JUDO and the CULTURE OF INJURY?

[Scanderson]

Sometimes I think Judo enforces a "culture of injury". My last instructor had rebuilt AC and rotators in both shoulders among other problems - another instructor has had a double hip replacement. Most of the high ranking judoka I know have an injury of some sort. All learned how to "fall" correctly - but apparently you can only fall correctly so many times before injury evolves.

My observation is this - it would seem to me that injury in judo is a "rite of passage" to some instructors and players. Some seem to wear their injuries like medals, bragging about them and the poor quality of mats they got slammed on for many years. It seems to me that more could be done to prevent injury. Most injuries I have seen in my short time in judo (and even wrestling) appear to be due to the mat surface itself. OK, poorly controlled throws contribute, but that is only the catalyst - it is the surface of the mat that one injuries his/herself on.

The last two clubs I have been in both had excellent mats - nice high quality Swain mats - however, underneath those two inches of foam is either concrete or ungiving hardwood flooring. IMO, this is not sufficient.

Mats are costly, no doubt - almost prohibitive. But the cost of the wear and tear on the judoka is more costly. Rather than addressing this, it would appear that a culture of injury has arisen to justify poor mat quality. How is it that we see pictures of Kano and Mifune practicing Judo late in their lives and yet many instructors and players in the US can no longer play in their forties?

How many of you belong to clubs that have spring loaded mats? I wonder if BJJ players enjoy less injury that Judo players due to the focus on newaza? Sorry, but ever since I separated my shoulder, I have been thinking about this. My arm and shoulder have since worked things out and are back together again, but I would like to avoid other bodily divorce in the future....:-)

Stephen C. Anderson

P.S. I found the following article to be quite a convincing argument:

http://www.judoamerica.com/helpforclubs/springmat/

[vadrip]

Most martial artists view injury as a "rite of passage" so judo is no different than the rest in that department. Alot of injuries in judo I see personally is from people trying to repel/resist a throw and they fall in a awkward way because of it. Not to mention shoulder injuries from armlocks and kuzushi. I never see because of mats because anyone I've known knows that you need to have a good mat for the practice of judo or other grappling arts to reduce injury from throws and groundwork.

[Scanderson]

That begs the question:

"What is a 'good' mat?"

Also, I concur with your observation that awkward falling is one of the causes - still it is the landing that injures. I wonder if there are any stats on the various martial styles with respect to respective injury rates. Would make an interesting study.

Stephen C. Anderson

[vadrip]

As long as it's at least between 1.5 to 2-2.5 inches of thickness in foam , not to soft to impede your footing and cause injury and not placed directly over a concrete floor or anything it's pretty much alright. It can be vinyl, tatami, carpet or whatever else as along as it's a durable type of material and not to abrasive and doesn't impede your footing and your newaza as well.

[Jody Holeton]

Dear all,

HMMMMM!

In Michigan I have seen ALOT of judoka with bad hips, bad shoulders, and those wierd steel knee braces.

At the time I thought it was just from TOO rough tournament fighting OR from repetitious exercise.

I come to Japan and I have seen an occasional knee brace BUT I have seen high school kids (who play judo everyday) with shoulder and leg problems.


I think that mats on CONCRETE, too much repetitive SLAMMING (without crash pads) and too many HEAVIES just wear a body out over time.
I used to do TKD and MAN did my friggin knees hurt for a while!! Jumping on concrete will do that to you....

Oh and yes, some people do get off on the pain bit, it gives people something to talk about AND its supposed to show how tough people are. I personally would rather have good knees.....

['renso]

In my dojo we stress PERFORMING UKEMI in randori, when a throw is clean and nice. No resisting or forcing. The few competitors we have, don't seem to suffer for this; it's just another form of randori, less shiai oriented, but for sure challenging (a throw is a throw ONLY with good kuzushi). Also, there are tires below the mats. It's not expensive and it works...the attitude is, you learn by falling, and if you can fall 1000 times instead of 100, this is good. when visiting other dojos, I find often that my ukemi (far from perfect!!!) is actually better than the locals, and that I can absorb a quite strong throw even on a 10cm mat. Breakfalling more often = better breakfalling!

also, about the injuries, they are common among competitors, because of stressful training routines and tough fighting in shiai... I guess this is unavoidable if you place two judoists one against another in a final for whatever, and both know they must NOT fall! All the injuries I know about (mostly knees) come from awkward falling, resisting and/or repeated stress in the course of a competition.

