Takeda-ryu / Ichio Oba (Seibuden) & Nakamura Hisashi (Nakamura-ha)
 

Hello!

Does anyone knows anything about HISASHI NAKAMURA and Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha Aiki no Jutsu, represented in Austria by Siegfried Kobilza or an organization called International Society for Takeda Budo ?
Any links with Aikijujutsu?
Best regards
Yamantaka

I don't know about the Austrian group, but I have a copy of a Takeda-ryu manual from Romania which is affiliated with the Nakamura group. It is my understanding that Nakamura(Takeda-ryu) is mostly represented in Europe by Roland Maroteaux(I could be mistaken). I also have a Japanese Takeda-ryu manual with Nakamura himself. I don't know too much about their history, the techniques are actually quite good. Simple and efficient.

Roger Lake

It is my understanding that Nakamura-ha Takeda does not descend directly from Sokaku Takeda, and therefore could not correctly be called a branch of (or descendent from) Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

I'd have to do some digging through old papers to find their supposed lineage to some relative (ancestor) of Sokaku Takeda, hence the "Takeda-ryu" name. As far as I know, this is a modern or reconstructed style, and I've never heard of any documented or other evidence to support the idea that this style is actually related to Daito-ryu, Sokaku Takeda, or his ancestors.

I have seen some of their stuff and it appears to be a jujutsu style very similar to prewar (1930-40's) aikido, but definitely not an aiki no jutsu system. They used to go by the name Takeda-ryu aikido anyway.

Brently Keen

I believe you are correct Mr.Keen. Definately NOT Aiki no Jutsu. A simple jujutsu system, yes. I am not sure of where they got the Takeda name, but it was not Sokaku from what I understand.

Roger Lake

I am willing to share the information that I have if you would like to e-mail me:

saucier7@hotmail.com

Roger Lake

Does anyone know about this style of Aikijitsu? Is it known in USA, Canada etc...

M.decroix

Found their website in Japan:

http://plaza5.mbn.or.jp/~aiki/emain.htm

Devon

AIKIJITSU(sic) or AIKIDO?
 

YAMANTAKA : From what we see on their website, they begin with some shady connections with Aikijujutsu and then move on to Aikido(!!!), with apparently no connections with any known organization. Seems strange...
Best

Hmmmm....
 

Yes, they are mostly in Japan, with several un-recognized study groups (aside from one) internationaly.

They offer competitions in aikido, weapons, empty hand sparring and freestyle. They also have adopted the dan system, and all the pictures on the site are of students who are teenager and younger (displaying pretty poor form while testing for nidan and sandan).

Their lineage claims to split off from the Takeda family (same line as Daito ryu), but there is nothing on their web page that would substantiate such a claim whatsoever.

It appears to be a very modern system geared towards competition, and enjoyed mostly by kids (judging from the information found on their web pages).

Lots of people claiming lineage to the Takeda line in some form or another.

Interestingly, I just checked the web page of Mr. Martiaux of "Takeda-ryu Moroto-ha" fame, and there appears to be some shared terminology between them. Even the crest used by the "Moroto-ha" and "Nakamura-ha" are similar.

Regards,

Re: Hmmmm....
 

YAMANTAKA : I believe, Nathan, you are refering to Mr. Roland Maroteaux. He was under Nakamura Sensei but it seems he broke apart and Nakamura Ha is represented in Europe by another fellow. And yes the crests are the same. Pretty confusing...
Best

Takeda ryu...again
 

I'm not telling you that this ryu has the TRUTH about aikido and so on... I did train with nakamura, and he is nice.
I may be wrong but as far I remember there is no weapon teaching in Daito ryu. In Takeda ryu they have: iai jutsu, aikido (jutsu), shuriken jutsu, ju kempo, shugi jutsu (tambo), jojutsu (1meter staff).
I think you should have a look at www.takedaryu.com

It seems that daito ryu is a split branch.

Maroteaux is a well known french teacher that began studying hakko ryu (menkyo kaiden) and finally met nakamura and obtained a menkyo kaiden. It is right that he uses a similary crest. He has no connection with japan nowadays.

m.decroix

Hello Mr. Decroix,

Actually, certain branches of Daito ryu do include weapons. It depends on the branch, and what they were taught (or what they developed based off the principles of aiki used).

