examples...

So IMHO, I do think one thing that Filipino martial arts people have that is quite laudable is that fast, reflexive, back and forth practice, to develop speedy reflexes. It would also develop, I would think, sensitivity to subtle motion changes, etc. in close proximity?

As for the cutting stuff, definitely something worth discussing more. The KSR's jodan no kamae, for example, is almost like a high hasso so as to keep the arms closer to the armpits even while in jodan. I have a feeling that all the hasso in the different styles was to avoid exposing one's armpits like in the jodan no kamae. The Takeuchi-ryu's kiri oroshi has a somewhat different emphasis than the ZenKenRen's men uchi cut...we tend to think it's like a bird flapping its wings, and emphasize the elbows close to the trunk at the end of the cut, like flapping down our arms from open to close, besides extension/pull in. It not only calls into play other back muscles, but protects the armpits as well.

...Interesting post, too, about getting stabbed in the arm. In the Takeuchi-ryu, there is a movement where someone you grabbed tries to punch you in the heart, and in a last ditch effort, you just have time to bring up your elbow against your chest so he punches you, yes, but in your forearm, at the same time pushing your forearm sidewards in an attempt to roll the punch off. It will still hurt, but at least you didn't get hit in the heart or solar plexus. Must be the same last ditch idea.

Wayne Muromoto
who should be grading papers

[Kit LeBlanc]

Earl,

RE: your experiences in Nagao-ryu... would you comment on the Nagao ryu curriculum involving kakushibuki and did it/would it include/apply to tantojutsu?

AND...

seems like the little I have heard about it the system was designed for dealing with close in edged weapon's assaults...any gleanings from what you studied/heard about re; this topic?

Just feeding my curiousity and adding fuel to this most excellent fire....

[Earl Hartman]

Kit:

I was thinking about talking about Nagao Ryu a little, so, here goes:

Nagao Ryu, or what I know of it, anyway, is basically poke him in the eye, kick him in the nuts, crush his larynx type stuff. It all depends on sensing the "kizashi", or the signs of the impending attack, and either beating the guy to the punch if you can or entering with the right timing and the right angle and taking him down instantly. The assumpton is if you mess around, he is going to kill you, especially if he has a blade and you don't, so you have to close to a ma-ai where his weapon is useless. It is considered that if you don't get in instantly and nail him (the most characteristic Nagao Ryu atemi is nothing more or less than a finger in the eye) you're a goner. So, the kata are very short, and the first attack is crucial. If it works you win, if it doesn't you're dead. Against a blade, you have two options: prevent him from drawing it to begin with, or closing as he attacks while controlling the weapon hand either to the outside (sotodori) or the inside (uchidori). Speed, timing and angle are everything. There is no bobbing, weaving, ducking, or shirha dori stuff. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am, pretty much sums it up. KISS to the nth degree.

I only learned the first 24 forms, so I didn't learn any kakushibuki stuff, but the forms I saw were based on the basic 24 forms. The typical Nagao Ryu kakushibuki is called the bankokuchoki and looks like a big knuckle duster. I don't want to sound flippant, but basically, it seems to work like this: if he grabs you you hit him with it. It's pretty heavy and used with a whipping motion, the favorite targets being the attacking hand, the leading foot for seated waza, or upside the head.

Nagao Ryu looks pretty crude, but it is simple and to the point. In particular,the use of the "shikaku", or dead spot in the enemy's stance is very simple, yet effective. They have some aiki-type stuff, but I didn't learn it.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman


It all depends on sensing the "kizashi", or the signs of the impending attack, and either beating the guy to the punch if you can or entering with the right timing and the right angle and taking him down instantly. The assumpton is if you mess around, he is going to kill you, especially if he has a blade and you don't, so you have to close to a ma-ai where his weapon is useless. It is considered that if you don't get in instantly and nail him (the most characteristic Nagao Ryu atemi is nothing more or less than a finger in the eye) you're a goner. So, the kata are very short, and the first attack is crucial. If it works you win, if it doesn't you're dead. Against a blade, you have two options: prevent him from drawing it to begin with, or closing as he attacks while controlling the weapon hand either to the outside (sotodori) or the inside (uchidori). Speed, timing and angle are everything. There is no bobbing, weaving, ducking, or shirha dori stuff. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am, pretty much sums it up. KISS to the nth degree.

