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View Poll Results: Would you continue to allow your children to train at this school?

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  • yes

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Thread: Right or Wrong #2

  1. #16
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    It was just given as an example...

    I think everyone here understands that heterosexuals and homosexuals can get HIV...

    I think I'm gonna turn the question around... so I'll post a new topic..
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  2. #17
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    Everyone makes very good arguments. Everything changes when it's YOUR kid on the line.
    Greg Caplinger
    Gekka Dojo
    GWBNF/KJJR

    "Shin-gi-tai-ichi"

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by Blues
    For the record:

    - Using intravenous drugs does not increase the likelyhood of being infected with HIV; exchanging needles does
    I think this is superfluous to the arguement. if the teacher was a drug user, I would not have my child in their classes, regardless of their needle exchanging or lack thereof. Part of teaching kids is being a role model.

    Again, I will state that many HIV-positive people lead normal lives (externally) and many play sports, most notably Magic Johnson. As long as precautions are taken when blood is spilled and all open cuts/sores (on everyone involved) are covered, I see no problem.
    - Tom Marker

  4. #19
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    I have to admit you're right Onmitsu.. Ones opinion will probably change when it applies to your own child.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  5. #20
    kenshorin Guest

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    Originally posted by Blues
    Answer: There are no documented cases of HIV being transmitted during participation in sports.
    Would you want your child to be the first?

    Also, this is a pretty bogus stat since a lot of people get diagnosed with HIV a while after contracting it, and usually settle on a few things it could have been. A lot of people don't really know EXACTLY when they contract HIV.

  6. #21
    kenshorin Guest

    Default addendum to my last post.

    I know a lot of people have done things even though they are afflicted with HIV like Magic Johnson. I respect that, and if given the chance to play basketball with the man, I would. He's a legend , although as a Boston native my whole life he has been the direct cause of some amount of distress. But if he falls and cuts himself, I would know enough to stay away. Can you make that same choice for a child? I don't really think you can...

  7. #22
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    For myself, I don't care if the guy dresses like Liberace, swishes when he walks, and talks with a lithp: if he's honest enough to admit all this without prompting, thus giving you the choice to make a no-hard-feelings decision, then he needs to be supported, not ostracized. And yes, I do have a kid, and between us, I worry a lot more about her eventually having sexually abusive bosses, domestic partners, and "friends" than I do about her acquiring HIV from her athletic activities.

    Still, if you're really worried about your kid acquiring HIV from casual contact, then probably you should drop the class if the teacher is health care professional, too, as health care professionals are another of the high risk groups for both HIV and hepatitis.

    As for the drug addicts, note that there are about 9 million people in the US who regularly abuse prescription medicines. Many of these people are aged 12-25, and a disproportionate number are female. See http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchRepo...ml#Adolescents . This implies that a concerned parent should also endeavor to keep his or her children away from all females aged under 25 years, and under all circumstances avoid sex with them.

    Good luck in your mission, you'll need it.

  8. #23
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    Default It's the disease!

    Hi there!

    I would pull my daughter out...What amazes me was some of the responses jumping into the homophobe direction.

    For a moment ignore the instructors life style. The fact is they have a disease that is incurable & fatal. This to me is what matters. I've practised martial arts since I was 7 ( I'm now 36 ) & although I've never been cut when practising sword or knife take aways...I can't tell you the number of times over the years that I have been cut by my training partners finger & toe nails....

    If all of you think back to being on the mat, due to adrenaline when working out, when uke is cut they don't feel it, and it's usually not until somebody notices blood on the mat or peoples uniforms that eveyone knows that somebody's bleeding...and training stops so we can find out who. In a couple of cases I remember a friend mine almost getting someone else's blood in his eye when he went to wipe the sweat off of his face & discovered he had their blood on his sleeve.

    To me the notion of purposely placing my daughter in a class where a participant has a fatal disease is not good parenting. I pulled my daughter out of a Jujutsu School when I found out that one of the people she'd been working with had Hepatis C ( this person was straight ) again to me as a Father the fact is simple...this person like the one with HIV has an incurable disease which in the end will kill them. The odds of them transmitting their affliction may be small...but the odds of my daughter being exposed to these things, is greater if I ignore the threat, and instead choose to be politically correct & keep her in that type of environment.

    Do these people have a right to train & protect themselves? Sure they do, absolutely...but, do I have a right to place my daughter in an environment where the instructor or senior student doesn't have fatal diseases? Your damn right I do!

    When I explained to the instructor why I pulled her out...he tried to question me about how this was fair & whether or not the individual had the right to train or not. I replied by telling him, "Sensei, with all do respect, I didn't tell you, this person can't train in your dojo or who you have the right to teach. If you wish to include them great. I honestly hope they can find a cure for this...but for right now this isn't one. I talked to 4 different doctors and after describing the training to them, I asked them as to whether they would put their children in these classes.

    The response was unanimous, none of them would purposely send their children to a school where they would be training with a student who they knew had a fatal disease...when it's so easy to send them elsewhere.

    Eric L. Bookin

  9. #24

    Default

    It is sad to me that many of you who are instructors have not taken the trouble to be more informed on this issue than you are.

    Do any of you take blood tests of everyone who comes into your dojo? How do you know whether any of your students have or do not have HIV/AIDS, Hep C or any one of a number of serious blood diseases? Do you really know about the lifestyles of your students?