Information such as this is well documented.

O.K.



The English version of the page is filled with photos like these, lots of shihan, and really creative historical interpretations:



What history book did this come from?

The curriculum and methods the "Takeda ryu" employ are very much modern. Competitions, kyu/dan ranks, jumping side kicks, etc.

I'm sure an art like this would be very appealing to younger enthusiasts.

Thanks for the link,

There is a gentleman living in the U.S. who studied at the Takeda-ryu honbu dojo for 10 years. He does not formally instruct in the art, but he does travel to Europe and assists Mr. Kobliza and Mr. Nakamura in their seminars. The Takeda ryu is a legitimate system and they and their history are recognized as such in Japan by the Koryu community. I will contact the gentleman I mentioned and perhaps will be able to convince him to pop in here and answer some of the questions and address some of the insinuations that have been made.

Mr. Irey,

Thanks for the info. I'd be interested in hearing more about their art. I actually do not have any pre-conceived ideas, aside from an acquired suspician with regards to branches claiming lineage to Takeda Sokaku, Saigo Tanamo, Takeda Shingen...

Aside from being generally suspicious, my comments and assumptions are based soley off the information given in their web page(s). As such clarifications would be welcome.

Regards,

Hi all,

the history of the Takeda ryu Nakamura Ha is also of interest for me, therefore i would appreciate any comments on the subject.

regards

Takeda ryu practitioner
 

Greetings to all in the forum!

I am new to e-budo, and came accross this thread while reading into the discussions here.

I practice Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha (in Vienna, Austria), and would be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can.

regards

eric graham

Re: Takeda ryu practitioner
 

YAMANTAKA : Thank you for your offer, Mr. Graham! The questions have already been presented in this thread. You just have to answer them.
Best

TAKEDA RYU RECOGNIZED BY THE KORYU COMMUNITY ?
 

YAMANTAKA : Where did you read that or from whom did you hear that?
Curious

students of takeda sogaku
 

The following scan is from the martial arts encyclopedia

“Lexikon der Kampfkünste: China, Japan, Okinawa, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, Indonesien, Indien, Mongolei, Philippinen, Taiwan u.a.” by Werner Lind of the German martial arts association “Budo Studien Kreis” (www.budostudienkreis.de/) - ISBN 3-328-00838-1

I apologize to all in the forum who do not speak German, I only have this reference at hand.

The marked section is about some of the students of Takeda Sogaku. I have taken the liberty of marking the line of instructors from Takeda Sogaku to Nakamura Hisashi, (Takeda Sogaku -> Matsuda Toyosaku -> Oba Sachiyuki -> Nakamura Hisashi) and of translating the underlined passage:

“Oba Sachiyuki accepted Nakamura Hisashi as a student in 1951, who himself began to teach in 1959. In 1972, he named his style, which had already broken off from classic Daito ryu, Nakamura ha Takeda ryu and instructs Iaido, Jodo, Shuriken, Jukempo, Koryu Kendo, Tameshigiri and Aikido.”



I myself came to this style through my desire to begin the study of the traditional japanese martial arts, not because I was looking for a koryu. My decision to start practicing in this school was not made on the basis of the web page, but on the basis of my speaking with many of the instructors and watching training sessions.

I myself was skeptical about the claims of the lineage of the school, but to be honest, I made my decision to study in the school on the basis of what I saw, not on the basis of any claims.

I am only now beginning to learn about koryu through my research in discussions like this, and through my research into the roots of the arts that I am learning. So I am most probably very naive coming into this discussion.

What that means especially for this discussion is that I am not at all versed in the history of Takeda ryu, and cannot judge the accuracy of the history of takeda ryu on our home page. But as I am interested in learning about this, I am using these questions as starting points in my reasearch.

To answer the questions/statements in the thread so far:

>>From Nathan Scott:
Their lineage claims to split off from the Takeda family (same line as Daito ryu), but there is nothing on their web page that would substantiate such a claim whatsoever. <<

see above

>>From Nathat Scott:
It appears to be a very modern system geared towards competition, and enjoyed mostly by kids (judging from the information found on their web pages). <<

I am not sure which page you are speaking of, I can attest that I have yet to train with kids. We do offer children's training, but by far the majority of us are adults.

