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View Poll Results: Keeping black belt in a new martial art

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Thread: Black belts from other martial arts, learning Aikido

  1. #61
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    Default Grade Recognition

    No need to mention who but I received an e-mail because of my comments on this thread basically asking why my organization didn't answer a request for recognition of a non-JAA members ability in Tomiki Aikido. I answered with what I thought was a reasonable and clear response to which I got something along the lines of how Some people can't see that it's all Aikido.

    I was a little put out by the this but wonder how far off the mark others think I am.

    A black belt from another organization comes to my dojo and I will place him according to his rank in my line-up. A certain more illustrious personage (you know who you are) from another organization conducted the bow out last time he visited (and if he's reading this he's expected for a return visit). This is what I mean when I say that its all Aikido.

    However, the rank itself of these people is not transferable. It represents the relationship to your teacher or the lineage your teacher chooses to subscribe to. For my teacher to award a rank of anysort you must have spent time training with him or a teacher in the organization he heads.

    I expect the same treatment if I went to another organization, even something closer to what I do now than let's say the Aikikai. It would be completlely out of the question for me to assume that my rank is transferable.

  2. #62
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    Spot on Peter...

    I train with some of the people from Yamaguchi Sensei's lineage from time to time. They respect the rank my teacher gave me, and allow me to wear my hakama (I don't even usually wear it for yoshinkan training ). But if I was to join their dojo guess what...I'd start where the teacher told me to start, even if it was at the beginning. Just the way it is, and the way it should be. No problems with that here...I'm surprised someone wouldn't understand that.

    Ron

  3. #63
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    Default

    I haven't read through this thread, so this may have been covered, but Yes, spot on. Guests are respected according to their rank and skill (unless they prove otherwise). Rank in another style may be considered when joining a new organization, but in the context of creating a new teacher-student relationship. For example, I know of cases when someone joined the Aikikai and was offered rank one level below their rank in their previous organization, with the promise that they could test for their previous rank after one year. This gave incentive to "repatriate", with consideration to learning the curriculum and style of technique of the new teacher. This would be considered a special case situation though, not to be assumed as a prerogative.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  4. #64
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    Default

    I'd actually have a much easier time testing for the aikikai than the shodokan...I already know the former's nomenclature, protocol, etc. pretty well. If I joined a shodokan dojo, I'd be starting from scratch. Same thing for a ki society dojo. Doesn't mean you lose your investment...just that you are doing something new!

    Ron (new things goooooood)

  5. #65
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    Default

    Originally posted by BC
    In our dojo, it doesn't matter if you have ranking in other systems and are just starting in aikido, you wear a white belt. As far as other aikido styles, it depends. If the person has yudansha ranking from Aikikai Hombu dojo, and presents proof (such as his yudansha book), he can wear his black belt and hakama. If he is a yudansha from non-Aikikai, I believe they have to wear a white belt. Keep in mind these rules were set out by our late Sensei, a very traditional Japanese man. I remember a woman who was previuously a yudansha in Yoshinkan who started over as a white belt in our dojo.

    Another time several months ago, some guy shows up at our dojo and says he is an Aikikai-ranked yudansha from an African country. He wanted to wear his black belt and hakama, but couldn't/wouldn't provide proof. The instructor calmly explained that without proof (yudansha book, letter from instructor, etc.), he would have to wear a white belt and no hakama. He also told him that didn't mean that his skills wouldn't be recognized. In fact, if his skills and abilities were genuine, chances were that he might get fast-tracked through the ranking system. This guy still insisted that he should be allowed to wear his belt and hakama. Was politely told no. This guy came back for several days after that to watch class and try to convince whoever was instructing that day why he should be allowed to wear his black belt and hakama. Each time he was told he was welcome to get on the mat and practice in a white belt, but - no proof then no black belt. He finally gave up. The consensus was that he most likely was some guy who just wanted to be able to claim to being a black belt.
    I just remembered an update to this story. Several weeks later, this guy finally gave in and agreed to practice with a white belt and no hakama. Turned out he had very limited abilities in aikido, and only recognized a few techniques. Even then he didn't execute those correctly, and was constantly trying to muscle his way through techniques. Eventually, he started the annoying trend of getting especially rough with female members. This was swiftly addressed by the instructors, who would switch him to new partners and/or "demonstrate" to him why his behavior was innappropriate. Eventually he stopped showing up for class. No loss whatsoever.
    Robert Cronin

  6. #66
    sung ho cheung Guest

    Default

    An interesting thread...here's a little tale...

    Some years ago, I was the class 'sensei' - simply because I was the most senior rank present at that particular class. I was a blue belt. A new guy joined us that night, and he was sporting a white belt. It didn't take me long to figure out this guy was way in advance of me, so I asked him if he would lead the class. He was really reluctant to do so. When I pressed him, he explained to me that he held a nidan in tomiki style, and as we were an akikai style dojo, he did not think it appropriate to a) wear his hakama, and b) lead the class. I impressed upon him that we would benefit from his taking the class, but he was still reluctant. So, we left it at that, and the class continued. I didn't make an announcement of his rank because he requested that I didn't...so, I didn't. And a great time was had by all. After, in the changing room, he told me he was waiting to speak to our Sensei and 'introduce' himself, and then take things from there. And after he had done that, he felt able to don his hakama thereafter. A goodly example of a truly humble aikidoka. Oh, and his ukemi was *hit-hot too!

