"Goshin Do" karate legitimacy?

[Tetsutaka]

Originally posted by Vision Quest
Thanks for the reply. I actually have one of the brochures given out by this dojo, and the "Samurai prince" thing is right there in black and white. My friend didn't hear this stuff from an imaginative fellow student, he has heard the claims himself from the instructor. Including the claim about the katas being done outside Samurai castles.

Well there ya have it. My advice - don't just walk away - run...

It's rare that you get this kind of crap in writing, as most of these guys will have enough in "the ole tea kettle" to reserve some form of plausible deniability for the eventual backsliding.

In fact - if this guys is so deluded that he's putting this in writing, then I'd suggest that he might actually be dangerous. Anyone that is conviced of his fantasies to that level sould be avoided with due diligence.

BTW, Is this guy in Greensboro, NC?

[TimHillman]

Gerard Durant has been dead for over ten years. A lot of inaccurate myths have cropped up about him in that time. I believe that he spent time in Japan before the war and was also there for a time after the war, although I have no proof of this. I have a copy of a letter from Richard P. Baillargeon dated July 1,1969 to "All karate instructors" stating that "Mr. Durant, Godan Karate, is the authorized Seishin-Kai Union Representative for the North Eastern part of the United States." Richard P. Baillargeon was the United States Representative of Siyogo Kuniba from June, 1964 until October 1974. He left the Seishin-Kai to form the United States National Karate and JuJutsu Union. I also have copies of several of Durant's Seishin-Kai certificates, a certificate recognizing "Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo" as a school "in good standing of the Seishin-Kai Karate Union." I also have copies of 4th and 5th Dan ranking from Masaru Shintani and the Nippon Karate Kai. Mr. Durant taught the Shito Ryu kata of the Seishin-Kai to his early students. I believe he formulated the kata now taught in most of the Goshin schools a began teaching them in the early 1970's. You might try to contact his son Matthew Durant who lives in the Wilkes Barre, Pa. area. Goshin Do is I believe an off shoot of the Seishin-Kai now run by a gentleman named Ken Johnson.

[Vision Quest]

[i]"Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo" [/B]

I got an email today from a guy who said that one translation of "Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo" is "place to play with your own body parts".

I don't claim to know Japanese, is this true, or just a funny joke?

[Vision Quest]

Originally posted by TimHillman
Gerard Durant has been dead for over ten years. A lot of inaccurate myths have cropped up about him in that time.

Thanks, Tim. I just found a very interesting "biography" of Mr. Durant. The worshipful, awestruck tone of this article is typical of the cult-like atmosphere at my friend's Goshin Do dojo. The entire article (quite long) is at the following URL: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mtran/newsletter9901.html

For those who are just interested in a synopsis, I've condensed the article here, adding my own subtitles (in bold).

<B>Mystical Oriental Beginnings...</B>

"Gerard Durant was born on February 22, 1922 (2-22-22). This numerical symmetry makes a symbolic analysis tempting… legend has it that Horace Durant married in Japan, and Gerard Durant was the issue of that union. … Japanese in-laws disapproved of the union, but a maternal uncle, seeing his nephew's position as half gaijin …took pity on the boy. …after rigorous training in aikijutsu and karate under his uncle, young Gerard began to hold his own--sometimes even more than that…Gerard Durant may well have been trained in traditional Asian martial arts by Japanese teachers during his boyhood.…… our best evidence suggests he had training in at least two martial arts (conjecture has already led us to conclude that he was exposed to additional training), and his appetite for Asian fighting systems had been whetted".


<B>The Rambo rep and of course, the CIA!</B>

"Toward the beginning of the Second World War, Gerard Durant enrolled in the U. S. Army…friend and fellow martial artist, Kun Tao Grandmaster Arthur Sikes, characterized Gerard Durant's military service as "anything the government wanted done". At Master Durant's death in 1991, it was necessary to request his service records for a military funeral. The records arrived in an attaché case handcuffed to the wrist of a government courier who transported them directly to the funeral home and directly back to Washington--hardly standard procedure… On the basis of this information, we can assume an involvement in covert operations."


<B>Trained under all the masters of the Orient (and of course became a ninja too)!</B>

"Gerard Durant joined the U.S. Merchant Marines in the late … As soon as Durant's vessel docked in Japan, he jumped ship and (became) a student of Sensei Hirao Murakami at a time when only Japanese were taught the system ….Murakami Sensei, … did not issue the certificates and diplomas that are pro forma nowadays. after Gerard Durant jumped ship in Japan he joined a group known as the Yamabushi … who are credited by some (including members of the Goshin community) as providing the archetype for the Ninja. … Legend holds that he trained directly under O-sensei Ueshiba..."


