Bogu training question
 

Bogu training

I am a student of Joe Louge's in Erie, Pa. who's lineage is Stan Hart of Mansfield Ohio who had trained under Mr. Oyata for sometime, anyways my reason for writing is that I have spoke with my teacher, Joe, about Bogu training and he, in his opinion, really can't see the benefits of training with this padding on. In his explaintion to me about this, he says that training with pads on and not being able to "feel" the technique is like training with ineffiecent movements while doing kata.
I guess I can also see the point Joe is trying to make about when you spar, you are fighting and not defending, so you are trying to score or hit and by doing so (fighting, getting into a stance and moving around) you are going to in turn try to use power in your punches and be in an offensive state (weakened state) rather than defensive. He has us practice kata over and over, which I love doing, then he will show us the applications to kata and we will then break up in pairs and work these techniques. We do not spar at all. He also tells me that he is training us as he was trained by Stan, who was trained the same way from Oyata, with no Bogu Kumite.

Comments?


Daniel

Fighting involves contact, and therefore pain and shock. Pre-arranged drills, while valuable learning methods, cannot replicate the chaos of actual fighting. By wearing armour you can simulate the realities of actual fighting while minimising the levels of damage sustained.
The ever changing nature of man to man combat is diificult to capture in a form, which is why kata is incomplete without bunkai and then a kind of spontaneous form of sparring. One of the values of methods such as Zen and Taoism to oriental warriors was the stress these systems placed on the here and now and the need to penetrate to the reality of a situation. You might find the letters written by Takuan to Yagyu Munenori of interest in this light.
Harry Cook

Thank you Harry for your comments, Iwas wondering though as I have heard this before......

How has the nature of man changed?

Kata is incomplete without Bunkai, which is why I am so happy to have found a teacher who can interpret these movements into something that really makes sense. Not the "block, punch and kick" theory I was used to in my prior training.

I will look into this, thanks for the insight. I will admit I am at the early stages of my training with Joe and I am open to any comments. Thanks.

Daniel:

In our school only the children fight with bogu on to get them used to punching and kicking and having some fun. For adults, fighting with the bogu on can cause serious damage. Getting hit full force in the face with a bogu mask on can snap the neck around in a way that would not happen if it were not on.

Because the mask sticks out farther than a normal human face, the torque that can be generated can do serious damage to one's neck. In my experience, bogu won't protect you from an attack to vulnerable areas like the groin etc, nor will it protect you from an attack from the back or from a full force attack by someone who hits makiwara properly. I wouldn't want to train with bogu on in my school, to put it another way :)

Just a few cautions and a different perspective.

I hope this helps.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

Do you hit each other full force in the face without Bogu? That also.

That hurts also. Just curious. Thanks.

Re: Bogu training question
 

Joe Logue, a realative of Hanshi Jim Logue of SC?
Anyway Jim trained with Taika Oyata in Okinawa at the Dojo in Makiminato Urasoe San. He had Bogu then, Taika got Bogu Fighting from Shigeru Nakumura and helped him perfect it, Nakumura was responsable for the wide spread use of the Bogu Gear.
As far as the gear goes, many of the strikes in RyuKyu Kempo (Oyata Lineage) are very dangerous if done without proper protection. As are the Tuit Kyusho techniques which are not used in Bogu Kumite, but try taking a full contact blow to the Solar Plexius without Bogu gear...
Take a look at Hanshi Logues website http://kushu.com he is Taika Oyatas most Senior student 9th Dan Hanshi, he will answer any questions you may have on the subject via email which can be found on the site.
Also if you look areound there you will find a section called "The Bogu Experience" its a good read.
Enjoy, and good luck in you training!

No, they are not relatives, but they know of each other and have been at a seminar or two and have met before. That is what I have been told anyways. I was not there myself.

I guess I am just opening up a can of worms here with a question like this. I can respect and somewhat understand how some may want to train with this method or by using a makiwara or heavy bag to train, but IMHO, I do not think that this will train you to hit properly. When I say this, I mean does anyone honestly believe that hitting any of these objects will teach you how to "move" or "shock" the muscle. Not one of these is like hitting or moving an actual person. Not that I hit a person daily, but rather simply practice kata movements over and over again and then doing those same kata movements to them in self defense applications. (When I do have a willing participant) I can hear Joe now when I begin to get frustrated "move like you do in kata" he does not say to me......move like you do when you hit the bag, makiwara or anything else.

You bring up a great point about Jim Logue training in Okinawa with Oyata well before my instructor did, yes they did use bogu equipment then, it makes ME wonder why though, back then, in those days when things were not so well off financially how could these teachers make their art more appealing to the Americans that were stationed over there?? Bogu equipment...tournaments...look at modern Karate today, what sells...tournament style fighting and big trophies. I mean absolutely no disrespect at all, I am just wondering how Shigeru Nakumura trained before Bogu was invented? Probably Kata, right?

I mean I do understand that these are different ways to train and I respect that but it is just like training with nanchaku , sword or sai, when you can't use it on the street. What I can use on the street is my whole body. So why not just use that to defend myself and I train by doing kata and then applying the exact same movements in self defense applications. (Well at least I try, like I said I am still pretty green at all of this.)


Good point there too...let me ask you this, from your statement there. I have taken Tuite/ Kyusho strikes to the arms and neck and some to the chest, some may be very dangerous to strike, so I would imagine Joe would not strike anywhere too damaging, but how else will you know that these techniques actually work if you have padding on? You won't, so I say… why wear it? As far as a training tool in sparring, well sparring is again in my opinion counter productive to what I train for, I do not train to be a fighter, rather I train purely for self defense...if I have the time to stand there and go toe-to-toe with someone who is dancing around in front of me, I have the time to back away and hopefully RUN...that is self preservation right:-) If necessary I will defend myself as QUICKLY and EFFICIENTLY as possible. I may have to find a school near here and just try the bogu experience for myself and EMPTY my own cup, huh. I have in the past done the tournament style fighting so I guess I have an idea of what Bogu traing would be like, other than the full contact aspect.