I only learned the first 24 forms, so I didn't learn any kakushibuki stuff, but the forms I saw were based on the basic 24 forms. The typical Nagao Ryu kakushibuki is called the bankokuchoki and looks like a big knuckle duster. I don't want to sound flippant, but basically, it seems to work like this: if he grabs you you hit him with it. It's pretty heavy and used with a whipping motion, the favorite targets being the attacking hand, the leading foot for seated waza, or upside the head.

Nagao Ryu looks pretty crude, but it is simple and to the point. In particular,the use of the "shikaku", or dead spot in the enemy's stance is very simple, yet effective. They have some aiki-type stuff, but I didn't learn it.

Yer playin' my song....thanks.

[Dan Harden]

Just some notes on armors and things
If you find it terribly boring and all-blame it on Wayne.
Earl and I just can't help ourselves.
We're just bystanders I tell ya.


Taking account of my prior post regarding training to fight in armor-and with this- methods to keep the armpits further protected. There were armors to accomplish the same thing as well. Two versions I have personally seen-and one of which I was shown how to apply were the Wakibiki. I have seen these from the Heian Period to the Edo. Some were separate cord hung platelets suspended from the shoulders and hung under the armpit. These were made with mail, lacquered leather or one set I happened to see on an O-yoroi that were done with Same over steel. Another more elaborate form was in shape of a vest. They fit under the Cuirass.They were also done with leather and or mail And were quite able to cause deflection.

Waynes comments about the European Cuirass being used by the Bushi is correct as well. I have a drawing somewhere of a complete set made for Tokogawa Ieyasu; Spanish style, helmut, Gorget, and the Peascod style highly ribbed cuirass.When talking European cuirass in Japan though, the common pigeon breasted Cuirass (Hatomune-do)appeared more frequently than most. Probably because they were more common in Europe.
The Japanese also had their own version of the "body image" Cuirass simulating an actual Torso. I call them the Six-pack-do. The cheap ones were lacquered form work, the better ones had forged rib stiffeners. They had a funny Japanese name and my books are all packed away so I will have to let it go-it was something like Hoto koto or hoto yoko..I dunno. I think it had to do with “saints armor” or some such thing..........Earl??
Anyway Although the slope aids in deflection It was not the intent. Anyone who has worked plate will tell you the ribs and cupped hollows were for strength first. I have my own opinions of the value of deflection with moving bodies and blunt or pointed objects into steel plate.


Anyway
As I said learning to fight "IN" them is just as complete a study as learning to fight against them.


The comments on TSKSR's Jodan being more protective of the armpits are spot on. There is a method for lowering from that stance using breathing and body compression for the impetus that compels the strike very quickly. The In-no Kamae Of TSKSR has lowered elbows for protection there as well. Then of course you have Maki-uchi.
Big power in small spaces

As an aside the comments on full speed and stressful Kata are right on as well. We do this week by week. Although the Kata sequences are lengthy-there is no fair accounting for the stress on you being due to the simple exercise alone. I am convinced that on very deep levels they induce not only stress but also a certain detached hyper-awareness. Though the Kuzushi are exquisite-the Kata training method is rather rational on its own.
Someone, somewhere knew what they doing.


Hey Wayne......stop it!!!....you're contributing to the delequency of an over worked executive.

BTW fella, since you keep draggin TSKSR into the mix- wherein are your comments of the methods of Takeuchi?......hhhmmm.... Curious minds want to know...:D

Wake up Earl----I can hear that steam train mind of yours from here. Any pearls of wisdom to share?

Dan

[Dan Harden]

Earl
Funny you mentioned Agincourt. I had a sword in my hands two weeks ago from that battle. Papers and all. Remember our previous discusions on the stainless steel thread-and my comments that every European sword I had handled was spring tempered. There it was 34" inches of sprng tempered steel. It was shear steel as well I think. We are going to have it x-rayed to verify some of the marking that have been obscured. The guy also has a 1,000 year old spear, and three battle axes. One of the axes is either mechanical Damascus or very pronounced shear steel.
this week he brings me to his car. There is a cannon, and mp3 machine gun, a broom handled mauser, An Edo period saddle (same wrapped, carved and engraved) and three Bronze age weapons!!!
All in the trunk of Lincoln, outside a restaruant. I need to get a life.