<B>Magical Powers!</B>

"… Using his photographic memory, Gerard Durant recorded and reinterpreted knowledge throughout his life…Durant was said to possess the ability to control chi in order to lighten his body or make it heavier…(he would) take a piece of cardboard, like a cardboard box, and lean it up against the wall. We watched him walk up it and down it and never bend it. "When I asked him to do it again," Matthew Durant reports, " he just smiled at me and walked away."

[Vision Quest]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tetsutaka

[i]BTW, Is this guy in Greensboro, NC?

;o)

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-06-2000 at 02:24 PM]

[Tonya Easton]

Where to begin.....Here we go again.

Vision Quest - Do you really want the answers to your questions of do you just want to slam the style?
Who is the instructor and who is the student. Could it be that this guy is claiming to be a student of Mr. Durant and has nothing to back it?
I'm not surprised to see Kens reply and somehow I suspect maybe you aren't either.

I am a Goshinist and very proud of it. My Sensei is Mr Carl McClafferty who is presently in Japan visiting Otake Sensei, Nakamura Sensei and others there. He has NUMEROUS times given his email and home address to ANYONE with questions or interest in our style. Mr. Guy Powers who is a very knowledgeable man and unlike some others who post, actually researches and has interest to find out the truth and not just slam, has made comments and quotes previously on E Budo regarding this very subject. The "proof" was sent to him and he found it satisfactory.

Once again.... If you are truly interested in the art and truly want information instead of just jumping on an old band wagon..... Please email and I will be happy to connect you with a legitimate person who can answer your questions.

As for those who posted above stating that our style is stiff and we don't learn how to use a bo, defend against a knife attack.... those things are taught at even a purple belt level. Come at me with a bo and see what I can and can't do.

As for those who don't believe that goshinists are real martial artists.... you haven't met the ones I have and funny how none have accepted the invitations to come and see for themselves! We are all over the united states and can probably link you to one of our schools or intructors within a few hundred miles. We are not an "evil cult" and althought there may be those in other styles who may make an invitation to "teach someone a lesson", we are not like that.

As for the top three goshin black belts under Mr. Durant....I'm not sure if they are the top three, but they all trained directly under Mr. Gerald Durant and I would love to see anyone work with Mr. Cavalier, Mr. Cappela, Mr. Harmon, or Mr. McClafferty and make the statement that anyone of them are ineffective.

Please don't misunderstand my post. We are overall very friendly people with a genuine love of the art, and very willing to work with other schools and/or teach anyone willing to learn our style. It seems stupid to even have to say this but we are not a cult just normal people who love what we do and at the same time respect others styles also.

Don't believe everything you hear, I have little doubt based on this individuals previous posts, that the post to be "delivered next week", will be an array of one persons personal mission to discredit and slam something he knows NOTHING about.

Thank You to many of the above people who posted for not believeing everything that has been posted and especially for the statement that basically said go look for yourself and then judge for yourself.

Again my apologies for the tone of this post I'm just so tired of people disrespecting very honorable men they have never met and refuse to meet in spite of multiple invitations.

Thank you,

[Vision Quest]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tonya Easton

[i]Vision Quest - Do you really want the answers to your questions of do you just want to slam the style?

My friend is becoming increasingly skeptical of the bizarre claims made by his Goshin do Karate instructor and wishes to independently verify them with the martial arts communuty. That's all.

[i]I'm not surprised to see Kens reply and somehow I suspect maybe you aren't either.

Your assumptions are out in left field. Neither my friend nor I has ever heard of "Ken" before his post yesterday.

[i]Once again.... If you are truly interested in the art and truly want information instead of just jumping on an old band wagon.....

What "old band wagon"? We're not aware of Goshin Do karate ever being discussed here before. And discussion forums such as E-budo are wonderful opportunities for martial artists of all styles, skill levels and knowledge bases to join and share information. If you have information to add, post it here for all to see, your input would be welcome.

[i]As for those who posted above stating that our style is stiff and we don't learn how to use a bo, defend against a knife attack.... those things are taught at even a purple belt level.

Not at the Goshin Do Karate dojo my friend trains at.

[i]As for the top three goshin black belts under Mr. Durant....I'm not sure if they are the top three, but they all trained directly under Mr. Gerald Durant

I have, right here in front of me, a printed brochure that states that "Steve Capela, Bob Bohack and Ralph Porfilio were the first three students of Master Durant to recieve the coveted Black Belt". There is no mention at all in the brochure of the gentlemen you named.

[i]It seems stupid to even have to say this but we are not a cult

Ok...

