The 11´th dan

[MarkF]

Hi, Brian,
This will be discussed from time to time, and there will always be differences "read in" to what was said by the Kodokan committee.

I have that issue as well, and although very tired and tattered due to my neglect, I have never understood it to mean that Kano graded himself to anything.

This book, and even more so late edtions, say different things about when and how Kano "graded" himself. I just ordered a book which now has been reissued and one I have never owned, but we will see. These same people in committe at the Kodokan in the fifties have also said, though not included in this manual, that Kano berrated his students for attempting to rank him to any level, and to do so, he would put it out of reach, IE, that if he were given tenth dan, he would raise it higher, etc. These manuals from the Kodokan are just that and do have many contributors, ones who thought Kano a "genius" and should be held out in some form or another apart from ordinary judoka.

Now if we consider that Kano has also stated that judo must be learned as he instructed, and in the order in which to learn waza, it is also said that he made nage waza to be most important if the other waza were not available. Personally, since this book, in all its variations says this, and that Kano said, paraphrased, that to stop judo training is not to be tolerated, among other rules. As this is not possible for most for a lifetime, the additons have added these caveats to make it comprehensible. There is very little about Kano which is quoted and witnessed. His only goal was to teach judo, and he lamented the lack of qualified teachers before he died, so when he says that a return to "Kodokan randori" is of immeditate importance, is this to mean his randori or that praciticed by people who have studied at the Kodokan? In his later years, he spent little time there. Much can be opined to what this meant, and therefore, much of what the Kodokan itself said concerning Kano and what his thoughts were, is to be taken only at face value. It can be interpreted that he promoted himself to junidan or shihan or whatever, but no one has specifically quoted Kano as announcing this to all to here, otherwise, it would not be in such dispute.

This is only my opinion, but when someone says that Mr. Kano did just that, as are the stories which came out of the daito ryu "history" which claim certain waza which can only be "demonstrated" by master and a trained uke, as to do otherwise, would be dangerous for anyone who wanted to experience one of these techniques. Also, T. Takeda also said is father was a "wall passer." Of course there are no such claims about Kano. He also never mentioned the "soft" judoka, but this is making a comeback, if for no other reason than to say that this is what Kano meant by the constant of "mimimum effort and maximum efficiency." He is said to have been very unhappy the direction judo had taken, and repeated what he meant that one must never use brute force to do well in competition, that waza will win out and strength should be centered only in the shoulders and hips, and then only in the instant required to achieve kake, or whatever the technues one was utilizing in randori. But just like in ryu of jujutsu, time has a way of changing things to fit our vision of the world, and the soviet judo players proved, at least in winning, that size does matter, thus the need for weight classes and the removal of the openweight divisions. This is contrary to what judo is about, but the facts are what they are. Personally, I can't wait 'til this adage is fact, and it is, if you are in judo for the long haul, when the two or three techniques one uses in shiai no longer hold up in the real world. There are many now who have no interest or cannot physically compete, but the number of schools which do more than touch on self-defense kata (goshin jutsu) or even nage no kata, or participating in kata tournament are nearly inpossible. I have run into some who have many years of judo training, and when the discussion hits on "well, what about atemiwaza no kata," and the usual description of what they do does not involve striking in any way. This is truly one of the sadder commentaries on judo today, but I know you have a vast storehouse of knowledge, and this, of course does not apply. It is only an example of what can happen when someone takes the term "forbidden" and then does the same with these forms, literally. The Kodokan is not innocent in this.

The other day, I was making my monthly tour of the judo forum at http://www.ijf.org and the question of "jumping juji-gatame was again raised, as someone wanted to know if it were legal. I am only certified in my state to officiate at shiai, but the rules clearly state that if a true waza was not attempted to bring uke to the mat, then "dragging" an opponent from the standing position to katami waza is not a proper move, and can be dangerous, as well. If one can grab an armlock and then uke goes to the floor because he is resisting, then that is different. Here is a good example of "a judgement call," as some will not allow it but others will. Personally, dragging someone to the mat, or jumping into a mat technique such as this which is cinched before uke gets there, he/she will get one warning (if a point tournament-we don't have many here) than an immediate keikoku is called and the opponent, or victim, gets credit for waza-ari. Either way, do it twice and you are out of the tournament (direct hansokumake). I have heard this story beginning in the sixties and there is still an argument, not over the technique, but what is achieved as an attempt before the armlock. Otherwise, it is a very nice move, and one I approve of, but only in context of self-defense. That's just me My point was (sometimes I forget to make a point) that one person had called the Kodokan about it and asked Murata, curator of the museum there, and that he had said it was perfectly within the rules. Mr. Murata has answered a few questions of my own, and is very nice, but the Kodokan long ceased to be rule maker, as the IJF makes them today. I am sure he deserves his nanadan very much, but to answer so flippently about something which is not his territory, is not the response I would expect. Instead, I would give the name of the head shimban or officiating body of the IJF, or the person's national organization to answer that (referee training and seminars are held, at the least, once a year, and too many times in this isstance of the Olympics).

