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Thread: New Army Combatives manual

  1. #46
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    Matt..my dad will be at the Ranger reunion in New Orleans late in August. So will many of his old "mates." So will be some military historians who plan to interview/film those who are interested.
    I understand that a few current Rangers from Benning will be on hand to escort the old timers around. (The reunion was planned for last Sept, but the WTC attack nixed most of the attendees)
    The unarmed tactics that my dad shared with me saved my butt more than once during my 20 years as a NYC Court Officer, as well as on the many security jobs I moonlighted during my first 10 years. Not so much the actual techniques, but the mental attitude that he instilled in me.
    I was never in the military service, but from a law enforcement/security viewpoint the WW2 methods are still very pratical. I make this statement after training in many other martial arts for the past 30 years.
    I was also a good friend/student of Col. Rex Applegate of OSS/Camp Ritchie fame and I teach his pistol/shotgun/rifle point shooting methods at LEO seminars. The response has been very positive.
    There are a few men in their late fourties/earlier fifties who have been studying these methods for many years who can teach the finer points of the system. (There were many variations being taugt during the war.) It really has to be learned hands on, as opposed to books/videos, to be fully appreciated.

    Matthew Temkin
    Temahedysa@aol.com

  2. #47
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    I am going to try to get out to the reunion. I am not sure if I will make it. We are pretty busy around then.

    With certain exceptions The Camp Ritchie program is the model for what we are trying to do. We are not teaching combat weaponry and marksmanship, but there is a growing realization that the Army needs a schoolhouse to do so. It will probably not be us, but it will be closely related to us, hopefully under the same roof. Over the last ten years there has been a revolution in marksmanship in the Army. As an outgrowth of IPSC and latter IDPA a more realistic kind of training is becoming the norm. Much of it is just a refinement of what COL Applegate and his guys were doing back then. The only real differences are that with more people doing it over a longer period of time more lessons can be learned.

    As far as hand-to-hand, the major challenges are motivating soldiers to train and providing a format for technical growth. It has never been the case that the average soldier was a proficient hand-to-hand fighter. The main problem is how to motivate them to train. Lets face it most people do not want to do hard physical training. There is always small minorities who are “into it” but that has historically been the limit. Competitions, both voluntary and mandatory are one way to provide motivation. Providing a technical format is much easier. The hard part is not how to train reasonably proficient fighters quickly however, but to do that and at the same time lay a bio-mechanical, technical, and tactical foundation for growth while doing so. Just as I think the guys at Camp Ritchie would have been flabbergasted if they had been able to see Jerry Barnhart shoot, I think the standard of hand-to-hand can easily be much higher.

    Matt Larsen
    1. The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy.
    2. The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

  3. #48
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    Default Modern?

    I have to disagree about modern methods being "better" than the WW2 approach. Especially shooting. I just returned from giving two Applegate point shooting classes at a regional training conference for IALEFI. Once again I was told by some very impressive shooters that this was the fastest, most pratical method of shooting that they had ever seen. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly--and I mean a matter of hours--the technique can be mastered.
    I also did a short class on knife defenses which was also well recieved.
    I hope you can make it to the reunion and meet some of the old timers. They will be happy to let you pick their brains.

    Matthew Temkin

  4. #49
    Zartosht Guest

    Default for SFC Larsen

    Sergeant,

    First, thanx for the link.

    Second, have you ever trained with Gunny Marero [sp] or Professor Holifield [sp]. I can't remember the spelling of their names. I trained with Holifield in McClellan when I was in OSUT in 1997, for MOS 95Bravo.

    I trained with Marero for a few days at FT LVN when he came to train our SRT team in CQB techniques. I also saw him on the Tazer video when we got our Tazers in.

    I was quite impressed with Marero, and I had more time to train with him than I did with Holifield. Holifield seemed to be a little arrogant, but, I was in training at the time, and he's a combat vet, so how else would he have seemed at that time?

    I was wondering if you had the oppurtunity to train with these men, if so what were your impressions of them? Who else have you trained with in the Army side of the house? Who would you reccomend that I train with CONUS and OCONUS? I move around the world a lot, so I'd be interested in knowing both. If you know anyone out in Asia thats worth training with, please let me know.

    There is a decent group of guys in the Bangkok Fight Club in Sukumvit. I met an Italian instructor up in Chiang Mai who is an excellent fighter, but, I'm looking for something different, so if you know anyone CONUS or OCONUS who you enjoyed training with, please let me know, I'll make my rounds.

    Keep your head down, and thanx in advance.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Modern?