Dan

[Earl Hartman]

Well, Dan, you asked, so here goes:

What is shear steel?

Also, if the European broadswords were spring tempered, I assume that what this means is that they were less susceptible to taking set bends than a Japanese sword and were thus more durable, if less capable of taking a really sharp edge, and that the edges they took would not last as long under the stress of battle.

I think we've had this discussion before, but it is still a good one, since I haven't really decided which approach was better. I suppose it is impossible to have any kind of head-to-head test with real period weapons.

[Dan Harden]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earl Hartman
[B]Well, Dan, you asked, so here goes:

What is shear steel?


*********************

The Europeans were experimenting with Blister steel. This a product where they packed iron bars into sealed boxes containing a carborizing agent. They were cooked above critical for a predetermined time period dependent on the size of the charge. The result was a very deeply infused product. I dislike the use of the term "Case hardened" regarding blister steel for the reason that to many read it and assume far too much-equating with a more modern tool steel method.
These were very deeply infused with carbon. Giving a range of high carbon on the surface to a graduated medium carbon in the core. I have read reslts from 1.10(surface) to .50 (core)I have to get my books on that one.
The resultant surface was "blistered" hence the name. You could have developed quite a fine weapon from this process with a high carbon edge and a spring tempered body.
The next step in the process was the shear steel. They simply took bars and forge welded them together. Sometimes folding (double shear)sometimes not. It resulted in a more uniform steel.
Superior Weapons though- should never be uniformly heat treated. Differentially tempering steel wasa known process, done in many different ways in different cultures.


Earl writes
Also, if the European broadswords were spring tempered, I assume that what this means is that they were less susceptible to taking set bends than a Japanese sword and were thus more durable, if less capable of taking a really sharp edge, and that the edges they took would not last as long under the stress of battle.

I think we've had this discussion before, but it is still a good one, since I haven't really decided which approach was better. I suppose it is impossible to have any kind of head-to-head test with real period weapons.

Tough contest my friend-very tough. Steel did not have to cut steel often. And when it did a softer edge would roll and could be repaired by steeling. Thus preserving the material. Hard edges will chip thus losing the material.
Also softer spring tempered edges will cut flesh and bone for "long enough" won't they?

The dead soft inner core Kobuse method is not a thing I would do. But the forge folded Katana has a lot going for it in cutting ability.

There may be a few dozen or so men on earth who have tested both-European and Japanese. I have, and I can't offer up which one is superior. If you know your steel and aren't head over heels predisposed one way or the other-its tough- since they both have trade offs to perfection.

Anyway
Like I said I had a huge sword from the battle of Agincourt in my hands recently. I bent it to about sixty degress over my knee (took some work)in a parking lot and it returned to true. No visable recent abrasion marks on the edge- yet it was still Convex ground to a usable edge.


Dan

I just edited this into the stainless steel thread. I was hoping you would talk about armors??

[wmuromoto]

Hi all,

I'm going to have to say I learned a lot from this thread. Thanks all for a lot of insight.

Dan: I guess I'm stingy about talking 'bout the t-ryu because a lot of its techniques, the jujutsu, the short dagger, etc., could possibly be applicable nowadays by some weird goof for their made-up martial art, whereas what Otake sensei said to us a couple of times has to do with the long sword, which I don't think is quite as applicable to "street fighting."

That said, the Takeuchi-ryu's theory of strategy is pretty close to how Earl describes the Nagao-ryu (which I found hilarious; his description was nearly as funny as watching Ellis Amdur's tapes of the Araki-ryu or some of our own ryu's weird kata); KISS. Whack 'em upside the head. Ha!

