Koryu and Chinese Internal Arts
I brought this topic up in the Aikido forum, but I've been wanting to ask this question (and many others) to the koryu community in particular, so I apologize in advance if this post doesn't belong here, or if people are annoyed at me being repetitive. If it doesn't belong here, feel free to move it to where it belongs.
A friend of mine practices Shinto Muso ryu, and was contemplating adding either Bagua or Chen Taijiquan (my current art) for a number of reasons. He asked me what I thought the effects would be, and I gave him an answer that was based on my previous experience with Aikido, which is, I realize, a completely different family from koryu, let alone genus or species. So I thought I would ask the question to people actually doing both koryu and an internal Chinese art (I'm assuming there are a bunch of you out there) – what is the effect?
In my answer to my friend, I extrapolated from things I had seen in the writings of Dave Lowry and Ellis Amdur, regarding the neuromuscular, pyscho-emotional "personalities" of each art, and how they would potentially enhance or interfere with each other. But I was answering without experience of my own in a koryu. My assumption, and someone please correct me if you feel I am wrong, was that it was probably not a good idea unless you were really interested in going far enough in both arts to not run the risk of dismantling your coordination in one art before getting coordinated in the other.
I'll try to explain what I mean a little more clearly, if I can. The Chinese internal arts, as I've been exposed to them, seem to rely on unlearning habitual patterns of tension, and then practicing new forms of movement without tension, and practicing them for long enough, and with the right intent, that a new form of power starts to be generated that is unrelated to mechanical strength applied by simple leverage – more hydrolic, as my instructor puts it. But there needs to be a significant amount of time spent undoing all of your body's habitual tensions. In my own case, it was habits picked up from a good amount of time doing Aikido, and I've been astounded how ingrained they are.
"Harder" arts, which is how I view the koryu, seem to depend much more on instilling very specific patterns of tension for very specific purposes, some of which would be simply to protect your body from the shock of training. Again, I make this assumption without any experience in these arts, and I would assume that the highest levels of bugeisha don't seem tense at all when they practice. I hope everyone is understanding my use of the word "tension" here.
These ideas led to the conclusion that it was probably not a good idea to start studying an art that requires you to unlearn most of your physical habits, if those habits are essential to your practice of another, potentially much more physically dangerous art (dangerous to practice). Plus, he only has a few years of study in Shinto Muso ryu, so I don't know if this would apply to a more advanced practitioner.
Or am I making too much of it? Could the subtle mechanics and awareness learned in Taijiquan or Bagua also help in koryu practice without interfering or watering it down? In my own experience, practicing Taijiquan to the point that I start to develop any skill also instills a very distinct "personality" to the physical sensation of how I move and relate to the environment, and I wonder how that would translate into the practice of a radically different art. Of course, I do imagine that anything done to improve body awareness and coordination would help the practice of other arts to at least a certain extent.
Does anyone here have significant experience with both types of arts? Am I overthinking the problem? Or have you experienced similar, or different challenges?
Thanks in advance for any insights,
Josh Lerner
Internal and External conflicts
Joshua,
At one time, I tried to learn a Chinese internal art while I was also heavily invested in karate - a very externally-oriented, not too sophisticated system.
What I discovered was that many of the methods that drive an external art are completely contradictory to those that drive an internal one. The breathing, the concepts of force and power, the timing and application of relaxation-tension sequences and other factors were at odds with one another. I eventually gave up the internal art.
Many years later, I began training in a complex aikijujutsu and a koryu weapons art. The style and timing of breathing, method of hip drive, stances and other attributes of karate were completely inappropriate to both arts, and in fact caused enormous hardship during the first several years of training.
Within a few months of beginning the new training, I gave up karate. It was necessary; otherwise, I doubt I'd ever have been able to "re-wire" my neuromuscular system. I have spent the past 5 years trying to undo my previous training. After having wired it in for more than two decades, it has proven very difficult to remove. It has been only in the past two years that I have finally started to "move like a jujutsuka." I'm still struggling with moving like a kenjutsuka. :)
I realize that every person is different and may have different capabilities and capacities for learning and absorbing conflicting sets of movements, tactical mindsets and methods. But, my experience and observations have been that sometimes even two very different arts can cause conflict. It's certainly true that studying two somewhat similar arts can be confusing, but there's a different reason for that.
FWIW