Modern system? I am not sure how this is meant, we use a kyu/dan system, but Takeda Tokimune himself introduced a ranking system (I originally wrote in this post that I thought that Takeda Sogaku had introduced a ranking system according to the encyclopedia above, but I was mistaken).

Geared towards competition: in our school, we do not engage in competition for the sake of competition. For us, the many forms of competition that we engage in is an important form of training. Aside from learning to apply waza correctly in different degrees of "free fighting", one purpose is to develop fighting spirit, another is to learn to handle the stress of a fighting situation.

Another excellent benefit of engaging in competition, especially for me, is for example actually experiencing the importance of concepts such as irimi-tai. Practicing irimi-tai for years, for example, is one thing, facing a partner who is intent on striking or throwing you and not applying the evasive strategies that we learn is another.

To put it another way, when my sensei tells me that irimi is important because it gains me crucial time, takes me out of the line of attack and puts me in a position to apply techniques of my own, I understand this fully with my mind. But that was not enough (at least not for me). When I spar with a partner who is 10 times faster than I am, I suddenly experience with something other than my mind how important it is to get out of the line of attack, to gain a crucial half a second because I cannot block as fast as he can strike, and to put myself in a position where I can (attempt to) apply a technique myself.

When sparring in jodo, for example, it is much more difficult to strike an opponent when you are standing in front of him, because his weapon is in your way. When you step out of the line of attack, it is a different story entirely. Yes, you can also stay in the line of attack and succeed with a nice set of combinations (of your opponent doesn't decide to step in and throw you), but when thinking about fighting with an opponent in a battlefield context, it seems to make more sense to choose an option that will allow you to strike and defeat your opponent in as few strikes as possible, in order to save energy. And the longer your opponent is in a position to fight you, the greater the chances that you will yourself be hit. Excuse the digression, I just wanted to illustrate the learning process that I myself go through when the importance of different concepts that I understand with my mind finally "clicks".

Something that is important to note about the school, especially in light of the fact that the thread started with a question about aikijutsu, is that we are not a school of aikijutsu. We are a style encompassing all of the arts listed in the post of mr. decroix.

Our curriculum is broken down into these arts especially for the sake of making it easier for us to grasp and understand things, but the more you study, the more you see, and the more it is made clear that all of the arts that we practice are based on a single set of principles, which is simply adapted to a number of different situations and weapons.

I personally know of no one in our school that only studies one of the arts, we are all encouraged to study all of them, or at least two or three, because dealing with only one of the arts in the school in isolation is not beneficial. I can attest to this fact, as I began studying aikido, iaido and jodo, and later added kendo and jukempo. My experience in the arts that I had been studying was extremely beneficial in the "new" arts, and the new arts themselves opened up entirely new dimensions in and are leading to a far greater deepening of my understanding of the arts that I have been practicing longer.

Now a question of my own to the group: Nathan Scott seems to feel that the lineage of the art presented on the website is dubious, could he or anyone else on this forum provide any further information on errors in this account, or especially references to literature and other resources in this direction? As I said above, I am just beginning my research into the background of these arts and would greatly appreciate any tips or leads to help me on my way.

I hope that this post is helpful, in spite of my lack of knowledge in the history of the japanese martial arts. I will do my best to answer any other questions, or any questions that I have ignored in the thread up until now if they are brought to my attention.

regards

eric graham

I don't know if Takeda ryu has any relationship with Takeda Sokaku. As far as I know, Ohba Ichio learned Takeda ryu from a curtain Nakamura Keichu Yoshitoshi. Apparently, this school claims that it branched off from Daito ryu during Takeda Shingen's time.

Mistake
 

consultation of the encyclopedia and other sources indicated that it was takeda tokimune who introduced the ranking system in daito-ryu, not sogaku (I bet a lot of you already knew that...)

Re: TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA
 

Souran,

In your presentation to the Forum you stated : "I practice Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha (in Vienna, Austria), and would be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can"
Now you say :
and
This seems like two markedly different positions.

YAMANTAKA : The site in German that you sent us just states the countries where possibly the art is taught and later some of the offshoots of Daito-Ryu (present time), including one that I never saw before (perhaps true, perhaps not) about the Daito-Ryu teacher of Nakamura Hisashi. The story of Daito-Ryu coming from a long time ago is disputed and many believe that the art was created by Sokaku Takeda himself. So to say, like in the beginning of this thread that the art was an offshoot of Takeda Shingen is a little bit absurd. But It appears the story now is direct descent from S.Takeda.

