Ninpo and Ba-gua

[cjl108]

I was just searching around the net and found that Sato Kinbei was a 4th generation lineage holder of Ba-Gua (not to mention proficient in other internal arts). I don'tremember what Hatsumi sensei's connection with Sato Kinbei is, or Tanemura sensei's connection, but I know there is one.

So the questions are:
-Does anyone know if these internal arts influence the x-kans taijutsu?
-Has anyone specifically trained under Sato Kinbei's dojo with chinese internal arts?
-Has either Tanemura or Hatsumi ever spoken about these internal arts and their principles in relation to taijutsu?
-Does anyone have any history on Takamatsu and one of the internal arts? (please share if you do!)
-Does anyone have any first hand experience with these internal arts and taijutsu together? (I would love to hear your experiences!)

any input would be great!!!

Cory Leistikow

[Kevin Geaslin]

Sato Kinbei sensei studied Hakkesho (Bagua) of the Li Zi Ming line, as well as Taikyokuken, Hakkyokuken (Zhang Zhong line), and Kei I ken. You can read more about his teachers at www.jujutsu.com

Sato Sensei created a style called Daiwado, which is heavily influenced by Bagua, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu (perhaps Gikan Ryu?) I've only seen it in books, looks very interesting though.

[mrmonkey]

Funtionally there should be very little
difference in the application of good
solid authentic Japanese budo and Bagua Zhang,
or TaiChi, or Hsing I.

They seem to all come from the same root,
which is India through China.

[cjl108]

Originally posted by mrmonkey
Funtionally there should be very little
difference in the application of good
solid authentic Japanese budo and Bagua Zhang,
or TaiChi, or Hsing I.

what about non-application teaching methods within these internal styles , like standing post- used to build qi etc. Or circle walking from ba-gua, which originates with taoist meditative practices, and the nei-gung from these internal styles.

I agree that at the highest level of budo, these principles are there and integrated, but the internal styles tend to emphasize them earlier on in training. Most taijutsu I see has a lack of heaven and earth connection, most don't know how to ground properly to disperse an attack (myself included), etc. I believe that just by training in proper taijutsu, these principles are inherent and will grow. however most people that I know that do qi-gong(or any type of nei-gong) and taijutsu, these principles are understood and integrated quicker.

I am curious if people use these internal teaching methods with their taijutsu. Do others use standing/walking methods of qi-gong to help their taijutsu? If one practices these internal methods, will it change one's taijutsu so it is no longer "Bujinkan Taijutsu" or "Genbukan Taijutsu"?

Just curious about other's ideas

Cory Leistikow

[mrmonkey]

My Taijutsu would be perfect if it weren't for one element.

me.

I tend to focus more on what I learned in my limited Tai Chi study.
I am only an appreciator of Bagua based on what I read and see other people do.

There is an inherent anti-intellectualism that I see in most martial artists here in North America, that doesn't support the formation of questions of a type that lead to the formation of "internal martial arts."
Often people just assume that with enough mediocre practice you will get it, and that what they have is the true art. The essence. They cannot use words to communicate what they feel and believe, so they assume that such a thing is impossible.

As you have stated, it's all in the training.
Since most organized training I have engaged in is laissez faire, and half-hearted, I feel it is neccessary to emulate the better Japanese and Chinese practioners I know. And practice more often with people who value martial art that functions on the basis of it's original purpose. As opposed to as a social hobby filled with pseudo-intellectualism, petty drama and political back biting.

So the training is also used to stimulate questions that lead to conversations of a nature that lead to helpful metaphors and paradigms for describing what we do.

Linking such ideas back to universal principles
in nature would seem a logical step after that,
wouldn't it?

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu can contain all the elements of everything.
It is a method from which you create "your martial art".
I am in need of making it work for me, learning all that works for me at first and going back again and again until everything that doesn't work is fixed in me so it does.

Thank you for starting such a stimulating topic.
What Martial Art do you study Cory?

[cjl108]

Yes, I too see the need of making budo taijutsu "one's own art".

I have a wide range of martial arts backgrounds, but for the past 7 years I have been studying with the Bujinkan. I have a good friend who studies hsing-i ba-gua and tai ji, and we have been good friends for 4 years, so our topic of conversation more often than not turns to martial arts and philosophy. We both came from very different viewpoints on the whole "which is better: internal/external" debate and over the past few years we have come to middle grounds and mutual acceptance/understanding which led to both of our interests in each other's arts.