[Joseph Svinth]

"No pain, no gain

"The current rage in Germany is a video game that gives players guaranteed pain. What fun, you say? Well, Germans seem to love it. The video game shocks, whips and beats you if you happen to lift your finger off the button while playing. Called Pain Station, after the famed Play Station, the game is gaining popularity and could make its way across the pond. Ouch!"

http://clarkhoward.com/shownotes/200...3.html#walmart

Think I'm pulling your leg? Well, how's this? Award EMMA "Connecting The Interactive Community", nominating (2001) Tilman Reiff and Volker Morawe "Pain station" (interactive computer game) at http://www.khm.de/news/preise01_d.htm , which led to http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50875,00.html :

"Have you ever had a hankering to play a computer game that allows you to inflict real pain on your opponent?

"Ever wondered how it would feel to shock, burn and lash your opponent into submission?

"Well, wonder no more. Two German designers have addressed this yawning gap in the gaming industry with a fiendish invention called, appropriately enough, the Painstation... The game ends only when one of the players decides that the pain is too much to bear and lifts a hand off the PEU. All of which sounds straightforward, but in truth games often continue long past the point where common sense has given way to stubborn machismo.

"I think this really explains the appeal of something like the Painstation," said its co-inventor Tilman Reiff. "When you're playing in public against a friend with people cheering you on, it's very hard to throw in the towel without putting up a good fight. I've seen people leave the table with blood on their hands and their skin completely raw because they didn't want to back down in front of an audience.

"... Their next project, based on an idea by Morawe, is developing a high-tech punching bag with multiplayer applications."

[MarkF]

Interactive. Gives new meaning to randori.

Mark

[Scanderson]

Just to be clear, I distinguish "injury" from "pain" - the first often causing the latter. With some pain, there is NO GAIN - only LOSS. I think skilled judo players for the most part have learned to live with or ignore pain. Unfortunately, ignoring pain can lead to injury, particularly in repetative situations like judo throwing practice. Pain is the body's warning system - it says "DON"T DO THAT!"; therefore, we take a risk when we learn to ignore this warning. Just because one is tough and can "take the pain", does not mean one won't suffer an injury.

Further I am not talking judo "boo boos", scrapes, busted noses, jammed fingers and toes and bloody noses. I am talking about long-term chronic injuries - the ones that affect your quality of life, your posture, the way you walk - your mobility. These are the ones to avoid. Think of it this way - how much better would your judo be after all these years if you were not plagued by that bad hip, back or shoulder?

Stephen C. Anderson

[dakotajudo]

Boy, if this isn't a timely topic!

Last night, after about 40 minutes of randori, I had one student left on the mat and he said "One more go". I eventually threw him with harai-goshi and somehow in the process he his little toe.

This is the second time a student in my club has broken a little toe; I myself have broken my little toe, although this was years ago at a different club. So I told him, "Welcome to the club".

What is common is that these injuries have occurred while training on a carpeted gymnastics floor. Great for taking ukemi, a little hard on the feet. I have a lot of new students come back with their feet all bandaged from getting rug-burns during ne-waza.

More to the point, my current nagging injury is my big toe; it started when the aforementioned student tried to break okuri-eri-jime by prying my leg away using my toe (didn't work), and was exasperated when a student jammed it with his shin during ne-waza.

Not quite as debilitating as the hip and shoulder injuries you mention (although I haven't been able to run for a few weeks), but it does illustrate a point; most injuries come from the straining of bodies against each other, not from a (properly trained) body hitting the floor.

I have a shoulder that has been multiply dislocated; never once has it popped out as a result of ukemi. From forced techniques, yes, both as tori and uke, but not from ukemi.

[MarkF]

You're absolutly right that pain is a warning sign, it is there to send a message, but I've broken my ankles three times (one twice) and in these injuries there was no pain, at least not right away. The swelling, however, later on let me know I needed to do something. These were softball sized swellings, but other than the orthopod setting the bone[s] using pressure on setting casts, there was no outward discomfort...until the casts came off and I returned to the mats weeks or months too early. They were all as a result of taking ukemi, or studpidity.