So while I would like to believe everything attributed to Mr. Kano to be true, some are not, and I doubt seriously, a man of Mr. Kano's stature (he was the same height as me ), would announce than he is now shihan, junidan, or anything else, as he had always intended the white/black belt, and possibly brown, to be a watermark of where your level in training is located. As Kano applied the "circle of judo" to mean the same thing in life, then the only thing a "perfect" judoka could be after attaining this perfection (10-dan), is to be a student again, and though it is possible, he wanted no part in his many students' plans to grade him there as he believed perfection could not be achieved, but if so, then eleven and twelve would be the first of this new class of student.

Anyway, sorry for the long and drawn out post, but I like the subject, and I fight for judo to be accepted as it was meant to be. "To better one's self." This can be accomplished in many ways, and he had strived to make this pleasing, but totally unimportant in the scheme of things.

My two c-notes

Sincerely,

Mark

[William F. Kincaid]

Well Mark once again I agree with your views, and it is sad to see Judo heading this way. Hopefully with more of us out there Judo can get back to more of a Martial art (as far as other martial arts are concerned) and not just a martial sport (which being a martial sport does have some good qualities, just not for me).

About the Jumping Juji-Gatame....
One of my peers while I was coming up through the ranks in Judo showed me a book from either the 50's or 60's that showed a Juji-Gatame type throw, but alas that was many brain cells ago. Is this the "Jumping Juji-Gatame" you were referring to?

About Kano Shihan.....
It seems to me by Kano Shihan always adding another rank when he was promoted higher was due to (like you and others I have said)his not wanting to be viewed as the pinnacle of Judo. Also could it have been the simple fact that he wanted rank or grade to be just an indication of where on the ladder you are concerning knowledge and skill. We all know that there is no end to knowledge and skill. So there is no end to rank or grade

Kano had to see this, the man was a teacher for crying out loud. Why didn't the Kodokan? Actually they did see it but they were so "indebted to Kano shihan" as far as they were concerned, that they decided to make him the pinnacle anyway.

But then again these are just my views on the matter

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by William F. Kincaid
...It seems to me by Kano Shihan always adding another rank when he was promoted higher was due to (like you and others I have said)his not wanting to be viewed as the pinnacle of Judo.

Does anybody have any evidence, from any source, that anybody ever promoted Kano to any Judo rank whatsoever? Alive OR dead?

I personally doubt anyone had the cojones to be that presumptuous.

As far as titles...let's not forget that Kano earned a _shihan_ license in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, and later a _menkyo kaiden_ in Kito Ryu. He was entitled to be called "Shihan," and seems merely to have retained the use of that title after the founding of Kodokan.

[MarkF]

Yes, William we do agree a lot:

orignally posted by William:

Well Mark once again I agree with your views, and it is sad to see Judo heading this way. Hopefully with more of us out there Judo can get back to more of a Martial art (as far as other martial arts are concerned) and not just a martial sport (which being a martial sport does have some good qualities, just not for me).

It has been heading this way for a while now, but it has just gotten worse, much worse, in the last few years or so. That was when the rules of contest became so cumbersome, that even at the little invitationals out here, I must review signs and calls (We still do it much like the old ways in most, but the state tournaments, EG, The AAUs, it is ridiculous) before and during the matches. If it had stopped with rules for the color of the dogi, and two judges in the corners for those matches which do not end with ippon, I would have been happy. They have effectively removed katamiwaza from tournaments because of penalties for "passivity." Remember those matches of the really good BBs who would stand in a grip, motionless, waiting for one or the other to flinch? Those were exiting as hell. Now, they would be "urged" to move on, giving the one with the defensive grip a penalty (shido) equal to koka, and then upward toward actually being banned from the competition (direct hansokumake). I love shiai, and that is the reason I stayed involved after I quit, but Geez, I fear this year's Olympics will be do or die for judo if the new rules do not make it more attractive, and no one knows how to watch a match to begin with. The idea of the new rules was to increase interest, and therefore, learn to watch. There are so many rules that they have scheduled officials conferences and practice before and during this year's tournament.

One of my peers while I was coming up through the ranks in Judo showed me a book from either the 50's or 60's that showed a Juji-Gatame type throw, but alas that was many brain cells ago. Is this the "Jumping Juji-Gatame" you were referring to?