I was enrolled in TCM school in LA and as a requirement, had to study taiqi and qi-gong. Never did my world shift like it did after steady practice. The problem has been how to integrate it with Taijutsu. For most chinese internal arts, there were certain sets of qi-gong/nei-gong for the art that "fit" that art. they were specificly designed to that system of moving. So my concern has been "how do you develop these internal energies so you taijutsu becomes better" I fugured if you do tai-qi, your taijutsu will start to look like tai-qi, and if hsing-i your taijutsu will start to look like hsing-i. I want my taijutsu to look like Hatsumi's!!! that is what Bujinkan Taijutsu is to me! ...Granted, we have very different body types, so we will inherently move differently, but It can be Bujinkan taijutsu.

So this is where Ba-qua comes in. (not to mention I am fascinated with the i-ching) Dong hai chuan (the founder of ba-gua-zhang) didn't have a certain "system" of ba-qua. It was a mixture of some taoist circle walking meditation(qi-gong) and other arts he picked up prior to the taoist stuff. IT was only after he practiced walking in circles for years, that he integrated the palm strikes from his earlier styles. The most amazing thing about his teaching was that he only took students who were already masters at an art. He then took the principles of his circle walking and fit it to each individual student. That is where the many different styles of ba-gua come from. It is the circle walking qigong (and single/double palm change) mixed with other chinese arts which are now, chen-ting hua style, yin fu style etc.

So I have been very interested in ba-gua and these principles and how it can make my taijutsu better(though I do believe that just proper training with a good teacher will give an average student enough for a lifetime) but I got really excited when I found that Sato Kinbei was a 4th generation lineage holder of Ba-gua. So I wonder if Hatsumi sensei studied some specificly internal nei-gong, or Takamatsu sensei.. I have heard that he studied chinese styles and even taught them. If he did study them, did those principles get ingrained in his taijutsu and get passed dow to us? These teachers were able to master so much (takamatsu sensei/sato kinbei/hatsumi sensei) , it is amazing

So it brings me back to, will ba-gua help or hurt my taijutsu. I believe it would change my body, and my taijutsu would therefore change. But who knows...maybe hatsumi sensei sees something I don't(maybe??? I am sure he does )maybe these internal arts change the body/actually morph the body in a certain way . I know Hatsumi wants us to be natural, maybe qi-gong isn't natural....who knows!!!

I am interested to hear others views... sorry if I have too many run-on sentences... just get excited sometimes...

Cory Leistikow
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

p.s. Eric, you said you had some tai-qi practice... my little exposre to it definately made me more aware of my spine and its connection to heaven and earth...not to mention how it changed my understanding of power from the legs(earth) .... I am interested in how your taijutsu has changed with those principles....also do you have any standing practice??? I have started to take the idea of standing post, and instead hold a kamae... get in ichimonji and sink, relax, stack the spine, hips open, sacrum dropped, head suspended and mind in the dan-tien, etc.... also just like standing wu-ji but shizen instead (not much difference in my opinion)... thinks like that any thoughts?

[Bard]

Hello there!

While my exposure to BaGuaZhang has been rather limited, it is being taught in the Genbukan. Soke Tanemura is a 5th Generation Grandmaster of BaGuaZhang. Go here for more info:

http://users.skynet.be/genbukan/about.htm

According to an interview with Soke (Tatara Magazine), he first wanted to learn Tai Chi, but Sato Kinbei Sensei told him to do Bagua instead because while good for the health it was also a potent combat art.

For those who didn't see it, there was a lengthy article on Bagua in the latest issue of Inside Kung Fu which talked a lot about the combat aspect of it.

Be well,
Bard Titlestad

[Filip Poffe]

Mr. Leistikow,

You can find some information about Sato Kinbei Sensei here : http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/about2.htm

Another story that can be found on the Internet is this one :
"When Takamatsu was twenty years old, he ceased working at his father's factory and left to China, where he wanted to test his skills. He went there across Korea, where he met teacher Kim Kei-mei-a and he learned from him. Later he mastered eighteen Korean and Chinese martial arts."

and

"Takamatsu had been a number of things in his life, including a bodyguard to the Chinese Emperor."

Yes there's true relationship between the Chinese martial arts (like Pakua, ...) and Jujutsu/Ninpo.