A note about dagger length, then, and a tidbit revealing something of our ryu. The kogusoku is a little longer than a tanto, shorter than a shoto, for its use in combat and for surprise attacks. I think the blade length was optimal for fighting against armored and bladed adversaries. I've practiced with a tanto in the Jikishinkage-ryu naginata and I think a tanto is very much a last resort weapon against someone with a sword. Too much can go wrong with such a short weapon against a long, razor-sharp blade, IMHO. The kogusoku is just the right length for defense and offense, I think. So from my own personal experience and opinion, knives shorter than a kogusoku is a dicey thing against a skilled swordsman. Earl mentioned a yoroi doshi. I've seen those things. Looks like a weird medieval can opener. Sonny Chiba used one of 'em in his Yagyu Ichizoku No Inbo TV series when he was supposed to be Yagyu Jubei. I'd hate to have someone try to puncture me with that sucker. It could do some damage.

Per Earl's thoughts about why thrusting didn't get more popular in the Edo period, I've sometimes wondered about that too. I did read somewhere that one kendo teacher felt the sori of the Edo period blades got straighter because many swordsmen were practicing kendo, and were influenced by the straightness of the shinai and a marked increase in the use of tsuki. But it never did turn into a primary attack method. I don't know why.

That, and other bits and pieces often has me wondering about cultural blinders. How much of the evolution of a martial art is shaped by cultural blinders that leave blind spots in its techniques, weaponry and armor? I think that was one of the topics discussed/still discussed in the guys who do a lot of the hoplology stuff and who know more than I do...Like how in my ryu, we naturally assume the guy's usually going to attack with his right hand, because there's obviously no left handed swordsmen in Olde Japan. So the majority of the kata are against someone who's attacking from his right side.

Just wondering again. Gotta go.

Wayne Muromoto

[the Khazar Kid]

Great thread!! Wayne, what is the story about the Arabian swordsmen vs. Crusaders? I don't think I've heard that one before?

Jesse Peters

[wmuromoto]

Per the story of the Arabs taking advantage of the overhead strike of the Crusaders...I think I read of it in e-budo, from someone like Earl or Dan...? Someone who had experience in working with long European broadswords and shields, and who did some research in Crusader fighting tactics. Anyone care to comment?

Wayne

[the Khazar Kid]

Do you remember how they took advantage of the overhead strike? Stop Thrust, Arm Cut, Leg Cut, other?

Jesse Peters

[Ted Bouck]

Excellent thread. Thanks to everyone for all the awesome info. :)

I am wondering what the length in inches the kogusoku should be?? I imagine longer than a tanto and shorter then shoto would be ?!.....maybe a 12" blade?

There are also, IMO, three ways to carry the tanto. In belt on left side of body the same as kat. On right side with kashira at center. Or in back with the tsuka positioned for a rear right hand draw. What is the best carry position? Or the pros and cons of each?

Thanks, Ted Bouck

[the Khazar Kid]

According to the fairly recent Tantojutsu thread on the CQC forum here at e-budo, the traditional carry for a tanto is center front at the belt, edge up, point to your left pommel to your right. This offers quite a variety of draws into various grips with either hand.

According to James Keating, the fastest fighting draw is strong-side (right side if you are right-handed) reverse-grip. He calls his method of short-bladed battojutsu the "Drawpoint" method, striking to point on the draw. This is best if you want to fight from reverse-grip. Historically, reverse-grip was the favorite method of Medieval Fechtmeisters, and warriors in Asia and Africa.

Jesse Peters

[wmuromoto]

Hi guys, in most koryu, as in the Takeuchi-ryu, the shorter sword is stuck in the obi on the left, as mentioned in a previous post, like a shoto. This goes in first. When the long sword is stuck in and the sageo is wrapped and tied onto the obi, this arrangement keeps the scabbard of the katana somewhat "locked in" on the sageo. Even with the katana out, the kogusoku is still worn the same way, as a matter of etiquette.

I don't have my practice kogusoku in front of me, but I estimate it to be about 15 inches long, give or take a couple of inches.

Other than a probably apocryphal story about one Takeuchi-ryu master wearing two kogusoku; one on the left and one on the right, with a katana, mainly to scare the heck out of some turncoat students, I don't know of any instances where the kogusoku was worn anywhere else than on the left side.

Wayne

[Ted Bouck]

Thanks to Wayne and "The Khazar Kid",

Wayne, I apologize for being AR, but is the 15" or so, the blade only length or overall?? :o

Khazar, I use the reverse-grip in some Euro stuff that I do. Works great as long as I am in close and voiding main enemies weapons with the left hand. It is next to worthless though, with my skill anyway, against another dagger wielder. Regular overhand with a katana grip works best for me then.