Well, the closest throw I can think of in which a jump of some sort would have to be done is kani basami, the scissors throw. An arm bar can be applied in this throw, but there are throws in which armlocks can be applied before, during, and after. Like I said, you can do a jumping juji gatame, but it has been prohibited from shiai as long as I can remember. I did learn it early on, but jumping is literally that; jumping, dragging and cinching all before you hit the mat. It can do severe damage if not done properly. The best way to eliminate injuries is by prohibiting it. In randori, it can be practiced, but not utilized in tournament play, but the question most officals have, is in recognizing good waza, an attempted throw, or a scoring one, in which you apply the armlock. It has always been one of judgement by the shimban. If the "drag down" is close enough to a technique, it will be allowed. Maybe it should be allowed without question, but the line between applying judo waza and wrestling is a fine one. I am talking about overt moves in which uke is dragged downward with the express purpose of cinching this arm lock before hitting the mat. I suppose you could distinguish it as they do in baseball with the spitter. If you are applying saliva to better the grip, that is not illegal. If you apply something, or scuff the ball while doing this, it isn't. In basketball, a fine line was always inferred when going to the basket, and if you are going up, then it is charging. Going down when you collide, it is a foul, and the shot counts. Now, they have made it worse because of the lines under the basket. If you are within the lines, well, it makes it automatically one way or the other, even when it appears to be a charge or a foul. Too much encroachment by the officials.

Now, once you are on the ground, and go for an armlock, and persist, you may be penalized for passivity. If you think you are using good waza in dragging and then jumping into juji gatame, it is up to the shimban as to what you did. It is ridiculous. Oh, yes, to answer your question, it may be. I would have to see it, but even then, in a still picture, you never know :burnup:

It seems to me by Kano Shihan always adding another rank when he was promoted higher was due to (like you and others I have said)his not wanting to be viewed as the pinnacle of Judo. Also could it have been the simple fact that he wanted rank or grade to be just an indication of where on the ladder you are concerning knowledge and skill. We all know that there is no end to knowledge and skill. So there is no end to rank or grade

Kano had to see this, the man was a teacher for crying out loud. Why didn't the Kodokan? Actually they did see it but they were so "indebted to Kano shihan" as far as they were concerned, that they decided to make him the pinnacle anyway.

I think you are right on both counts. Kano has been quoted on many occasions that this is all the grade meant. It was a watermark to show your general level of training, and to be used as this in the dojo only. This is one reason for not allowing a student to wear dogi and obi while coming or leaving. It is a "sin" to advertise your training.

I have never read where he refused any rank which was implied or enforced, but his was only to say that at 10-dan, you have mastered the entire syllabus of judo. He also said this applied in your life style, as well as the dojo, so he believed no one could do this. When it was brought to his attention that this was indeed possible in his case, he did raise it, and after 10-dan, the only thing left was to be a a student. It may have been in place sometime before his death, but things like grading were not important as such, and today, there are really only, at best, educated guesses as to what prevailed then. Kano did, however, licence his students as he saw fit. There were no tests for advancement. You were or you weren't. A lot played into this, and those who believe testing to be a necessary tool are not basing it on Kano's "circle of life." Things do change, however, and any testing done would have to have purpose, something which Mr. Kano did not envision. This again, goes with the evolvement of JMA. I don't do it, and neither have my teachers, but after ikkyu, I rarely grade anyone. Only one shodan since I opened a dojo for myself. This is the third I've tried to make work, so I may just be stubborn as an ass.

I think the Kodokan in those days was trying to be fair. I doubt any real collusion or other incitements, but since then, the Kodokan has ceased to be the best place to study judo. But it is an historical root to the early Kodokan so in that, and training and living as they do may be as close as anyone will get. Money, no matter how it is paid, is at the route now to Kodokan teaching licenses. No one can do so without fees, but in building and maintaing the current "honbu," it is expensive, but there should be alternate forms of payment, as well.

Rather than calling judo "sport martial art," I would say complete martial art, instead, or as the current head of US Judo Inc. calls it: a combative sport. Frankly, there is some form of combat and sport in all martial arts, as kyudo/kyujutsu had comeptition. Even in other koryu, it has been that way since forever, probably. The ryuha of jujutsu had challenges all the time, and after the banning of the sword, it only increased. Now, some of these involved life and limb, but it still was a contest, and even if you only include the kyu/dan system of licensing, there is much too much competition for that. Martial art or sport, I teach Kodokan judo, as I am sure do you. Kano also held menkyo from two schools of jujutsu, and possibly a third. Even in this system, there is competition. How many are beginning to claim kaiden or some equal level of "mastery?"

Mark