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View Poll Results: Would you continue to allow your children to train at this school?

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Thread: Right or Wrong #2

  1. #31
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    Tai Chi? My child would be studying Budo!!

    If this were a Tai chi class I would leave my child in. But if John is going to suddenly turn things around and make it full contact Karate then out.

    Why the sudden run on ethical questions??
    Why not.

  2. #32
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    My first post.... how exciting.....

    I would keep my child in. As an instructor myself I know that I am bound by certain restrictions when it comes to working with my students. When dealing with my students when I am down with a cold or a flu I limit my contact with them, choosing senior students to demonstrate. An instructor who is bold enough to come forward with such a personal disclosure will be aware of the need for strict observance of safety precautions when working with a student.

    I tend to think that many people are unaware of the exact means of transmission of HIV. Swapping sweat isn't going lead to infection. Were it that simple I'm sure that more than a few of us would be vunerable after a clammy handshake or a summer time hug or slap on the back. Direct exchange of fluids is required (sweat, saliva and tears are excluded because an extremely large amount is required for transmission via these fluids).

    Excellent ethical question

    Adette Rice
    Kitchener, Ontario

  3. #33
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    Exclamation HIV and Budo - is there a place for both to work together?

    I am a student (used loosely) and I have tested HIV +.

    I am also disabled, not by HIV but by neurologically based genetic problems, soft tissue damage, diabetes and a long term (over 30 years) chronic infection of Epstien-Barr Virus I probably got in High School. It is classed a Multi-factoral disability that renders me totally fatigued and ill with very little effort. My brain's white matter is also receeding which could be the diabetes, stress/hyper-tension, or genetics.

    I would like to take Aikido here in Colorado where I live in Boulder County, but I have had resistance due to my infection. Most understand that the chance of infection is minimal to none, especially if the teachers and students are aware and handle accidents intelligently. Surgical gloves should always be in any first aid kit; bleach or hydrogen peroxide in water for clean up;
    I studied Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu and Kenjutsu for years and only once ever bled.
    A senior rolled into my face as I rolled at a special session. My nose bled like a water spout... but I got none on the Tatami!!!! Still only the sensei delt with me and that was long before my health problems or infection.

    Is this resistance normal? And may there be a way to include HIV patients in studying Aikido for the good of their spirits and health, as well as the good of the community by showing these are just people with an infection, not something to be ostricized or avoided. Even sufferers of Hansen's disease (leprosy) are found to be isolated more by fear and revoltion than actual danger of infection. Most HIV + people are undetectible or inactive, and are no danger even if they did bleed as long as intelligence and forethought is used in handling the accident.

    Does anyone know of a dojo or program that does allow HIV + people learn and practice?

    I would never hide the fact that I am infected. How I became infected is no one's business but mine. But everyone involved deserves the right to know that there is a chance of infection however slight. Now for the bomb...
    there are probably people next to you that are infected and have not shown or tested positively for the anti-bodies. So how would anyone really know?

    Thank you.

    Randall A. McGrew
    Randall McGrew

  4. #34
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    Increase in risk? An economist would tell you that there would need to be a risk premium to make risk adverse person enter a market.

    A parent has the responsibility of protecting their child, most even take this very seriously, making them very risk adverse.

    So, ceteris paribus (all things being equal), a rational parent would not allow their child to continue taking lessons.

    As an instructor, I ask if the student has any health problems. If the answer is yes, I need a doctors release. For something serious like that, I'd need to be able to discuss the situation with the doctor in depth and be fully satisfied before I agree to accept the student.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  5. #35
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    Default Training

    Hi Randall,

    I'm sorry to hear that you've tested positive...but people either cancelling or pulling out their kids from such a class is a common experience and one that you will continue to see.

    Being up front with everyone is great, it is the right thing & the responsible thing to do.

    If you were in a Non-Contact Class like Tai Chi, I wouldn't think anything of your participation. But in a contact class, if I were the Instructor I wouldn't take you as a student, or if I were in the class I would end my training & move on elsewhere.

    While you mention that there are others that might have this disease, and are not telling their classmates or are ignorant of the fact...the point you're missing is that in your case & others like yours, there is no question...the answer is yes you have it.

    While the risks may be small, with those who are infected the risks are higher for the simple fact that people who are consciously choosing to train with you on a regular basis are increasing their odds and risk of exposure.

    I'm not saying this to be nasty or insensitive, simply that what you're talking about what is sadly a Fatal Disease...and purposefully exposing or risking exposing others to it (( when you're dealing with a curriculum that involves: Striking, Grappling, Weapons, etc )) is wrong. While a non-contact martial art (( while it may not be what you're looking for )) keeps others exposure & risk to a minimum.