[i]Don't believe everything you hear,

I don't. And neither does my friend. That's why he asked me to inquire about what he's heard with his own ears at this dojo. And read with his own eyes in the dojo's marketing brochures. And so, I posted here, to state the claims made by this particular Goshin Do instructor for all to see, and discuss them. What exactly is it about Goshin and the claims of some if its instructors that you feel shouldn't be discussed openly in a public forum?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-05-2000 at 10:02 PM]

[Tonya Easton]

Vision,
Again I apologize for the tone of my post and for insinuating that you were somehow in league with Ken. You would probably better understand my position if you were aware of the many previous attacks on our style and the many untruths that have been written. when I saw the quote you printed from Samual, "Goshin....... a place to play with ones own body parts", It sounded to me like you were not really interested in learning the truth. Hence the content and tone of my reply.
As for the "three top black belts.." that you mentioned, if you re-read my post I did mention Mr. Capela and he is one of the very honorable persons that I was referring to. As for the other two, Mr. Bohac I have not personaly met, however both Mr. Harmon and my Sensei Mr. McClafferty trained under him also. As for Mr. Portfilio, I do not know him. It is my understanding that your belief of him being one of Mr. Durants first three black belts is incorrect. My information and understanding, is that Mr. Portfilio is/was a fourth dan at the time of Mr. Durants death. Possibly you or your friend misread or misunderstood the document, or the document you have is in error. I am definitally not the best historian however I can put you or your friend in contact with persons who can clarify any questions you may have. The problem is there is so much Bull---- out there it is really hard to determine the facts from the myths based on internet postings. These facts I have stated are true and documented.
I have no problem discussing Goshin on a public forum. I do however get very tired of hearing the same old crap from people who jump on posts like these to take another opportunity to disrepect something they no nothing about. That is why I offer the ability to E-mail, call or visit to clarify any questions one may have. It really does tend to separate the ones who just want to spout crap, from those who genuinely want to know.
I have not been involved in the previous posts, however just could not stand by and watch another round without offering up some truth.
I am sorry that there are people out there who have had bad experiances with instructors who CALL THEMSELVES goshinists. I'm sure just about every other style has had this occur as well.
I believe in this art and will continue to study it. I hope your friend really does some homework to find out what we are like. Possibly the person he is working with, again I don't know who that is, is not representative of the entire Goshin style.
Sorry for the length I just really wanted to answer any questions and clarify any misunderstandings.
As I am sure the attacks will continue from some, I will not jump in on the forum, but the offer remains for those to contact us if there is a true interest.

[TimHillman]

Sam Sharpe,
Interesting stories. Have you ever played the game where some one tells a story then it is repeated by several people until the last version no longer sounds anything like the original? I have never heard your funeral stories. They sound like some one's invention to me. I don't know Ralph Porfilio. Vince Christiano studied with Mr. Durant in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I believe that he left Gosin Jutsu in the mid 1970's. Steve Capela, William Cavalier and Bob Bohac were his senior students. Mr. Capela and Mr. Cavalier were ranked Black Belts in the Seishin-Kai, Mr. Cavalier was already a black belt in Seishin-Kai when he began training with Mr. Durant.
I met Mr. Durant several times at tournaments and clinics in the 1970's. He was an excellent practitioner and absolutely fearless. It's a shame that his reputation has been sullied with tall stories.

[Brent Easton]

Tim,
My wife was at the computer banging away and I had to log on and find out why. You hit the truth on the head about the stories. But the fact remains that Mr. Durant was friends with alot of old time Martial Artists who I don't think would have associated with him if he wasn't any good both as a martial artist and a man.
The problem is that everyone was kept in line until he died then it collapsed with everyone making claims and doing their own thing.

Tell everyone in NY that I said, HI.


Brent Easton

[George Ledyard]

"The instructor also constantly puts down other styles, especially TKD and aikido, calling them "modern day junk". Which is bizarre, since they also claim Durant was a student of Aikido's founder, O-Sensei Morehei Ueshiba! "

They're invited to come play at my place any time. We had a guy come in a couple of years ago whose karate teacher had said much the same thing. He went home saying that he was going to look for an Aikido dojo. Guess it wasn't what his teacher had led him to believe.

Seriously, from the number of things you've said about this place you have virtually covered the top ten warning signs of a bogus school. Kind of like the place I taught Aikido for a while years ago. The head Sensei claimed to be teaching Ninjutsu and had all sorts of certificates up on his wall. The problem was that I could read Japanese just well enough to puzzle them out. His only Ninjutsu training had come from two weekend seminars with one of the big guys in California, but at least the certificates looked cool! Anyway, there are many reasons you train. Being able to handle yourself may be one of them but it is usually one of the minor reasons for those who have been in it for a long time. When there is that much bull#$%^(* flying around a person, he can't possibly represent the kind of role model that you'd be looking for in a teacher (unless you are training to be a confidence man). Any gym teacher can give you a good workout, tell your brother to set his standards higher and look around for someone worth training with. The teacher is more important than the style.