Here is a question that just popped in my head, people like Jim Logue or anyone else that has been in this system for A LONG time, I wonder if they still put this equipment on or if Mr. Oyata still does? If not, and I would guess they do not, why not? How do they train? Once again I would have to guess they probably train by simply doing kata.

Ed:

Every chance we get :) except we find it doesn't hurt if you smile a lot ;)


Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

I did not say that the nature of man has changed, I was referrring to man-to-man combat.
I totally disagree with your comments re makiwara, heavy bag training. You first learn to deliver power/shock to a relatively static target (makiwara/bag etc) then to a more mobile target (focus pads) then to an opponent. The skills you develop through such training are directly transferable to fighting. If this form of training did not work, then professional boxers, Muay Thai boxers etc etc would not do it. Sumo wrestlers develop thier striking skills on a big wooden post. They are perfectly able to slap/push their opponents with great force in a match.
I don't know if you have ever sen Higaonna sensei hit a makiwara, bag etc, but I know from personal experience what his punch feels like when applied to flesh.
Harry Cook

Good morning Harry,

I understood what you were saying about how man-to-man combat has changed, and I was wondering how so? I am speaking of unarmed combat; I know that weapons have certainly evolved.

I am certain most will as well.

Train first to hit board or bag then a moving bag to learn how to hit a person? Why not just learn how to strike the person in the first place? Why hit an object that isn’t like hitting real muscle as with Bogu? Yes I agree it will help with power, but I train not to be stronger than my opponent, just make him weaker than me. After I have my opponent weakened I do not have to worry about how hard I can punch. Right?



Sure everyone wants to punch like Mike Tyson but who has the time to hit a bag all day, I have a full time job, family and house to care for, I can not find the time to train like a professional boxer, Muay Thai boxer, Sumo wrestler or whatever, I am just an average guy with not much time so I just practice kata…as much as possible which in turn will directly transfer into self defense if needed, not fighting. I am not a fighter.

They shadow box right? Isn’t that similar to practicing Kata?

No, I haven’t. I am sure his punching power is great.

I have seen for myself, people with awesome punching/kicking power and awesome body dynamics for creating explosive power come to Joe’s class to learn Tuite and see them struggle with the concepts of having a loose wrist/tight fist when moving/striking muscle, just like myself. I have to relearn how to strike, because like you I am used to hitting hard objects be it a bag or whatever to make my punches stronger but now I am now relearning how to strike. Why? Because I was taught block, punch, kick to be stronger and faster than my opponent. I guess it is very hard for me to explain if you have never felt or even applied a true muscle moving technique, anybody can hit the muscle. Some harder than others, but not many can effectively move/shock the muscle as I am describing in Tuite / Kyusho Jutsu.

Let me just say this in my closing, practicing Kata alone will not help with the self defense interpretations, you need an instructor that understands the “deeper” meanings of these movements. What looks like a punch, may not be a punch….

Makiwara
 

Dear Daniel:

Just wanted to let you know that some Okinawan Shorin schools do practice hitting makiwara with a tight fist/loose wrist, bent wrist, straight wrist etc. Japanese schools who hit makiwara often have not learned how to hit without leaning into the makiwara and so it looks like a lot of power punching and works best with only a straight wrist.

I learned first hand that people don't always show or talk openly about what they know but some people do. The trick is to figure out who is telling you everything they know (which may not be much) and who is only telling you what they want you to know :). In the latter case, they may not have much to teach you but they don't want you to know that is the case, or they may have a tremendous amount to teach you but aren't certain they want you to learn it!!

You probably already know this but it just came to mind when I read your post.

Not an easy task to figure out which is which!!

Regarding your time constraints, I completely understand. I know of very few (if any) martial artists who are able to train full time with no responsibilities elsewhere.

Best regards,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan

It is the nature of combat which is ever changing ie. it is a fluid, chaotic situation.
Hitting a person rather than an unresponsive target is actually the best way, but in the process of improving your power, technique etc etc you would soon run out of partners. I guess you are referring to hitting vital spots etc, but unless you actually do it for real in your training you ase only working with a theoretical model. It is worth noting that in full contact, all in events no one bothers with atemi waza etc. The Chinese autheor Chin I-Ming looked at vital point use in one of his books published in the 1920s. he concluded that it was an art for low rank boxers, of little practical use.
Harry Cook

I agree, very ugly looking. But man since the beginning of time has had two arms, two legs etc... and has attacked and fought much the same way. Punching, pushing, wrestling, kicking...etc....So, before all this modern bogu, hitting the heavy bag was around, how did people train?





:-) Very true, not many people would stick around for such abuse. We do not train for striking with power with people, we do this thru kata training where as you practice your technique there (i.e. dropping weight, shifting hips and good body mechanics)

I think you are confusing what I am learning with what a man by the name of George Dillman teaches, not even close. I do not practice vital point or no-touch no outs etc...:-)

Kata for punching power?
 

Daniel:

I was curious about your statement regarding using kata for developing punching power. I wonder how that works? In most sports people actually use something with more resistance than what they would normally use, like a heavier ball, puck, hockey stick, blocking pad etc.

How is it that using no resistance increases your punching power?

Please understand, I really am curious what the thinking is behind that. I'm not just being provocative.

Best,
Tim Black
Kokusai Shinjinbukan