    Originally posted by mt2k
    I have to disagree about modern methods being "better" than the WW2 approach.
    Matthew Temkin
    Shooting has always been a top concern in SF and, in lieu of current events, even more so. The methods and principles of yesteryear have certainly been refined to adapt to changing weapon capabilities and varied engagement distances. Advanced shooting techniques are practiced until your hand cramps and each soldier shoots several thousand rounds per week for a one month period. This takes place quarterly and is one of the reasons why SF has had such success in the recent conflicts. Adding to that, schools such as Blackwater and Mid South are also part of the training and they bring forth some excellent shooting principles and techniques. There is no doubt that these have had their genesis in the past, but they have been improved upon. There is nothing wrong with this development; it is just the natural order of things. Unfortunately, the conventional side of the house has not had the opportunity to train with this same focus and intensity on the subject of shooting. A dedicated course is indeed needed to provide them with this instruction.

  6. #51
    Zartosht Guest

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    They definately need something other than the BRM that they are teaching to the average soldier. In fact, I think the Army overall needs to start applying the "train as you fight" phrase more rigorously to all that they do.

    I don't particullarly like Rummy, but, I do agree with his policies on Force relocation. They've needed to be relocated for a long time, and its nice to see that someone is finally doing it.

    I would like to see an overall change in the way we do things, with more emphasis on unconvential tactics. A lot more emphasis. In case the Pentagon has not noticed, we are not fighting a conventional war, and they should have learned from the South East Asian conflicts, obviously they didn't.

  7. #52
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    In case the Pentagon has not noticed, we are not fighting a conventional war, and they should have learned from the South East Asian conflicts, obviously they didn't.
    I think they did. Remember Afghanistan? How long did Iraq take to fall before us? War does not prove who is right, just who is left. As for Saddam, he doesn't have much left in terms of his gene pool, homes, Army, or positive cash flow.

    I think we have seen some of the most brilliant military victories of the last 100 years. Yes, we are having problems, but war is not a chess game.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  8. #53
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    True, the USA did whomp some hiney and they did oust the controlling forces in said countries (for the moment).

    Before back-patting, there are a few problems as to what *is* left:

    1) Bin Laden
    2) Hussein
    3) weapons of mass destruction.

    These things that are left are going to be a problem later on, like you said- problems.

    -Russ

    PS...the link to the manual isn't working anymore....whats up?


    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    I think they did. Remember Afghanistan? How long did Iraq take to fall before us? War does not prove who is right, just who is left. As for Saddam, he doesn't have much left in terms of his gene pool, homes, Army, or positive cash flow.

    I think we have seen some of the most brilliant military victories of the last 100 years. Yes, we are having problems, but war is not a chess game.

  9. #54
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    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    I War does not prove who is right, just who is left.
    Nice expression. Did you make it yourself?
    Roar Ulvestad

  10. #55
    Charles Choi Guest

    Default link to video

    I recently discovered a link to a short clip that explains the objectives of the program as explained in person by Matt Larsen:

    http://www.graciemiami.com/videos/en...as/rangers.wmv

  11. #56
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    See also "Martial Arts: The Real Story" (Pacific Street Film, 2000) and "Martial Arts Meets the New Age: Combatives in the Early Twenty-first Century American Military" in *Martial Arts in the Modern World* (Greenwood, 2003).

  12. #57
    aterventus Guest

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    Hi,

    I'm new to this forum, but have been following the combatives
    discussion with great interest, and found it quite awesome.

    Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had information about the
    "Warrior Tae Kwon Do" combatives program developed by the 2nd Infantry Division in South Korea.

    I recall seeing an article about it in a karate magazine a couple of years ago, and then coming across occasional mentions of it on Army websites.

    I was looking for information regarding the techniques they teach,
    POIs, suggested training schedules and so forth.

    Steve

  13. #58
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    Default TaeKwonDo

    The TaeKwonDo program was the initiative of one brigade commander. His intent was mostly to more fully integrate the KATUSAs into their units and make the soldiers more aware of the Korean culture. Of course there are obvious PT benefits.

    The program survives in Korea, but there is no bleed over into the rest of the Army because the reasons to do it do not exist outside of Korea.

    Matt
    1. The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy.
    2. The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

  14. #59
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    Mr. Larsen -

    I have been endeavoring to implement Combatives training IAW the manual in my office. Thus far it has been fairly successful (though given the our MOS - 27D JAG - the motivation level has been less than stellar), but I had a few questions regarding my understanding of some of the information in the manual, as well as wanting to get your take on our program.

    Could I contact you via official email so I can pose these questions to you? My personal email is wolfden68@hotmail.com if you care to email me there so we can exchange official email addresses...
    Matt Stone
    VIRTUS et HONOS
    "Strength and Honor"

  15. #60
    0853517 Guest

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    This manual is a copy of the brazilian manual.....

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