    As you stated yourself, through accidental chance, your nose spurted blood like a facet, and thankfully you didn't get any on the mat...what if during the incident you'd gotten it in their face or if the person had a small cut & your blood got in the wound...all small chances...but accidents as you illustrated yourself happen...and should someone actually catch it from you...saying sorry for giving someone the flu is one thing...saying you're sorry for giving someone something that is Fatal...unless they consciously have chosen to ignore the risks simply doesn't cut it.

    An Instructor opens themselves to massive liability should any of his students catch the disease. While I've worked with hand-to-hand, plastic, wooden weapons & bladed ones...I've been fortunate in that I've never been cut by these...the times I have been cut have been by students who haven't bothered to trim their finger nails or toe nails.

    I pulled my daughter from a Jujutsu Class when I learned that the lady that my daughter was regularly being paired up with had Hepatitis C & that the instructor knew this. This disease has a quicker kill rate than AIDS & I didn't appreciate the instructor pairing up my 14yr old daughter with someone who had a Fatal Disease. If she were learning Tai Chi...it wouldn't have been an issue...but grappling, striking & weapons training all have inherent risks, and when you add someone who definitely has something like this or Aids...it is a risk that an Instructor shouldn't allow in his school. Both in terms of Morality & Liability.

    Eric

  6. #36
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    Default HIV and Budo - is there a place for both to work together?

    Eric,

    Thank you for the well thought out and insightful post. And no, you are not being insensitive or nasty. I completely understand and agree with your concerns. This is also the response I generally get. It is bad enough that there are many who do not know they are infected, and are out there in the crowd.

    I have started another thread with a different angle, but at this point, I might as well just not bother.

    Thanks again for you honesty and candor. I do appreciate it.

    Sincerely,

    Randall
    Randall McGrew

  7. #37
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    I would let my child stay and study Tai chi chuan. I think studying the forms
    is fine. When ever you engage in anything theres always risk like driving a car.
    I do not see why a teacher can not teach martial arts so long as he does not get into applications that can result in exposing blood. Of course us concern parents would ask questions on his lesson plans perhaps a meeting with him a doctor and so on to come to safe way for him to still teach. I would also recommend education with the students both parents doinig it and a semiar dealing with it. My point is instead of annexing a good teacher(I suppose he is a good teacher) find way to deal with the problem instead of running from it.
    -David Andreasen

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Wylie
    Increase in risk? An economist would tell you that there would need to be a risk premium to make risk adverse person enter a market.

    A parent has the responsibility of protecting their child, most even take this very seriously, making them very risk adverse.

    So, ceteris paribus (all things being equal), a rational parent would not allow their child to continue taking lessons.
    Does this line of reasoning extend to all activities that carry a potential risk? While I understand that this scenario is constructed in a very deliberate way, I find this "risk aversion" mentality somewhat confusing. You mention a parent's responsibility to protect their child. Does this mean locking them up in a plastic bubble to protect against "all possible risks"? Which risks do you say "ok" to and which do you you "run from"?
    Dan Botari

  9. #39
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    Default Good Luck

    Hi Randall,

    Best of luck to you, all I can say is that in this day & age it is amazing what science can do, and the medical advancements that have been made.

    I wish you the best of luck, and hope that 2007 ushers in new possibilities and cures for what ails you.

    Eric

  10. #40
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    Default HIV and Budo - is there a place for both to work together?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yojimbo558
    Hi Randall,

    Best of luck to you, all I can say is that in this day & age it is amazing what science can do, and the medical advancements that have been made.

    I wish you the best of luck, and hope that 2007 ushers in new possibilities and cures for what ails you.

    Eric
    Thank you, Eric. That is greatly appreciated. I have been positive since 1998 and totally undetectable until this year (undetectable means my viral load was <50.) without drugs. This is becoming the norm in the US apparently. But the thing to keep in mind is that it is inevitable that HIV will rise up. So at some point in 2007, possibly 2008, I will have to start the drugs. I will not do so until absolutely necessary.

    Oddly enough, I have studied Taijiquan for almost as long as other forms of MA. I will not be out of the MA entirely, but given the general convictions in this and the other thread I began, I will bury the past and move on.
    I cannot consider it risk aversion when you face a life dealing with the physical and social stigma of HIV. I am primarily a loner so its no real problem but I know many who are very social and it would be devistating to have your friends suddenly stop coming to dinner parties because they are afraid to use glasses or utensils that may have touched you. Or being with family at Christmas and realizing that they have a separate place setting 'just for you!' that must never be confused with the 'others'.

    No. It is better that the HIV + person either opt not to attend and find another pursuit or, as I am starting to investigate, starting a Dojo that will be for the HIV patients. If only I were a ranked Yudansha with the right to teach and start my own Dojo, I would. But I was too busy with business and work to commit to Budo what it demanded. That's a lesson to you kids out there! Choose wisely! Money is great but it is not everything... in fact it is virtually nothing in the bigger picture of life. A lesson most Americans could afford to learn.

