Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu

[cxt]

No, not a problem of any sort at all.

Just the word means/implies something that may or may not be accurate.

Many classical ryu from all over Japan, from multiple time periods, contain ryoto techniques.

(Makes sense in that logically a professional fighter would at some point at least explore the use of 2 blades at once.)

I would guess that such techniques are part and parcel of the TSKSR and have been since the Founding.

The situation gets more "murky" in that we don't know (in detail) what Choisi (sp) training consisted of.
Could be that the ryoto was pretty much the same as he learned from his teachers, he could have created them himself thu his practical expereince and training, he could have learned them later.

Or they might have been added at some point in the MANY 100's of years in the schools exsistance.

Not sure that anyone would "knows" for sure----safe bet is its been there most of its history.

Not sure that it matters.

[sven beulke]

I assume that Tenshin Shōdon Katori Shintō Ryū wasn't created out of nothing in the 15th century, immediately providing the full scale curriculum as it is known by now.

Hi!
TSKSR was not created out of nothing! TSKSR was founded on older styles. These style where not organized the same way as the TSKSR, most authorities say that the TSKSR was the first bugei ryuha organized in a similar way as arts like chado, shodo etc. started almost 100 years before. But there has been teachers and pupils before the founding of TSKSR. I would think that most of the curriculum was created by the founder or during the lifetime of the founder Iizasa Chōisai Ienao. Its not sure if there was a forerunner for the techniques of the ryu but TSKSR has a very complex curriculum. Kashima- Ken , a kind of solo-kenjutsu that was trained at the Kashima Shrine could be a influence!
Kind regards

[DDATFUS]

[COLOR=Indigo]since when is Ryotōjutsu a part of the TSKSR?
I still assume that a lot of the system was grown after the founding of the style.

In Ellis Amdur's book Old School, he mentions that the current head of TSKSR is not interested in trying to revive old techniques that have been lost, even if there are detailed explanations of those techniques written in the transmission scrolls. He explains that TSKSR was founded based on the founder's original divine vision, and all the techniques still extant contain a direct transmission of that vision. Anything added later or re-created would lack that essential divine spark. Now, I have no idea how old that attitude is, but if it has always been part of the school's teachings, one would doubt that much new material was added over the years.

The only real ways to know, though, might be to either privately contact some TSKSR representatives and ask them, or to contact someone involved with hoplology and see if any of Donn Draeger's published lectures discuss the development of TSKSR over time.

[Fred27]

You will have to forgive if this is allready common knowledge but I'm sloppy at keeping myself up-to-date with Katori Shinto-ryu current events.

Has Otake Risuke Sensei stepped down as Head-instructor? Is this step-down a complete one or is Sensei still doing some form of instruction, and if so, do he have some sort of title?

Thx in advance

[Fred27]

Ok, shameless bump!

Reason for asking is that I found this article http://www.aikiken.fi/articles.php?lng=en&pg=106
stating

Kyoso Shigetoshi, the current head teacher of Katori Shinto Ryu

"Head Teacher" "Headmaster"?

[Daniel Lee]

Dear Fredrik Hall,

Otake-sensei is the sole shihan of the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Iizasa Yasusada-soke, and currently teaches together with his two sons (as you noted above). You might like to know that he has also recently authored a new book on the school, entitled Katori Shinto-ryu: Warrior Tradition.

[Fred27]

Dear Fredrik Hall,

Otake-sensei is the sole shihan of the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu under Iizasa Yasusada-soke, and currently teaches together with his two sons (as you noted above). You might like to know that he has also recently authored a new book on the school, entitled Katori Shinto-ryu: Warrior Tradition.

Hm..I guess the site I found the "head teacher"-statement on was kinda off eh?

Thanks for the clarification. I've already made a place in my bookshelf for that book by the way

[Cron]

Hi all,

last year I visited the TSKSR Hombu Dojo and saw a calandar about the Shinto ryu, showing Otake Sensei, Katori Jingu, Densho examples,... I asked Sensei for the name of the company printing those calendar, but I forgot it. I only know that the company has their office in South Japan, I think it was Kyushu.

Maybe somebody can help me with the name and URL?

Thanks,

Michael Reinhardt

[Ron Beaubien]

I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but as this topic has been discussed before, I thought it was best to place this information here rather than start a new one.

In 2005, Sugino Yukihiro sensei and his students at the Sugino dojo, started demonstrating at Meiji Shrine under the name Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu with Iizasa Yasusada sensei listed as the soke. This raised a few eyebrows as since 2005 there have been two groups representing the same ryuha, the other being led by Kyoso Shigetoshi sensei, Otake Risuke sensei's son.

Last Monday, November 3rd, 2008, after the demonstrations had finished at Meiji Shrine, I attended the naorai. Following a few speeches, a toast to mark the occasion, and a little food, the various ryuha were asked to stand up and say a few words.

When the time came, Iizasa Yasusada sensei, who was at a table in front of the room, stood up as did the members of the Sugino Dojo. Iizasa sensei proudly identified himself as the soke of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. He then gestured towards the others standing and clearly stated: "These are members of Katori Shinto-ryu's branch dojo: the Sugino Dojo."

I looked at the person sitting next to me, who also had a surprised look on his face, to make sure I heard that correctly and he confirmed it. Iizasa sensei's statement was also not said in private, as there were at least 60 other people in the room, all of them either soke, shihan, or practitioners of their respective koryu schools who were listening to him.

For the record, Kyoso Shigetoshi sensei and the others from Otake Risuke sensei's dojo were not in attendance at the naorai, although they had demonstrated earlier that day. As a matter of fact, they haven't attended the naorai after the demonstration for as long as I can remember, although Iizasa sensei always has.

I'm not a member of the above school and I have no vested interest in the outcome either way. However, conflicting information has been repeatedly published by the school about who is and who isn't allowed to teach the tradition which has caused confusion. I offer the above information in hope that it might help to clarify the situation.

Respectfully,

Ron Beaubien

[ScottUK]

Interesting stuff. Cheers for posting...

[K. Fredheim]

It's not my place to comment on this (so I won't ), but it could be worth noting that Iizasa soke attended Sugino dojo's 80-year anniversary last november. Some pictures from that event can be seen here.

[Max Chouinard]

I followed a seminar with Sugino sensei about a year ago, and from the little I know, there are some technical differences with what is done under Otake shihan (at least from what I saw and read as I never followed instruction from him) and what was done with Sugino's father (from what experienced people there told me, many things got changed). The situation really evolved a lot. A few years ago no one would have dared speaking about non Otake related groups on the web, then we started seeing the Sugino ha stamping and sometimes the Hatekayama ha (where did they came from anyway?) and gradually much more acceptance until the situation nearly turned around completely. Now Otake shihan group seems to be regaining some influence by putting aside some old principles. It seems now that TSKR is full of factions, all vying for legitimacy (Sugino, Otake, Hatakeyama, Sugawara, and maybe to a lesser degree the Aikibudo crowd), and all of them having different cards in their hands. I think a clear response from all the major parties involved (Sugino sensei, Iizasa soke and Otake shihan) would settle this once and for all, but I suppose we won't see that happening until something major happens. Anyway, I should know better than to put myself in another ryu inner politics, as interesting as it seems .

[Stefffen]

Anyway, I should know better than to put myself in another ryu inner politics, as interesting as it seems .

Wise words

[Benkei the Monk]

Thanks a lot for the news from Meiji shrine. They are of extreee interest for the community. Thanks a lot!

[morpheus]

Is the jujutsu portion of KSR demonstrated publicly? I have seen a few photos but nothing more.

Thanks
Jeff