Shorinji Kempo - Hakko Ryu - Goho to Juho transistions

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Originally Posted by JL.

Gassho!

This is quite interesting. The way I've heard it most frequently is that he learned Hakko ryu jujutsu from his grandfather in Manchuria. Not sure what the source of that story is, though.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

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I started a new thread because I put the choke thread off topic with this. Apologies for that. First off I want to state that I am in no way dismissing Shorinji Kempo with pointing out this connection. Actually I think the combination that Doshin So created of goho and juho is very logical and rational. BUT I personally don't like to ignore holes and I believe martial arts should stay 'alive' and constantly critique their own methodologies. Having just attended the Hombu training after the World Taikai, I know I'm bucking the system and the speech that Yuuki So gave. I agreed with a lot of what she said and the goals of Shorinji Kempo to maintain unity, but at the same time the world is changing regarding information availability and the old world of 'martial arts secrets' no longer exists.

Hakko Ryu was founded in 1941, so Doshin So may have learned joint locking waza in Manchuria, but the actually Hakko Ryu connection was later. According to Hakko Ryu Soke Ryuho Okuyama, Doshin So and a Shorinji Kempo 7th Dan are on the scrolls for Hakko Ryu (in Koryu type arts you sign a register for classes - Hakko Ryu isn't Koryu but they kept some of the formality) (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=81)

Dismiss his negative assertion about Doshin So and the 'pain' of the technique - so common to hear this type of talk dismissing other 'founders'. Ryuho Okuyama studied Daito Ryu, but focused primarily on the jujutsu component, i.e. primarily kuzushi and joint locking throws and takedowns. He didn't really study the 'Aiki' component. Why he 'founded' Hakko Ryu (the style of eighth light) is he was also a shiatsu and Chinese medicine practitioner and he added 'Seiho' and pressure point attacks to his jujutsu (hint.. see the Shorinji connection?) hence in his mind making it a unique system.

I've crossed trained with Daito Ryu, A lot of the Shorinji Kempo waza are pretty much identical the way they are trained. What I see as a 'hole' in Shorinji Kempo is that there isn't a consistent method (that I've seen so far) for training transitions from Goho to Juho. In traditional CMA this is referred to as 'sticky hands' and involves some body methods (Shen-fa).

To end with what I'm getting at is does anyone else out there experiment or play with capturing and utilizing joint locks in a freestyle randori method aside from having 'opponents' just seize your wrist? For example with form similar to Tsubami or chidori gaeshi you can 'stick', grab and roll the hand into a joint lock, but in order to do it effectively and not get yourself punched in the face you have to control your opponents center.

Ryan, as you seem to know about this, can you give a link to a history of Hakko ryu that we can read?

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Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA

Ryan, as you seem to know about this, can you give a link to a history of Hakko ryu that we can read?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakk%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB

gasshou,
Ryan

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Originally Posted by ryama23

To end with what I'm getting at is does anyone else out there experiment or play with capturing and utilizing joint locks in a freestyle randori method aside from having 'opponents' just seize your wrist?

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Doesn't this go against the principle of shushu koju?

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Originally Posted by Omicron

Doesn't this go against the principle of shushu koju?

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Absolutely not, quite the opposite and I guess I'm not describing an encounter properly. You're not attacking first, what I'm talking about is still enacted upon from a defense first position.

To be clear, in 'aiki' arts they've taken the joint locking principles to this 'catch a fist in the air and throw' element for which MMA and other sparring scenarios have completely debunked, i.e. no trained fighter leaves their punch floating at full extension for you to grab, it gets retracted quickly. To this effect here in Seattle when we practice tsubami/chidori blocks as trapping the hand or like in kai shin zuki or han getsu geri you bounce the blocks down to create a soft sticking effect to create the opening for the counter strike (that is as you've improved upon just the basic movement of the waza).

I've trained with Chinese folk who do similar and further engage after the counter strike to then apply joint locks or take downs, but its done so that the trapping of the arm also gains control of your center and kuzushi. But in Shorinji Kempo i've yet to witness this level of 'freeplay' randori with the waza. So I'm wondering does anyone out there practice in this method or is there an actual curriculum training element? If so I haven't seen it yet.

Further I will state that developing that sticking quality to trap full speed strikes is very high level and I'm not even close in my ability.

Gasshou,