I want to be clear that I am in no way demeaning the style which this teacher syas he represents or the teachers that developed the style. But the specific instructor you describe is clearly misrepresenting himself. And forget the "thiry years till you are worthy to be taught stuff". One of the absolute dead giveaways on the cult front is secret teachings that are only given to the elect. Figure at that rate you're good for about 36 thousand dollars of income to this fellow before you're ready for swordsmanship. I wouldn't hang out waiting.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 08-06-2000 at 03:20 AM]

[Vision Quest]

Originally posted by Tonya Easton
Vision,
Again I apologize for the tone of my post and for insinuating that you were somehow in league with Ken.

No need to apologize, I was just puzzled by the assumption I was in cahoots with someone I'd never even heard of.

[i]When I saw the quote you printed from Samual, "Goshin....... a place to play with ones own body parts", It sounded to me like you were not really interested in learning the truth.

Like I said, that's something someone emailed me, and since I neither read nor speak Japanese, I have no idea of that's actually one of the possible translations. Is it?

[i]As for Mr. Portfilio, I do not know him. It is my understanding that your belief of him being one of Mr. Durants first three black belts is incorrect.
Possibly you or your friend misread or misunderstood the document, or the document you have is in error.

We don't know what the truth is, that's why we're asking. We did not "misread" the brochure, I typed the claim verbatim from it.

I think it's great that we have someone here now who is knowledgeable about Goshin and Durant. Here's the first question my friend would like to know: Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant earn his Shodan? Looking forward to your reply.

[Tonya Easton]

Thank You for understanding my frustration. For the questions you have asked above I will refer them to my husband, Brent Easton, who is very involved in the history and also Mr. Hillman. They know much more than I.

Good luck on your quest for the truth, it is out there for those that really want it.

[Vision Quest]

Originally posted by TimHillman
Interesting stories. Have you ever played the game where some one tells a story then it is repeated by several people until the last version no longer sounds anything like the original?

Yes, I'm wondering if that is the case with Mr. Durant's "jumped ship, became a 6th degree ninja, etc" stories.

[i]I have never heard your funeral stories. They sound like some one's invention to me.

Well, a wee bit of clarification here, they're not <I>my</I> stories, I found the bio at http://pw1.netcom.com/~mtran/newsletter9901.html

[i]I met Mr. Durant several times at tournaments and clinics in the 1970's. He was an excellent practitioner and absolutely fearless. It's a shame that his reputation has been sullied with tall stories.

If people are telling tall tales, then they likely originated with these Goshin instructors like my friend's, and others. And also by the person who wrote that bio (link above). My friend simply wants the truth. Here are a couple specific questions he asked me to post:

1) Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receive his Shodan? His Nidan? Sandan, etc?

2) Was Mr. Durant a "ninja"?

3) Were the Goshin Do Katas really done today exactly the way they were done outside Samurai castles centuries ago?

4) Did Mr. Durant study under O'Sensei Morehei Ueshiba and if so, did he achieve black belt rank in aikido?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-06-2000 at 04:33 PM]

[Vision Quest]

[i]Seriously, from the number of things you've said about this place you have virtually covered the top ten warning signs of a bogus school. ............(2) The teacher is more important than the style.

Yes, this is about the way if it. My buddy states that the students are expected to practically worship this guy. Young blonde female students can expect to be hit upon before they even reach yellow belt. Several times a year, the plate is passed to buy expensive, lavish gifts for the instructor, with each student expected to give at least $20, if not more. The names of students who give little or nothing are reported to the instructor. Students who give large cash gifts or free services (fixing the guy's vehicle, taking him on expensive fishing trips, etc) are given what the instructor calls "executive privilege".

[i]And forget the "thiry years till you are worthy to be taught stuff". One of the absolute dead giveaways on the cult front is secret teachings that are only given to the elect. Figure at that rate you're good for about 36 thousand dollars of income to this fellow before you're ready for swordsmanship. I wouldn't hang out waiting.
Most likely it's because he can't do anything with the sword and he figures people will be gone in less than 30 years so he won't have to show them anything.

Yeah this to me was pretty much a dead giveway. Especially when the guy didn't know the term "iaido" and had those cheap plastic-handled fake swords on the wall! :o)

[i]I think your buddy should sit down and figure out what he wants from the Martial Arts and find a school that will fit not only his peace of mind but his martial needs as well.

Yes, he's already pretty much done making his decision. But for some reason, he's even more keen on finding the truth, now that he's decided to leave. I think he's pissed about being duped and lied to and wants to know just how bad the deception was. Can't say I blame him.