Thx again,

Ted Bouck

[the Khazar Kid]

You're welcome, Ted.

In Japan the "Drawpoint" method was called Metazashi by the Samurai. In this style the Tanto was worn with the hilt forward and the edge up.

It seems to me that the Samurai must have worn at least three blades: a short blade (tanto, yoroidoshi, or kogusoku), a medium length blade (shoto, to, kodachi, or wakizashi), and a long blade (daito, tachi, uchigatana or katana).

Jesse Peters

[Earl Hartman]

Why do you say that?

And what do you mean by "to"? It just means "sword". In addition to that, "shoto" (small sword) and "kodachi" (small tachi) are essentially synonomous, as are "daito" (big sword) and either tachi or katana, different words referring to what was essentially the same thing, a long sword, although they were mounted and worn differently and were somewhat different in design.

In any case, while each ryu had different names for their weapons, it seems to me that all shorter weapons such as tanto, wakizashi, yoroidoshi, or kogusoku are all types of "shoto". Shoto is generic while yoroidoshi, for example, refers to a specific type of shoto.

I would like to hear from Wayne on this.

[wmuromoto]

Dear everybody, and Earl,

Earl wrote: "Shoto is generic while yoroidoshi, for example, refers to a specific type of shoto.

I would like to hear from Wayne on this."

Aaaargh. I thought I had finished this thread and then then youse guys pull me back in (bad imitation of Al Pacino in "Godfather").

Yes, I would agree with Earl on this. -toh is not used by itself; if the single character for -toh is used, it is pronounced katana. Shoto is generic; it means "short sword." Yoroidoshi, on the other hand, refers to a specific weapon used for breaking open yoroi armor. Per the kogusoku (which literally simply means accouterments (sp.?) or accessories), it was about 15 inches long including the handle. A bit longer than a usual tanto, shorter than the usual wakizashi (I was not clear about this either and admit guilt in my careless use of terminology). This is about the length only for our kogusoku. Other schools have "kogusoku" methods and I have no idea about their weapon length.

PS...Earl, I just took a quick look at a kyudo website you're connected with while trying to get some info about kyudo for an upcoming story in Furyu. Nice site.

Wayne

[Earl Hartman]

Thanks, Wayne. Pretty much what I thought.

To which kyudo site are you referring? If you need any info on kyudo, let me know.

[Dan Harden]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wmuromoto
[B]Dear everybody, and Earl,
Aaaargh. I thought I had finished this thread and then then youse guys pull me back in (bad imitation of Al Pacino in "Godfather").

*******************

But Wayne dear-
What do you think we have been trying to do?
Be like Earl and I -take a commercial break from work and dither on E-Budo.

Seriously though -glad to hear that things are turning to the up side for you. It was probably wise to kick back for a while.

**********************************


Earl wrote: "Shoto is generic while yoroidoshi, for example, refers to a specific type of shoto.

I would like to hear from Wayne on this.



Well fella Ya got your wish- can we yak with you now too? Yoroidoshi were much like all the other bladeware as well Earl. Different shapes and sizes. Some more diamond in cross section then others, and different lengths as well.

*************************

Wayne
Isn't the term Kogusoku more commonly used for technical descriptions and tactics in armor and not just a knife type? Although the term is sort of interchangable-I always thought using the term for just a blade sort of didn't fit. In other words one went sort of with the other? I always thought of Kogusoku sort of like Koshi no mawari, or Kumi Uchi. Realizing of course they are all school specific-they are still done with typical bladeware- yes?. Or do I have my terms confused? It won't be the first time.
I will have to crack the books- But isn't both the guardless mount and the small tsuba used in Kogusoku?
I believe I have a picture somewhere of Takeuchi Sensei with what looks like a foot long blade with a tsuba.


Wayne-
Just looking to rest you from your labors to come share with those who are curious. Since you said you don't want to talk to much about the T-ryu how about a generic discussion of a type?