Nathan Scott says :
YAMANTAKA : Nathan San, in my opinion, was very clear. The system appears very modern and not just by the Kyu Dan system. But that was a major breakthrough, since up to modern times, the only system used was the Menkyo system, not concerned with grading but with proficiency in the art's various levels of apprenticeship and the permission to teach. And I believe that Nathan talks about "kids", not in the sense of 6 years old but meaning "young men" (people very much atracted to competition, the basic idea of Jigoro Kano of Judo when he introduced competition in the art).

YAMANTAKA : The point is the school has declared in the past to practice Aikijujutsu, Aiki-no-jutsu and even Aikido. Shouldn't you have a link to DRAJJ to do that?

regards
eric graham [/b][/quote]

bEST

Takeda-ryu
 

Hello Mr. Souran,

As Yamantaka said, my opinions about this style were based exclusively off the information found on the web page posted at the beginning of this thread. If you go there, you will see everything I commented about.

The majority, if not all, the dojo they run in Japan are based out of schools or universities. They hold annual tournaments that look to be focused around grade school and high school kids.

The art is conducted in a VERY modern way, despite their claim to classical roots (which may be true, but remains unsupported).

Your encyclopedia appears to be flawed, since the Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu homepage reports a different lineage line that it does, and the encyclopedia also repeats the mistake of including Choi's name as a student in Daito-ryu.

I'm afraid it is not enough to pick up any book to look for references. Unfortunately, the majority of them are flawed in some respects, and it takes time to learn what the strengths (if any) of each reference are.

In addition to what is written on their webpage, there is also a "gut feeling" (which only translates to "my opinion") that derives from being in the arts for a while. I know this may not be of much value to others, but you will start to develop this as well the more you educate yourself about martial arts and their history.

The Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten lists 21 different traditions of "Takeda-ryu", all of which use the same Takeda family kanji ( 武田 ). All of them are believed to be extinct, except for the Takeda-ryu of mounted archery extant in Kyushu. The specialty of the traditions listed below are quite varied (personal names may be mistranslated):

I think it is safe to assume that the "Nakamura-ha" did not derive from any of these. Furthermore, it is HIGHLY unlikely that there are 43 generations of headmasters for ANY legitimate ryu-ha. This was one of the first things that hit my "gut".

Their web page lists Minamoto Yoshimitsu as the founder, same as Daito ryu, and claims that Takeda Nobutora (just before Takeda Shingen [1521-1573]) "initiated" - which could mean anything - Takeda Katsuchiyo into the art. Then, "since that period [450 years ago], Takeda-ryu aiki-no-jutsu was succeeded by the Kuroda-ke [family line] in Chikuzen-ken (now Fukuoka-ken)".

There is a Kuroda Tetsuzan in Saitama-ken, but I am not aware of his family having been involved with a Takeda family style (he is the head of Tamiya ryu iai, Komagawa kaishin-ryu, and Shishin Takuma [Yodai Kennichi] ryu).

One idea would be to contact Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei. If it was his family line of Kuroda that was supposed to have been involved in the style, he would surely know about it. In fact, he may know even if it wasn't his line. But I doubt you will find out anything conclusive.

Anyway, the above references are all the entries of "Takeda-ryu" arts that are known and considered to have legitimate koryu lineage.

Whether or not you enjoy your training, or if the art is a good art of not, is irrelevant to the issue of it's roots and lineage.

As I'm sure you realize, the Takeda family is one of the oldest and most famous family names in Japan. I'm sure alot of people would like to tie their art to this family (and have tried), which would be an easy claim if the connection to the Takeda family goes back 450 years (typically no way to confirm claims from that long ago).

Good luck with your training. If your curious about the lineage of your art, copy the notes above regarding the Takeda-ryu references found in the BRDJ and ask them which one their art derives from. If you do look into more, I'd be curious to know what you find out and which line they claim.

Regards,

Hmmm...
 

Lots to research, lots to think about. I am curious about the lineage of the art, thank you, Nathan, for the starting points in the search. I will post anything concrete that I can find, but it will certainly take me a while.