All the best,

[mrmonkey]

For most chinese internal arts, there were certain sets of qi-gong/nei-gong for the art that "fit" that art. they were specificly designed to that system of moving. So my concern has been "how do you develop these internal energies so you taijutsu becomes better" I fugured if you do tai-qi, your taijutsu will start to look like tai-qi, and if hsing-i your taijutsu will start to look like hsing-i. I want my taijutsu to look like Hatsumi's!!! that is what Bujinkan Taijutsu is to me! ...Granted, we have very different body types, so we will inherently move differently, but It can be Bujinkan taijutsu.

-----I tend to look at middle aged and older men and women doing these things to see what the art really looks like at the core. Especially when they are "freestyling."

So it brings me back to, will ba-gua help or hurt my taijutsu. I believe it would change my body, and my taijutsu would therefore change. But who knows...maybe hatsumi sensei sees something I don't(maybe??? I am sure he does )maybe these internal arts change the body/actually morph the body in a certain way . I know Hatsumi wants us to be natural, maybe qi-gong isn't natural....who knows!!!

-----If you let it hurt you it will hurt you, if you let it help you, it will help you. Each art has it's training methods, and songs and stories, and often these are mistaken for the martial art itself.
The difference seems to be that the internal arts are linked together more often to fit the most pathological and safely stressful case to build the body and educate it in good safe movement simultaneously.
If you keep the mindset of the internal arts alive it will enliven your taijutsu. If you try and Bruce it up....god help you. ; D

p.s. Eric, you said you had some tai-qi practice...

---honestly not that much...a year on and off. I love the art, and study it through friends and from afar currently.
---The guy who taught me, knew I could take hits and fall and do chin-na stuff so he was happy to have someone big to work over after class sometimes. He was an excellent instructor and very intelligent so we could discuss this stuff for hours.
---My affinty for sword work has drawn a few tai chi people to me, and that is worth hours of fun. ; D

my little exposure to it definately made me more aware of my spine and its connection to heaven and earth...not to mention how it changed my understanding of power from the legs(earth) .... I am interested in how your taijutsu has changed with those principles...

-------Intellectually it has broadened everything.
-----I delve into the I Ching and the TaoTeChing for inspiration the same way I review old videtapes and catch somethng new every time.
----The Tai Chi Classics and the songs of Bagua are chock full of wisdom.
-----Tuttle has a book on Tai Chi By Cheng ManChing and Robert W. Smith, that kicks serious butt. The application section has the old guy in postures I see all the time being done by our Soke.
----Mostly my legs are like water, and my body is like a boat in them.
----We should take anything more specific off-line because it's not fair to use this bandwidth up and give away too many trade secrets. ;D
----Ancient Chinese Secret, huh?

also do you have any standing practice???
I have started to take the idea of standing post, and instead hold a kamae... get in ichimonji and sink, relax, stack the spine, hips open, sacrum dropped, head suspended and mind in the dan-tien, etc.... also just like standing wu-ji but shizen instead (not much difference in my opinion)... thinks like that any thoughts?

----Hmmm...well Wuji(no extremity)...there seems to be no difference and then there seems to be a world. I am of a different mind than most about Kamae. they are just interesting positions that are ideals of moving rest or ideals of transit.....like intersections and drive through window lines, not statue poses. I like reviewing them by moving through them. and standing them in constant(albeit small and slow) motion.



---this is fun Cory....
---feel free to PM me about this if we have to go into more application oriented depth...or just for fun.

[garren osborne]

this is a thread with fascinating potential!

In my experience ninjutsu is as much an internal art as tai chi, bagua and aikido (and wing chun?)and they all have certain principles of body mechanics and psycology in common as well as destinct differences. My background in martial arts has ranged from an extremly hard style of chow gar praying mantis to sahaja yoga meditation (which i consider is a martial art in the deeper sense)but my main physical practice is ninjutsu for the following reasons. One of the defining characteristics of internal arts is the use of the chi/qui/ki/prana system and its development. To me all the internal technology is in ninjutsu but it is down to us to explore this and many other aspects. For example balance for a ninja is very important ive practiced hicho and other kamaes on differnet surfaces as chi kung postures including on posts, up turned bricks and railings and through this very natural exercise i have eperienced as much if not more opening of chi than in my previous 5 years practice of tai chi etc + gained a huge amount fun learning to stand and move in nature. What ive found is that chi can be activated by a state of mind and natural breathing and have experinced this while just walking along a beach and during the intensity climbing a crag. I feel this is why most of these arts have deep spiritual aspects at their heart, if we experiment in a spirit of openess and honesty the body, chi, and spirit will intergreat naturaly. garren osborne

[cjl108]

Great stuff everyone!!!

