Yamanni ryu Reply to ANDREAS
Hello Andreas, my names is Shaz and we have spoken before on Yamanni Chinnen ryu subject matter. I would be happy to clear up more of your questions. First and foremost, many people such as Shuguro Nakazato and Higa Seitoku studied with Masami Chinen. I cannot comment on their abilities because I haven't seen either of them move. Kishaba Chogi sensei studied under Masami Chinen for about 28 years. His abilities were and are recognized and documented by Masami Chinen, the Prefectural Government of Okinawa and still by the Chinen family. Chinen Teruo sensei of Goju-ryu (Grandson to Masami Chinen who didn't learn Yamanni Ryu) as well as many others such as Morio Higoanna recognize and remember him and his involovement with not only Masami Chinen but Chojun Miyagi. As far as what katas he learned..they are suuji no kun sho, suuji no kun dai, sakagawa no kun, shirataru, tomari shirataru, yunegawa, sunakake, and chikin/tsuken bo....they are listed on Oshiro Sensei's website. They are all from Masami Chinen and codified by his grandfather Sanda Chinen. This was an art practiced by the ryukyu nobles and although some practicioners who may not have grasped the art, combined it with farmer style techniques, Masami Chinen and his student Kishaba Chogi have not. Many people have trained with Kishaba Sensei. However, his two highest ranking Shihans are Nishime sensei and Oshiro sensei. They are both my teachers and are arguably at their highest levels in my personal opinion. Sensei Oshiro and Sensei Nishime are not only talented karate Instructors, their Bojutsu is almost magically powerful and fast. Both teachers teach this art and its unusual body mechanics in a very traditional sense. However, they introduce it at many tournaments in hopes people will embrace it as a way to better understand body mechanics in general. The modification of kata is because without this beginning method, it would be far too difficult to teach and show this art to a lot of people. ...so they created basic kihon kata with Kishaba Sensei's approval wich help develop the concepts many students need to understand the traditional kata. The modified kata are basic..his video released from dragon tsunami shows the basic modified kata.However, to reach the highest levels of Yamanni-Chinen ryu you will find yourself discarding the modified versions and only practicing the traditional version. On Oshiro sensei's website www.oshirodojo.com..he discusses this further in an interview. I hope this helps
regards Shaz DSouza RBKD
just some thoughts on menkyo kaiden
I'n not here to change anyone's mind, because it seems people have their minds made up already. I will, however, contribute a little to this older conversation (i just came across it today) with a bit of my own thoughts.
Quote:
If Kishaba Chôgi - who maybe studied under Masami Chinen in whatever meaning you may interpret "study" - should have such a written diploma it may be allowed to ask for it's existance and what it states (Shihan Menkyo, or Menjô etc.). Also there are maybe more hints on such a diploma, like "the person learned Bôjutsu for a long time" or "... reached this or that level" etc. It should be in your mind to provide such an information, if it exists (as Miyagi Chôjun did not give our diploma or ranks, it would also be intersting to know how long Kishaba trained under him, if he continued training with others).
I trained in Yamanni Ryu with Oshiro Toshihiro for almost 20 years. I also trained with Kishaba Chogi for the three years I lived in Okinawa (1994-1997).
I remember a conversation I had in Kishaba's dojo one night. During one a mid-class break in one of Kishaba's classes, I asked sensei about the menkyo kaiden.
We were all sitting in a corner of a room, and Kishaba answered me with a very short reply, one in which I could not understand at all, given that it was a mix of hogen and very masculine Japanese. It was up to another member of the group to explain to me in more simple terms (I forgot who it was), but the gist of it was that at the time Kishaba was training with Chinen it was not a given that people got menkyo kaiden in Okinawan martial arts: that tradition was more a practice seen in Japanese martial arts than it was in Okinawan ones. Okinawan martial systems traditionally did not place such a deep emphasis on records, certificates, and licenses.
Oshiro, in fact, said a similar thing in an interview with Dong Tran. (http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_int_dong.html)
OSHIRO: "I believe there were other Yamanni-ryu instructors. They learned from Masami Chinen or his grandfather Sanda but I heard that only Kishaba sensei knows all the Yamanni-ryu katas. Other people may have studied from Masami sensei or Sanda sensei but how many people can really say they learned from them? No one can claim Menkyo Kaiden because there's no such thing. The word doesn't even exist in the Okinawan language."
I am not saying that okinawan martial artists never received these papers, as it has already been pointed out that some of them did. And I am not asking any of you to believe what has been said to me. I myself have no reason to doubt the knowledge and honesty of the poeple I trained with. Even so, given what they've said, I am wondering how many people received these menkyo kaiden in Okinawa prior to World War II, when schools started to get more students and organizations were forming in a big way.
if it really wasn't a common practice, then it might not be so unbelievable that a smaller more secretive style such as Yamanni Ryu didnt give them out, as they were looked upon merely as pieces of paper.