We arms and armor nerds like to know these things you know.
(although the nerd comment was really about Earl)




Hi ya Earl

Your commments about the large Agincourt sword? and how I get to handle these things? God likes me....
Seriously though-I know a collector who goes all over Europe. He buys from three firms that are rather exclusive. I have also held a Damascus sword in Gold relief etching owned by one of Napoleons officers (veeeery expensive). As well as a Tibeten blade presented from the Dahli lama to some British Embassador. I am going to the guys house this week to take some pictures of a three hundred year old Japanese saddle he wants to sell. Like I said the Agincourt sword has sme very interesting markings so we are going to have it x-ray filmed to try to reveal them.

Anyone want to buy a 35" Katana with a 12" handle in full polish? It's from 1852 that's all I know right now. I am awaiting further information and/or papers. I think its eight thousand pounds (ten grand or so)

cheers
Dan

[Cady Goldfield]

Nevermind taking pictures of that Edo era saddle... pick it up for me! I am sketching plans to build a replica.

Geez, thanks for sharing those opportunities with those who love ya... :rolleyes:

[Earl Hartman]

Dan:

Let me know what you find out about the Agincourt blade.

Re: nerd

I know you are but what am I?

[the Khazar Kid]

Hmm, I think the book I have that identified the "To" as a Wakizashi-like sword type, Jennifer Lawler's "Martial Arts Encyclopedia", is also the one that claimed there was a "Hachiman" sword. It seems to be a well of misinformation mixed in with real information.

Jesse Peters

[wmuromoto]

Jesse,

The kogusoku in the Takeuchi-ryu has a small tsuba, yes. I'm not sure what you mean by a "guardless mount." Takeuchi sensei (which one?) probably was demonstrating a wakizashi technique? We have kata for sword, wakizashi (saide and kuchisaide), and kogusoku (the short stuff).

I think different terms are applied differently ryu to ryu (well, roo you too!), but we tend to call the weapon a kogosoku and the kata set koshi no mawari, although we also say, "Oh, let's do kogusoku..." meaning the koshi no mawari kata. Koshi no mawari is more generalized, so it can include not just the "kogusoku," or short sword, but the rope (hojo), grappling, and even serving trays. Yep. We got a kata for throwing a tray full of food at somebody a la a Japaneses food fight so we temporarily blind the guy and draw out his own sword in the melee.

I kid thee not. There are other kata for metal charcoal chopsticks, Japanese umbrellas, Three Stooges-style eye pokes and rakes, pot lids (basically, if you're cooking at home and some samurai attacks you, whack 'em in the groin with a hot pot lid), using one's own urine to sneak into rooms (don't ask. I think it works better with guys, and that's a good excuse to drink some beer), using a coat on a saya to goad an enemy to attack, shuriken, short pieces of wood, and God knows what else they have yet to show me.

Wayne Muromoto

[Dan Harden]

Wayne
Thanks for clarifying my questions-though last time I checked I was not Jesse.

Dan

[edg176]

Hellow Wayne,
I've been meaning to get back to this thread for a while, but work is just killing me.

Originally posted by wmuromoto


[QUOTE][B] The Katori Shinto-ryu kata are longer, and from what I saw of Otake sensei when he was a bit younger, quite fast, similar almost to the speed exhibited by Filipino arts, but I'm at a loss for many other system's kata examples...

So IMHO, I do think one thing that Filipino martial arts people have that is quite laudable is that fast, reflexive, back and forth practice, to develop speedy reflexes. It would also develop, I would think, sensitivity to subtle motion changes, etc. in close proximity?



Yes. One important thing that I get out of flow sparring/reflex drills these days is an awareness of how to read which strike is going to come in next. The other is discovering how many particular applications that I can get out of the same movement by varying the timing.

Interesting bit about the fast jujutsu and bo kata. I figured that there must be Japanese systems with similar methods.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge about your ryu; I completely understand your misgivings about letting that stuff out in the open lest some whacko get ahold of it. I have similar concerns about the art which I practice. A lot of the stuff about carrying and deploying the weapon(s) quickly and deceptively is not something you want out in the open.

I believe you on the serving tray, kitchen attack kata. I know a Kajukenbo guy that used to train his students like that...they lived in a baaaaad part of San Francisco and needed stuff like that.

thanks again,
Tim Fong