Shiseikan Dojo (Sano Matsuo) - Current situation?

Hello,
I am curious about a few things concerning the DR Abashiri (?) Dojo.
First of all, did they recently change their name from Seishinkai to Siseikan?

I understand Kato, Sano and Arisawa left the main Dojo so they could continue to train without getting involved in the political mess? is that true as far as you know?

Another question that bothers me- I recently heard that people that studied under/with Antoninio Certa, and after leaving Certa to train under Kondo, were to return to their white belt rank, no matter their rank was under Certa? does that apply to anyone who belongs to the Abashiri Dojo, including people outside Japan who choose to train under Kondo in the future? And if thats true, why is that? Is it because of some basic difference in the techniques or some other reason?

Are the people in Abashiri and Kondo's students meet together for seminars, tests, or any other activity or are they completely separated from each other?

Sorry for making such a mess and asking so many questions at once. I've been reading the threads on the lineage controversy the past few days and most of it is total news for me!
I hope to get some more information.

Thank you
Gilad Ronen,
Daito-Ryu white belt, Israel.

Hello,

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I am curious about a few things concerning the DR Abashiri (?) Dojo.
First of all, did they recently change their name from Seishinkai to Siseikan?

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When the majority of Daitokan members quit Tokimune's dojo prior to Tokimune's death, they formed the "Seishinkan". This group was mainly formed from members of Kitami, Abashiri, and Kiyosato, under a slogan of "Do not allow the torch to extinguish from the place of its origin". After about 10 years, political tension grew between some of the key members - specifically, between Kato Shigemitsu, Sano Matsuo (now retired), and Arisawa Gunpachi (now deceased). Sano, Arisawa and others - mainly from the Kitami area - split from Kato to form the "Shiseikan", and in the process, also disbanded the Seishinkai. I'm not sure who if anyone is leading Sano's Shiseikan. I believe either Kato or Sano recently passed away though, but can't say for sure from memory.

According to Okabayashi Shogen, a former member of both the Daitokan and Seishinkan, there were disputes over who would be the next Soke, and about who should obtain this license or that license, before Tokimune even passed away. It got pretty ugly, and Tokimune did not designate anyone as his successor in any formal way while he was still in a clear state of mind.

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I understand Kato, Sano and Arisawa left the main Dojo so they could continue to train without getting involved in the political mess? is that true as far as you know?

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No, it appears they left because Kondo was favored by Tokimune to control the Daitokan instead of Kato and the other Daitokan seniors. So these seniors left the Daitokan to form the Seishinkai elsewhere without Tokimune's blessing. This issue has been discussed at great length already, and is documented throughout this sub-forum. Please read through it more.

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Another question that bothers me- I recently heard that people that studied under/with Antoninio Certa, and after leaving Certa to train under Kondo, were to return to their white belt rank, no matter their rank was under Certa? does that apply to anyone who belongs to the Abashiri Dojo, including people outside Japan who choose to train under Kondo in the future? And if thats true, why is that? Is it because of some basic difference in the techniques or some other reason?

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This I don't have the answer to. But the "daito-ryu.com" website formerly used to promote the Seishinkai group as the headquarters for Daito-ryu has now been re-formatted as the "European Daito-ryu Aikibudo Association" under Antonino Certa. Certa claims his "honorary" shihan license in "Nihon Daito-ryu Aikibudo", issued by Sano Matsuo, but claims Tokimune and Kato as his teachers - not Sano! Certa also appears to be acting independent of the Japanese groups now.

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Are the people in Abashiri and Kondo's students meet together for seminars, tests, or any other activity or are they completely separated from each other?

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No, those groups derived from the Seishinkai are not on good terms with Kondo Sensei's group. I believe quite a few members from these groups have now switched over to Kondo's organization now though.

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Sorry for making such a mess and asking so many questions at once. I've been reading the threads on the lineage controversy the past few days and most of it is total news for me! I hope to get some more information.

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No problem. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Thank you, Nathan Scott for your reply!

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Originally Posted by Nathan Scott

Hello,

I'm not sure who if anyone is leading Sano's Shiseikan. I believe either Kato or Sano recently passed away though, but can't say for sure from memory.

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From what my instructor told me- Sano is leading the Shiseikan, and Kato is alive, but unfortunately he is incapable of leading the organization because of his bad health.

We (all the people in Israel that practice Daito-Ryu) are now in the process of enrolling to the Shiseikan with equal rights- we get to keep our ranks and have people to train with in Japan, and some in Italy (and maybe other places I don't know of).

After all the thinking and the conversations I had with Nico (the head of the system in Israel) I reached the conclusion that dwelling in the politics of Daito-Ryu is counterproductive, and the only thing left to do is continue with the training. So thats what I'm going to do.
After the training we had this Friday all my worries vaporized into thin air :)

Gilad Ronen.

Mr. Ronen,

It IS all about the training. Finding the right instructor is more important than finding the right art. If you like your instructor / line, and you like the training atmosphere and methods, then you are a lucky man. Enjoy it while it lasts!

Regards,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uy4nXnjqw
北見　至誠館　（旧誠心会）館長 10 min november 2008

sorry my Japanese is not that good, so maybe someone would translate

Ole Kingston.

here the new homepage for mr Sano

http://www.k-mint.ne.jp/daitou-shiseikan/

Hi All
Here are some videos from youtube where people are doing AikiJujutsu
some are from Daitoryu others maybe not
i am not a judge here
have fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKiF74PQHiw 65 videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB0AFm1u-3I 9 videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZA_8yPRIUg 14 videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sUJpS8w_7A shorinji kenpo " aiki"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF-wJZGPO_A several
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxniV06JNvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3baiqjqZGAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spkaSSMt5_s

please judge for yourself

Ollie, you have no idea how you just made my day by posting the youtube clip with sano and and link to the new Shiseikan Dojos site! I didn't see these before,
Thank you!


Gilad Ronen

Oh, and Ollie, I've just realized you're the person the movie Aiki is based upon! Wow! I saw it a few months ago!
Amazing. :D:D

Gilad Ronen.

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Originally Posted by Ollie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9uy4nXnjqw
北見　至誠館　（旧誠心会）館長 10 min november 2008

sorry my Japanese is not that good, so maybe someone would translate

Ole Kingston.

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Here's a quick run down of what I can translate:

Soshu Matsuo Sano is introduced as today's "Genki (Energetic) Person". He's 67 years old. He introduces the Daitokan dojo in Abashiri as the "root" of Aikido. He then shows the interviewer a plaque that has Tokimune Takeda's name on it. Tokimune was the guy who brought AJJ to Abashiri. Long time student, Ise Nakagawa is then interviewed and we hear about the old days including bojutsu training.

There are 4000 - 5000 techniques in DR AJJ says Sano.
The mothers of the kids talk about how the training helps them.
Sano is shown with his students. One of the guys says that Sano teaches a lot of things that other teachers won't show. Then they talk about an Italian mag with Certa and his group in it. They guys say that Sano is an "international man" - not just limited to Japan. Then we see Sano teaching (traditional singing?) and photos of his performance at taikais. Finally we see a bday party with his family.

Maybe someone else can translate it better, but that's the main idea of the clip.