    Many of you mention things like being nicked by other persons toe nails etc - this will NOT give you any of theses diseases. You must directly swap body fluids. That person would have to be bleeding at that same spot at that same time as you, and your fluids would have to substantially mingle. That is, their skin contact on your injury will not give you the disease. The virus is killed by 20 secs exposure.

    The safest course of action in all dojos is to implement a blood/body fluids rule - no assumptions.no exceptions

    This means:
    1. the person who is injured takes care of their own wound as much as possible.
    2. Everyone who handles the blood wears gloves. (This of course means the instructor has to have a supply in the first aid kit - readily available at any supermarket). If there is blood to be cleaned, use some bleach.
    3. The first aid kit also should contain a protective breathing apparatus in case you have to do mouth-to-mouth.

    Everyone should be informed of this from day one. And it should be drilled regularly.No exceptions, no assumptions.

    Those instructors who have not already done so,do yourselves and your students a favour and go to your local health authority and get the appropriate information.

    Also - references to homosexuals and paedophilia are just plain ill informed. The facts - legal, social, psychological - are clear that the vast majority of children who are sexually assaulted
    are assaulted by heterosexual men. I worked in child sexual assault for many years and I can tell you the number of married Rotary men, pastors, bank managers, school teachers, local politicians, magistrates and straight martial arts instructors far outweighed the number of homosexual men as perpetrators.(is none of the latter in 3 years!) The focus on gay men as culprits on this issue, allows people to avoid looking at where the real dangers and dealing with them accordingly. All parents should be hypervigilant when their child is in the presence of any adult - gay,straight, man or woman.
    Frances Haynes

    CourageousHeart Bujinkan
    www.courageousheart.com.au

  10. #25
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    the question has nothing to do with knowing or not knowing if your students have HIV or not. Knowing how to handle things when it comes to HIV has nothing to do with it either.

    In this case the TEACHER himself has said that he has HIV. The question is would you keep your kids in the class? And I think that if we are honest about it, that most of us would not keep our children in class.

    I know I said before that I would keep them in class (please note that I do not have children yet). But maybe that was an answer that was given a bit too quick. I've been thinking about it and I have to say that if I had children I would find them another teacher. I know it is probably not the right thing to do. But as Onmitsu said:

    Everyone makes very good arguments. Everything changes when it's YOUR kid on the line.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  11. #26
    red_fists Guest

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    Hi.

    I guess it would depend on the level of Tai Chi taught there.

    If it is feel-good Forms Tai Chi I would keep my Kid there, but if it was a school like mine where live Blades, Weapons & contact sparring are taught I would be thinking twice about it.

    But as was stated in an earlier Post I also can't see many Kids doing Tai Chi at a young age.

    Peace.

  12. #27
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    What an interesting ethical question.

    Obviously someone responsible enough to inform others about his having HIV is already showing his concern for the safety of others first. I would ask him how his situation will impact how he teaches to be sure. I would see no reason to pull my kid out if the class suggested no risk. This is a kids class, which probably means mostly calesthentics and games rather than full contact fighting, and minimal instructor contact to begin with.

    Anyone consider telling the kid (if old enough, say 9-12+) the facts & using the situation to teach 'em about HIV/AIDS, and letting her/him come to a conclusion with your support?

    The infected folks we need to watch out for are the very ones we <b> don't </b> know about...the people who won't tell you a thing...or the ones who don't know themselves.

    Take Care, Y'all!

    M.C. Busman
    mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net
    M.C. Busman

    mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

    "May the Wind at Your Back Always be Your Own"
    --Anonymous Co-Worker

  13. #28
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    For those of you that said you would pull your child out of the class, what sort of message are you sending to your kid and how do you feel about that?

    I know if my mom had pulled me out of class because of an HIV scare, it would have sent mixed messages.

  14. #29
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    Interesting related link concernes Montalvo v. Radcliffe, 167 F.3d 873, 9 A.D. Case 15 (4th Cir. 1999):

    http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m...rm=AIDS+karate

    If that doesn't work, try searching under "AIDS Karate" on Findarticles.com

    Best to All,

    M.C. Busman

    mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net
    M.C. Busman

    mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

    "May the Wind at Your Back Always be Your Own"
    --Anonymous Co-Worker

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by red_fists
    Hi.

    I guess it would depend on the level of Tai Chi taught there.

    If it is feel-good Forms Tai Chi I would keep my Kid there
    Peter... you're referring to "Tai-cheeee" where you seek everything else but martial training... as opposed to...

    Originally posted by red_fists

    but if it was a school like mine where live Blades, Weapons & contact sparring are taught I would be thinking twice about it.
    like where I study & train. My reference above is a joke I picked up from the Usenet RMA group. It refers to the group that "wants to be one with everything & non martial" as opposed to the martial taiji practitioners.

    Originally posted by red_fists

    But as was stated in an earlier Post I also can't see many Kids doing Tai Chi at a young age.
    Only place I saw that was in Chen village China. Willingly practicing Taiji anyway... Some of the village kids did the Lao Jia Yi Lu routine. It was done like a child would, but fun to see anyway!
    ********

    Chorus: "Hey Torquemada, whaddya say?"
    Torquemada: "Any new converts today?"
    Chorus: "Nay Nay Nay"
    Torquemada: "Send in the nuns!!"

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