I definately have a lot to learn about the histories and claimed histories of japanese martial arts, but that's one of the reasons that I joined e-budo.

To address Ubaldo Alcantara's statement about me on the one hand saying that I will "be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can", and in my next post saying that I am just starting to learn about the history of japanese martial arts is for me not two different positions.

I came across a few threads from people asking questions about Takeda ryu Nakamura ha, and save for one person in this thread who studied under Nakamura in Japan, the discussions in all cases have only involved people who know nothing directly about the art.

So while I am not in a position to provide concrete proof of lineage claims, I am in a position to ask my instructors questions on issues (for example why we use "do" and "jutsu" interchangeably).

I am also in a position relate my experiences in practicing the art, and addressed some of the statements in the thread on the basis of my experience. I wanted to shed some light onto what the school is about, at least what I and my fellow budoka perceive in it. It may be, though, that that was not really the point of the thread in the first place -- sorry if I missed that.


regards

Re: END OF THREAD?
 

Souran,

I'm sorry if you seem to be taking badly what I wrote (you said Nathan, but you refer to my full name...).
Anyway, you may not consider your posts as stressing "two different positions" but, believe me, they are. Up to now, you presented no "instructors' answers" to our questions, you've just manifested your curiosity. Perhaps if you ask Sigfried Kobiliza (the representative for Europe of Takeda Ryu) he'll be able to give satisfactory answers, since you are just able to practice and do not have much knowledge. If you can't, then I believe this thread is over...:smash:
Best

Not quite dead, but after this maybe
 

I am a bit reluctant to continue posting because I myself obviously do not have the knowledge required to engage in this discussion. What that means is that I can relate what I am told, but don't have the knowledge or sources to verify these things. So that is the task that I am ultimately faced with -- but I have to take care of that myself.


Mr. Alcantara, I am sorry if any meaning was sent along with me using your full name and only using part of Mr. Scott's name, I suppose this may have been bad ettiquete on my part. I am not taking what you said badly, as I said in my last post, I began participating in this thread in the belief that my miniscule knowledge may be interesting or helpful. But ensuing exchange showed me that my approach was not at all appropriate for this forum.

As I stated above, I am a bit reluctant to continue posting, but on the other hand feel that I have to finish what I started to the best of my ability.

I did ask my instructors about two of the issues in this discussion.

The first was our use of "do" and "jutsu". Instead of regurgitating what they told me (and messing it up in the process), I will take the liberty of pointing you towards an article at koryu.com that I read after practice last night, in which Diane Skoss says more or less exactly the same thing my senseis told me, namely

http://koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

The tenth paragraph of this article sums up best what I was told. I don't want to infringe on any copyrights by copying it into here.

Second, on the issue of the lineage of our school. This is where I should have asked a read a lot more before I said anything -- sorry. But in the hopes that I am not perpetuating my mistake (because I am just regurgitating what I was told), here is the lineage of our school:

1. Takeda Yoshikiyo
2. Takeda Kiyomitsu
3. Takeda Nobuyoshi
4. Takeda Nobumitsu
5. Takeda Nobumasa
6. Takeda Nobunaga
7. Takeda Nobutoki
8. Takeda Masatsuna
9. Takeda Nobuie
10. Takeda Tokitsuna
11. Takeda Nobumune
12. Takeda Nobutake
13. Takeda Nobunari
14. Takeda Ujinobu
15. Takeda Nobuharu
16. Takeda Motonobu
17. Takeda Nobumitsu
18. Takeda Nobushige
19. Takeda Nobumori
20. Takeda Nobusuke
21. Takeda Mototsune
22. Takeda Nobumasa
23. Takeda Nobutsuna
24. Takeda Nobutora
25. Takeda Nobutomo
26. Takeda Katsuchiyo
27. Takeda Nobukatsu
28. Takeda Takanobu
29. Takeda Takayoshi
30. Takeda Kiyokata
31. Takeda Nobuaki
32. Takieda Mitsuharu
33. Takeda Nobutada
34. Takeda Kogetsuni
35. Takeda Mitsunobu
36. Takeda Takasumi
37. Takeda Ohara Masakatsu
38. Takeda Mitsumasa
39. Takeda Masaaki
40. Takeda Morinosuke
41. Takeda Tadakatsu
42. Nakamura Kichio
43. Oba Ichio
44. Nakamura Hisashi

If any of the participants in this thread are genuinely interested in inquiring into this lineage further, I am obviously not the right person to ask (and I apologize to all in the forum for starting this without having the proper information, even now, to answer the questions posed here).

