The 1886 judo vs jujutsu matches never happened?
My old Karate sensei told me that they were just a myth.
I've been looking everywhere for info on this but couldn't find any that wasn't based on Dr. Kano's own statement. The deeper and deeper I dig through google the more and more convinced I become that no such matches ever took place. Does anyone have some sort of undeniable proof of these matches?
If it didn't happen why would Dr. Kano lie about it?
Also, I apologize if this is posted in the wrong place, but since this is the Jujutsu sub-forum I figured I'd ask for you guys take on it.
If it would fit somewhere better would a mod please move it?
The famed Tokyo Metropolitan Police matches- or not
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gin
It's certainly one of the more informative ones. I've got more questions about stuff related to early judo's history, I'll start up another thread in a bit.
Not sure the other thread was ever started.
I've collected a more information on the early days of judo since this thread started. It's a byproduct of my main research.
I've probably much of the ground that Jonathan Zwicker covered, and presumably I had a wider net after over 20 years of looking at this stuff. There's no record in the popular press I view.
Is that unusual?
Bear in mind that Kano shihan was popular, indeed a minor celebrity. I have articles in which the press followed an interschool judo match, reported multiple times that he was traveling to someplace in Japan outside Tokyo, his political activities, and often on the front page. But there's nothing I can find on this match.
But what I have found is evidence of Kano shihan cooperating with a number of these famous names to make the new judo as early as 1888. A twenty eight year old, with a six year old dojo, consulting wiht some of the most famous remaining jujutsuka and soke.
Otherwise, I was in a seminar for judo instructiors given by the Tokyo Judo Federation. It's pretty huge, bigger than most national judo federations, and I kind of stand out as the only foreigner. (But at a mere 187cm and >100kg I'm far from the biggest.)
One lecturer asked a question about this supposed event, what people thought of it, and one of the older participants gave a thoughtful response:
Everyone forgets that the great jujujtsuka named in Kano's tale were the soke and most famous practitioners were men in their 40s and 50s who had learned in the kata format of the Edo era, while at that time, Kano's students were mostly in their twenties and did a lot of randori - of course the older, traditional practitioners lost. Japan of the day had not recognized that in the new competitive sports-like martial arts of the day that it became a young man's game, and the game was randori.
Then he noted that Kano did not participate himself. It was not unkind, but just a statement of fact.
After that I found other interesting tales, such as Kano shihan having his ribs broken at 33 years old, the odd story of his marriage, secret teaching one on one for celebrities and a number of other things that the Kodokan has successfully declined to address for near 70 years.
Kano shihan didn't like to lose, that's for sure. One contemporary called him the most stubborn man in Japan. But this one tale looks like a rosy remembrance of a very different event, a very interesting event, but not the one portrayed in the standard Kodokan histories.
Lance Gatling
Embassy Judo, Tokyo
Www.facebook.com/usejc