    We have a policy in our dojo that any and all styles of aikido are welcome and respected; as are practitioners of other martial disciplines...for what they bring to the banquet is an altogether different set of tempting dishes. We are the ones who benefit, and we appreciate it too. Also, Sensei treats (awards) black belts as if they were hens teeth. It takes a long time (mostly) before one is allowed to don one of those; in my case, more years than I care to remember. But, that said, I am enjoying my belt, as I did all of the previous ones too...full in the knowledge that I, like a young salmon, having travelled downriver, have now just discovered the ocean. At least, that's how I see it.

  7. #67
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    Default

    Originally posted by sung ho cheung
    ...full in the knowledge that I, like a young salmon, having travelled downriver, have now just discovered the ocean. At least, that's how I see it.
    Sung HO,
    I like this and when we get to the ocean. Wow! That is a heck of alot of water. It sounded like you were an excellent example of an Aikidoka as well, since you recognized his technique was above yours and you willing asked him to teach and respected his wishes.

  8. #68
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    Default

    Originally posted by sung ho cheung
    An interesting thread...here's a little tale...

    Some years ago, I was the class 'sensei' - simply because I was the most senior rank present at that particular class. I was a blue belt. A new guy joined us that night, and he was sporting a white belt. It didn't take me long to figure out this guy was way in advance of me, so I asked him if he would lead the class. He was really reluctant to do so. When I pressed him, he explained to me that he held a nidan in tomiki style, and as we were an akikai style dojo, he did not think it appropriate to a) wear his hakama, and b) lead the class. I impressed upon him that we would benefit from his taking the class, but he was still reluctant. So, we left it at that, and the class continued. I didn't make an announcement of his rank because he requested that I didn't...so, I didn't. And a great time was had by all. After, in the changing room, he told me he was waiting to speak to our Sensei and 'introduce' himself, and then take things from there. And after he had done that, he felt able to don his hakama thereafter. A goodly example of a truly humble aikidoka. Oh, and his ukemi was *hit-hot too!

    We have a policy in our dojo that any and all styles of aikido are welcome and respected; as are practitioners of other martial disciplines...for what they bring to the banquet is an altogether different set of tempting dishes. We are the ones who benefit, and we appreciate it too. Also, Sensei treats (awards) black belts as if they were hens teeth. It takes a long time (mostly) before one is allowed to don one of those; in my case, more years than I care to remember. But, that said, I am enjoying my belt, as I did all of the previous ones too...full in the knowledge that I, like a young salmon, having travelled downriver, have now just discovered the ocean. At least, that's how I see it.
    Hello,

    Can I ask where you train? If we interpret China broadly, there are Aikikai-affiliated organizations in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macao. However, I know of no such organizations in mainland China, though I have heard that M Suganuma Shihan visits China to conduct training courses.

    Please enlighten me, by PM if you feel it appropriate.

    Best regards,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  9. #69
    sung ho cheung Guest

    Default

    Gene - your most gracious words doth reverberate around mine humble ears. Though I feel them to be undeserved, I thank you for them anyway.

    respectfully,

  10. #70
    sung ho cheung Guest

    Default

    Prof. Goldbury Sensei,
    a PM will be sent shortly hereafter.

    respectfully,

  11. #71
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    Default

    I read through most of this thread and was wondering what all you long time students do with all your whitebelts? Considering that one comes with every gi I buy, I imagine that, if everyone is in the same boat, they have a drawer of brand new white belts.
    David Bunnell

  12. #72
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    Default

    Originally posted by Butsudoka
    I read through most of this thread and was wondering what all you long time students do with all your whitebelts? Considering that one comes with every gi I buy, I imagine that, if everyone is in the same boat, they have a drawer of brand new white belts.
    Hello David,

    I buy my keikogi from a shop that will sell everything together or the different bits separately. The tops and bottoms are of a different size in any case.

    Best regards,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  13. #73
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    Originally posted by Butsudoka
    I read through most of this thread and was wondering what all you long time students do with all your whitebelts? Considering that one comes with every gi I buy, I imagine that, if everyone is in the same boat, they have a drawer of brand new white belts.
    I leave some of them at the dojo for anyone to use. I have a small stash of them at home that I use for some stretching exersizes, and I also keep a few of them handy in the bedoom for non-aikido related activities :-)
    Tim Mailloux

  14. #74
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    In the last twelve years, I've gone through three dogi. My original belt vanished in the locker room within the first month. Luckily, one of my dojo mates had one of his new spares in his bag and gave it to me. I still have that one. The next two dogi I bought came without belts.

    Best Regards,
    Bernard "Etch" Echiverri
    Bernard B. Echiverri

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