I myself would humbly suggest contacting Mr. Kobilza directly, or perhaps even better Mr. Nakamura Hisashi himself. I firmly believe in any case that a serious inquiry into a lineage or school best include persons with direct experience in the art. A forum discussion on the Internet with persons who know nothing directly and with one person who only practices the art without knowledge of the history of the japanese martial arts will rarely lead to conclusive answers, I think.


And that sounds like my que to leave this discussion to those more qualified. :smilejapa

Re: Not quite dead, but after this maybe
 

YAMANTAKA : Oh, it's all right! Mistakes do happen, specially in a "cool" medium like this one. Just misunderstandings...


YAMANTAKA : That question isn't really very important. People outside of Japan make quite a fuss about the DO/JUTSU thing. Japanese don't consider it very important and use both terms interchangeably, JUTSU more about technique and DO more about principles, more or less.

YAMANTAKA : Well, I've read a long article by Sigfried Kobiliza himself in a french magazine and it had serious mistakes and errors in its history and lineage part. Anyway, I guess you're right : only through direct questioning of those men we may get somewhere...though I sincerely doubt it. In my opinion, Nakamura Ha is really a modern art , with no real connections with Daito Ryu (by that I mean long term, lineage connections). If Hisashi Nakamura was saying "This is my art, developed by myself. Judge it in these terms", I would say nothing. Every art began that way. But when he intends to portray his art as "an ancient one, with noble traditions", giving no documentation on that, things began to get hazy and are easily subject to severe misunderstandings.
Anyway, thanks for your sincerity
Best:wave:

For information purposes and for research, and for the next to zero who hasn't read the tenth paragraph of Ms. Skoss essay, here it is:

Naturally, neither view is true, and the dichotomy (with or without the values) is not so simple. While the do/jutsu contrast certainly describes aspects of different approaches to any given Japanese art, it simply is not used to neatly categorize and characterize the arts in Japan. Yagyu Nobuharu, headmaster of the venerable Yagyu Shinkage-ryu tradition of heiho, sometimes refers to his art as kendo, even though it is quite clearly classical kenjutsu and not at all related to modern kendo. The two most respected organizations in Japan devoted to the promotion of the remaining classical Japanese traditions (koryu bujutsu) are the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, and the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai. No "jutsu" in either name, yet the membership is comprised virtually exclusively of classical warrior traditions, with names ending in -jutsu. And if one were to use the distinction that jutsu arts are practiced "for real" while the do arts are practiced for self-perfection, you'd find that, in Japan at least, only the police and the military are practicing jutsu. The rest of us, no matter what we might like to think, are actually practicing a "way," since we have no opportunity to face an armor-clad sword-wielding opponent in real life. And some "ways" (whether do or jutsu) include practical methods of "real" fighting.


Mark

NAKAMURA HA and MAROTO HA
 

Dear friends,

Since the name of Mr. Roland Maroteaux, former representative of Takeda ryu, was mentioned in this thread, perhaps it will be interesting to read this note in which he proclaims his departure from Takeda Ryu :

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/8743/fr-procl.htm

[quote] "After the last months’ conflicts provoked by a small austrian group and the Nihon Sobudo Rengokai, so severe they were taken to belgian and french courts, Mr. Maroteaux, in the presence of almost all Takeda Ryu groups in Europe, burned his expulsion act from that school, sent to him by Nakamura Soke, through mail.
With this gesture, he marked his decision to unsubmit to the pressures suffered by him these last months and to keep following his objectives, as he has done in the past. Every practitioner standing by his side, acknowledged that he is the only one with deep knowledge of Takeda Ryu in France and in Europe. That, without him, there wouldn’t be a school. That he was the highest-graded outside of Japan, since 1988, with the title of JODEN SHIHAN in 7 disciplines. That he has nothing else to learn in Takeda Ryu and that his knowledge was transmitted by masters and not by any other means. That, being the holder of 4 shihan titles, he has decided to assume all his work with its corresponding honors.
This warning is sent to all his instructors and students, as well as, to a great number of international experts, who saw him as a legitimate successor of a pure japanese tradition, envied by certains masters."
Best

Hello Ubaldo-san,

Interesting quote by Mr. Maroteaux. However, I wouldn't put too much weight into anything he says or implies - judging from the "interesting" information that he offers on his web page.