    My rant for the day!!

    And thank you to everyone who is joining this discussion. It is good to see you putting in your two cents. I have great respect for you all.

    Randall
    Randall McGrew

  11. #41
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    Default Couple of points

    Firstly obviously risk aversion as a reason to stop training works ceteris parabus however this assumption does require substitues. These substitutes do require their own risk calculation and it is therefore reasonable to assume that there must be a point reached in which the risk in this class may still be below that calculated in other substitutes.

    The second point is probably more important. Studies generally show that indiviudals place too high a calculation on the associated risk with "unusual" events compared to "normal". The most readable explanation of this is in the book Freakonomics by Levitt & Dubner. Here the authors phrase a similar scenario between letting your child play at a house with a gun or a house with a swimming pool. They then go on to prove that the house with the swimming pool is considerably more risky than that with the gun. It is entertaining - honest.

    Given the fact that we do not know if everyone is HIV+, the dojo with an honest teacher who has put the necessary procedures in place and treats everyone the same has probably managed the risk best and is in fact quite possibly the safest dojo to train at. As opposed to the one down the road where no one speaks of HIV and there are no procedures in place.

    Regards
    Duncan Bowdler
    Duncan Bowdler

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan B
    Freakonomics by Levitt & Dubner.
    I read it.

    According to the CDC HIV can/has been transmitted by bite.
    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/fac...ansmission.htm

    Salvia and tears are some of the lesser known carriers of HIV. Mucous membranes can absorb HIV, lesser known mucous membranes are the eyelids, lips, ears.

    It doesnt take a vivid imagination to figure a way to simulate a bite (or invision some other exchange) in a martial arts setting.

    Accidently headbutting someone in the mouth could cause the teeth to puncture the skin. Punching someone in the mouth would do the same thing. I can split/ scratch my knuckle while busting a lip open. What if someone slobbers in my eye while I am choking them?

    I dont think many people want the honor of being the first to contract HIV in some unique manner.

    I think there are those who overestimate the risks of contracting HIV but I also think there are those who underestimate the risks, especially in a martial arts setting.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  13. #43
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    It occurs to me that "documented cases" implies "undocumented cases". Or cases where people get HIV and have no idea how. People can and do carry it for a long time before they ever even know, making the infection method so far removed from the diagnosis that they have little chance figuring out exactly when and how they got it.

    I dont think anyone can offer any assurance at all that it is NOT being transmitted by unusual means. The fact that they haven't detected a specific case doesn't mean that it cant or doesnt happen.

    This line of thinking is kind of paranoid but it is also stupid not to at least acknowledge the idea.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  14. #44
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    Default Documented imlies undocumented

    Quite reasonable: statisticians refer to this as type 1 and type 2 errors, e.g. how many guilty criminals go free to minimise imprisoning an innocent person.

    This is after all about risk management. If people are so worried about how "easy" it is to catch transmitable diseases through martial arts practice then they simply can't practise martial arts if they wish to be risk free.

    My believe as stated above is that someone who has put controls in place will be safer than somewhere with none. Of course if there are two identical dojos then those with a known HIV+ student would be of higher risk.

    At the end of the day it's for the individual to decide. Personally I'm fairly certain that if the alternative dojo is 10 miles away I've probably increased my risk of death greater through the extra miles driving than any risk of contracting HIV. Of course I've not checked the stats to confirm this.

    Duncan Bowdler
    Duncan Bowdler

  15. #45
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    Default Returning to the ACTUAL question

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Wylie
    Accidently headbutting someone in the mouth could cause the teeth to puncture the skin. Punching someone in the mouth would do the same thing. I can split/ scratch my knuckle while busting a lip open. What if someone slobbers in my eye while I am choking them?
    Many posts have made a similar point however the actual scenario was "The instructor in a kids Tai Chi class". Hence if any of this sort of thing was being done to my (theoretical) child by an instructor I would have an issue!! More seriously the situation itself reduces any risk to a reasonable (virtually impossible) level in my view. I've assisted with considerably more risky self-defence classes to children and there has never ever been a situation in which this has been even close to an issue from MY input and I would not class my self as particularly skilled in comparison to my fellow e-budoers.

    Obviously if the scenario is broader to include all possible martial arts practice by adults then the risk IS different and greater. However it may again be possible for an instructor to instruct without raising the risk by avoiding the direct demonstration of certain techniques. This may or may not be possible depending upon the martial art in question. I'll bet boxing trainers like Emanuel Steward work with pros and don't get cut very often themself (any more). It's just not necessary for their training method. Of course if you're waving around large pointy swords you've got another issue altogether but not necessarily one you can go around.

    (Edited for clarity)
    Regards
    Duncan Bowdler

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