That's very cool that Tanemura sensei teaches ba-gua... How much does he teach it? Is it a standard in the Genbukan curriculum?

Eric, you are right about the "if you let it hurt you, it will." I think that it is important than no matter what art or arts you study, make sure it has those principles that you want in your life. If Taijutsu is an extension of your life in a most natural way, and one practices another art with emphasis on health and proper alignment and a good heart.... I don't see how you could go wrong...

I am of a different mind than most about Kamae. they are just interesting positions that are ideals of moving rest or ideals of transit.....like intersections and drive through window lines, not statue poses. I like reviewing them by moving through them. and standing them in constant(albeit small and slow) motion.

Though I too believe that kamae are not static, I do believe that they are keys that hold principles, inherent in the "spirit" of the kamae. -- In th little tai-qi I have done(chen - short form), we would hold ward-off, brushknee, etc for quite a while(til it felt like my legs would explode), holding the basic principles and keeping the mind in the dan-tien. we would then try to "link" the poses while maintaining those principles... it is just easier when standing still to understand those principles... but of course standing still is just a tool, if you don't practice those keys while moving, the tools are useless...

But contrary to that, ba-gua too believes that static poses should not be practiced... as far as I have seen, the most "basic" form of practice (like standing in wu-ji in tai-ji) is walking the circle(somethimes fast, sometimes slow). so they too have those principles that aren't practiced staticly.

The Tai Chi Classics and the songs of Bagua are chock full of wisdom.

yeah, the classics are great, but I have never seen the songs of ba-gua!... are there copies floating around on the net? or do you have a specific book to recommend?

Also for the aikidoka out there, Kumar Francis(ba-gua, qi-gong)of California studied with Ueshiba sensei for a couple of years and believed that sensei studied ba-gua while in china and that is where much of his explosive, spiraling power came from(he states it as opinion, not fact). You can find that exerpt in one of his books(I forget ) ... which I highly reccommend all of his books, Opening the 9 gates(not the book with the aikido reference) is great as are the rest of his books!!!

Again, thanks for the links and info...

fun stuff!!!!

Cory Leistikow
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

[Jeffery Brian Hodges]

That's very cool that Tanemura sensei teaches ba-gua... How much does he teach it? Is it a standard in the Genbukan curriculum?>>

When I was in Japan, the study of Bagua was on sunday mornings, with chi kung first, then to nei kung circle walking to kinnajutsu, etc, sunday evenings was for shuriken/instructors,etc, each day and night had an area of study, for example ninpo taijutsu, jujutsu, bikenjutsu, bojutsu, pakua, etc.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho

[Kat]

Hey there
Great thread great posts,thanks to all
I am down here in OZ and have practised several BGZ and Yiquan.Recently I became interested in Bujinkan after meeting serval practioners.
While I think the movment is ofcause different, your emphasis on continous motion and relaxed motion holds true (according to the BGZ stlye I practise)to the priciples I am taught.Our particular school also practises a type of Henka(s?),variation upon variton within partner work.I understand that this is a difference between Bujinkan and Genbukan but as of now I have only been exposed to Bujinkan(not through W Roy).I should say that BGZ has a lot of variation from stlye to stlye,unlike the Ninpo that I have encountered.Many of the styles I have come across focus purely on forms with little partner work or sparing.
That said I think very highly of the health benefits of circle walking and related medative practises and would think they could only add to your training in many areas.
If any one could give me a contact to any Australian Genbukan I would be most appeciated.

[Kat]

OOPS sorry new to this site
Andy Cattermole

[John Lindsey]

Some of you might have seen the video produced by Sato Sensei that showed actual films of Li Zi Ming. The majority of the video is showing techniques of Sui Yunjiang. His website is at: http://sol.spaceports.com/~asiagirl/bagua/sui.html

I had always heard that Sato Sensei was made a grandmaster of this style, but wasn't sure what that exactly meant. On the video, Ming's widow is interviewed and said that it was true. Then Sato Sensei shows two stone seals/stamps that are supposed to also signify the grandmastership of the art. I am not sure if others where also given mastership or not, but there seems to be no doubt Sato Sensei got it.


From Sui's website about the video:

In that same year, the Japanese Baguazhang Research Association and the Japanese Gai Zhi Company came to Beijing in order to make a video series of Sui Yunjiang's Baguazhang for distribution in the Japanese market. There have been many articles about him and photographs published in Japan's Martial King Magazine, as well as periodicals in other nations such as Switzerland.