The first one was at the age of thirteen and was the immediate result of just having been thrown. I was working on my own with an uke getting ready for an important tournament, but right after I took the fall, my teacher, who was facing away from me, showing the class something, swung around and asked in a harsh tone, "Are you all right!?" I sort of chuckled (beginnings of machismo) and said, "Sure!"

I then tried to get up. That didn't work. It still didn't hurt, but I couldn't put the weight on it. I got a ride home, and when I got there I noticed it had swollen terribly.

Sometimes pain doesn't warn us in time. Sometimes it is completely absent especially in gross injury. It is a shock to the system so onset can go from never to a week, to a day or less, but one thing I have figured out is that the bad ones take time to let me know. Sometimes, it is the circumstance of the injury which dictates onset of symptoms. Car accidents, for example, cause brutal injury, but the need to be freed of the confines of the situation delay onset, or sometimes it is shiai completing ones' matches.
*****

OK, speaking of ukemi and the importance of getting it down so well that it time and again saves one's life. I don't think it would have been that bad, but a few hours ago, I was on my way into the kitchen, I heard my name called, I turned, not stopping, and I stepped on the heel of the open-back sandals I was wearing. I lost my balance, and felt I was falling backwards. I knew a small table with the microwave on it was right behind where I was falling, and grabbed my head to pull forward to tuck and protect my melon. I felt the table graze my arm, and I went down. The "graze" on my arm was actually a small cut from the edged of the table, and I upset a lot of stuff near by, but it was the newest injury I had in a while, but nothing serious.

Can you say "Duck and Cover?"

Now my arm is slightly swollen and the cut wasn't much worse than a scrape but yeah, I understand about the timing of these warnings we end up posting for our own good sometimes.

I suppose I should call in sick later on.

BTW: If the pain in your big toe has been going on for some while, but it has otherwise healed, a uric acid serum level test wouldn't be out of the question. Gouty arthritis usually begins there, but it can happen anywhere and is usually area specific like that.

Injury happens in all activities and some are blessed, and some are not. "War stories" aren't so bad but I wouldn't take the more serious ones lightly. My shoulders and knees are intact, but I can't say that about my back or about my ankles (weak).

BTW: Joe, how's the back these days?

Mark

[efb8th]

Hi, All.

In my dojo, we used the wooden or concrete surfaces to test the quality of ukemi. People said I was crazy or hard-core, but if you know you are going to have to pass the green belt ukemi exam on concrete, you pay MUCH closer attention to dftails. BTW we had ZERO ukemi-related injuries in twenty years of training.

Regards,

During the last Olympics I watched as much of the judo competition as I could (judo on TV once in four years just isn't enough )

One of the things that really stood out was the number of competitors who would try and twist in mid air to avoid Ippon (i.e. trying to land on their front or side instead of their back). In a lot of cases this resulted in very awkward looking landings.

I appreciate that if a medal is at stake you might be willing to take more risks - but I do wonder whether this is taught as a strategy in some (sport-oriented) dojos...

All kind of ironic if you think about it.

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Pain station just sounds like a 21st century version of the old game we used to play at school where we would stand fist to fist and try to hit each other's knuckles

[MarkF]

Teachers do teach ways of getting out without a [serious] call, but no one teaches a competitor to stick out an arm, keeping your head up and out and take it full-face, or any other multitude of rarely successful technique.

I teach those who compete how to roll out of a throw instead of taking it flat on the back (more than fifty percent of your back must hit the floor for Ippon, but it still is a judgment call). It used to be on the back OR side with a lot of force, or if uke slapped the mat for protection, that was also used to decide between waza-ari or ippon. Of course, you will almost never see uke hitting the mat with his arm these days, nor is it necessary.

I've seen yuko or waza-ari called with uke on his elbows, then grabbing and pulling tori off to the side.

Somethings do change. It just isn't the same, but if the rule is agreeable then one can't complain, but it still isn't the same. Older judoka say that it hasn't been the same since the years before WWII and relocation.

Mark

[PeteBoyes]

I have adopted an exercise mentioned in http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/ukemi/ (thanks, previous E-Budo poster for the pointer ).

The kids pair-up and and Tori holds Uke's lapels whilst Uke leans backwards with a straight body. Tori then releases Uke's lapels so that Uke must turn to his stomach.

We also get the kids to practice cartwheels and Arab-springs.

Once they get more advanced we use 'crash'-mats when practising throws - both for Tori to fully commit, and Uke to land more safely.