Mr. Souran, thanks for the additional information. The lineage you provided is unusually tidy for an art that claims such a long lineage. It is quite strange that the Kuroda family is not listed in their lineage. They should at least a few in there (instead of a few Takeda's) according to the history they provide on the web page.

One theory, judging from the lineage provided, is that the art perhaps started with Nakamura Kichio.

It wouldn't be the first time an art did not know the names of their tradition ancestors past the grandfather generation. Most know where the art was supposed to have come from, and sometimes try to fill in the blanks in the line using assumed logic.

I would also say that you may have better luck discussing this issue with Mr. Nakamura, since you are a student. He quite possibly does not feel inclined to answer such questions to outsiders he does not know, but would probably be happy to discuss the history of his art with one of his own students. One approach would be to assemble a group of interview type questions, translate them if necessary, and request that Mr. Nakamura answer them at his convenience. You could, in fact, publish them somewhere (besides here) if you wanted.

Good luck,

MAROTEAUX - PRO OR AGAINST?
 

YAMANTAKA : That's it, just interesting...Sorry if I gave the impression I was giving much weight to Maroteaux. Quite the contrary, I extremely dislike him and the "misinformations" on his web page.
My only objective was, since his name was posted, to present the other side of the fence...:rolleyes:
Best

Ichio Oba
 

Here is another name that I came across from a number of sources in relation to daito ryu and koryu jujutsu. Anyone ever heard of Ichio Oba? Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

As far as I know, Oba Ichio did not study Daito ryu, but did claim soke of Takeda ryu aiki no jutsu. Although, there are some members here on E-budo might disagree about this school. Also, he did study Kukishin ryu bojutsu from Kiba Koshiro, a student of both Takamatsu Toshitsugu and Iwami Nangaku.

Oba Ichio's students were Sato Kinbei, Takeuchi Nobuyoshi, and Nakamura Hisashi. BTW, Sato Kinbei and Takeuchi Nobuyoshi were students of Takamatsu Toshitsugu and Ueno Takashi.

That's as far as I know about Oba Ichio.

For those curious about this art, their web page is located here:

http://plaza5.mbn.or.jp/~aiki/etakeda.html

Mr. Oba is listed as the 43rd [head]master! That's a long list of successors. ;)

Regards,

Impressive list of students
 

At least he had some impressive students. I also heard from another source that Oba sensei taught daito ryu but I can't seem to find it now. I will dig through my stuff. Oh yeah, Happy New Year everyone!

I don't know how correct this is, but in the 2nd page of this thread there is a picture of a German book that says that Oba studied Daito ryu from Matsuda.

BTW, one of Oba Ichio's students was a famous wrestler called Rikidozan.

Interesting
 

It would be interesting to find out who some of the senior students of Yamamoto, Matsuda, and Yoshida were so that we can validate some claims that have been made and also to give credit to some legit but unknown teachers of Daito ryu.

There are many kyoju dairi students of Takeda sensei and little is known about them. They are their students may have foundsed other daito ryu branches that are legit but little known. The updated list by Mr. Pranin shows quite a few teachers of daito ryu, most that little is known about. Interesting- maybe this is where some of the other saigo groups come from (sogawa, kazuoki for example).

Takeda Ryu???
 

Is this group for real? I'd never heard of Takeda Ryu before...

Takeda Ryu in Romania

From their site:

Takeda Ryu is original from MINAMOTO, the ancestors of Takeda family, a famous un illustre clan seigniorial. At the beginning of the 16th century the clan acknowledged a decline and dicided in two different schools: TAKEDA RYU and DAITO RYU.

Nowadays, TAKEDA RYU enjoys a coming back and a new popularity, thanks to the Master Roland J. MAROTEAUX, 8 Dan Dai Shihan, disciple ofSoke Hisashi NAKAMURA, the 44th heir of this martial arts school.

Best,

Thanks for the link Neil.

Jake McKee