Judo at the Kodokan,

[Daruma]

Recently I had a conversation with a Ex Judoka and Student of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, one of the topics that came up was training at the Kodokan. When I mentioned I was considering training at the Kodokan, he shook his head and said he would'nt recommend it.

When I asked why, he answered that the Kodokan was more focused on Churning out Olympic class Judo Ka and if I wanted to learn Real Judo I should go to one of the local clubs, where I would learn something more useful. I would like to know what people think, which would be better Kodokan or local club, I don't really want to be a Olympic Judoka

[Neil Yamamoto]

A couple people I know have indicated similar notions, mostly along the lines that training at the Kodokan has declined in quality.

Jon Bluming told me that it was not worth the time unless you wanted to just spend time with some of the older sensei who are there still, learn a little history of the place, that type of thing.

Anyway, I suggest you make up your own mind after visiting several different dojo.

[Don Cunningham]

Having trained at the Kodokan and several other dojos in Japan, my observations are as follows:

Kodokan: Beautiful facility, especially the large main dojo with spectator seating all around on the top floor. Very good mats, lots of space. The typical players tend to be middle class level. Good technique, but not too hard in randori. The facility is closed by 8 p.m. weeknights and often unavailable on Saturdays due to frequent tournaments, which makes it difficult to practice there if you are also working.

Local Private Dojos: These usually cater to high school and/or junior high school competitors. Quality of facility varies significantly, from good to extremely poor. In most cases, though, the size is small and may often be overcrowded. The problem is finding one which accepts foreign judoka and has regular players who are physically large enough to provide a challenge. On the other hand, these local dojos tend to stay open later in the evenings and some weekends, making it much more convenient for the working judoka.

Police Judo Clubs: These are usually good facilities with older, middle aged players. The practice is usually paced a bit slower than the other dojos. Randori is generally at an easier and more gentle level since most of the judoka are older and employed full-time. (Everyone wants a good workout, but they also know they got to get up in the morning, too.) I prefer these to most of the other clubs, but it can sometimes be difficult to get your foot in the door. Introductions from someone you might meet at the Kodokan or other local dojos are essential to being accepted the first time, but the police clubs are usually quite accessible for return visits.

University Judo Clubs: Enter at your own risk. These can be extremely hard workouts with randori at full shiai levels. The typical university judoka is an 18 to 20 year old who is out to prove their masculinity to everyone else. They also are completely fearless and believe that they are injury-proof like any other normal teenager. The best way is to visit as an assistant instructor. As such, you're not required to participate in the really hard randori and might get out alive. Otherwise, be prepared to get your butt kicked.

Each individual's experiences may differ, but generally the Japanese judo scene can be quite a lot of fun and you're sure to meet some great judoka at any of these places.

[vadrip]

I also heard that the University Judo clubs can be rather rough, but I've also heard about the Police Judo clubs being the same way too. I've also heard they're the best places to learn from too. So you never really know when comes down to it because different people have had different experiences with certain dojos and clubs. I never really heard about anyone's experiences too much when it concerns the local private dojos though. I do remember reading and hearing about the Kodokan catering exclusively to pure sport judo more so than anything else. I think the Kodokan probably serves more as an historical piece more so than the best dojo to learn judo in Japan.

[MarkF]

I've been hearing that the Kodokan had long since been the place to train since the sixties, but you do have more choices there than others. They have randori only classes you can take with the "old guys" walking around to help with your waza. For some who go to live there while training, the fees for that are not bad at all (I have the list of fees somewhere but I'm sure it changes with the weather).

Yes, they do train for shiai, but then it has always been like that. If you wish to do kata only, there is that choice, too. The Kodokan shiai varies from the IJF and most tournaments are closer to what the shiai was for in the first place. They are not like the IJF or national bodies of judo there, so get some recommendations based on what you are looking for.

Getting to shodan or higher at the Kodokan generally means something, and no matter what your dan status is, one must get shodan even if one is godan from another foreign body.

The police dojo generally turn out tougher judoka, the universities have also turned out excellent judoka, so do as you would do here or anywhere else: check out the schools, take some classes, and then make your decision.

Shiai has been around since the beginnings so that is includes the more traditional route, and participation can teach you something, about yourself, and what you are learning in judo.

Mark

[Don Cunningham]

Here's an article about my favorite local Japanese judo dojo with updated photos from my recent visit back there in March:

Asahi Judo Academy

As you can see in the following photograph, there are lots of good judoka even here. Of the three instructors, one is a former Olympian (far right) and all three are former All-Japan Judo Tournament competitors. (The only exception is the slightly overweight and middle-aged gaijin.) The brightly colored plastic bats are an inside joke. Asahi Dai sensei (third from left) uses them to whack juniors on the head when he thinks they aren't practicing hard enough or paying close attention.

[DustyMars]

My wife and I returned from Japan on April 2 after visiting with our son and family (NAF Atsugi). We went up to the Kodokan so I could reminisce over old times. It had been 42 years since I was there and earned shodan and finished the Air Force’s combative measures
(hand-to-hand combat) classes. That was in 1961. My first visit there was right after the opening date of the new Kodokan in 1959. In those days the International representative was Kotani sensei and many of us knew him well after many years of association.

Judo then was fairly rough and tumble, highly skilled payers would come there to practice and learn from the old guys. We Americans would most often work out elsewhere, i.e., police dojos nearby or some school. It was much better Judo but the Kodokan was also great to learn from after all I was just a 21-year old shodan then, so what did I know.

However, this time I was disappointed with the skill levels I saw on the floor and tried to think objectively. After all, it has been since 1952 that I first began practicing Judo and one may feel a little over their heads by then. I assume most of the Judoka on the floor were high school students. Hope so anyway. If they were anything like international level then at 62 years old I am ready to begin practicing for the Olympics

I did visit the dojo where my son worked out and a couple of the black belts showed promise. They were nice and friendly, so that is all anyone could expect from Judo players.

Anyway, it was a nice trip and we enjoyed it. I talked with a Judoka at the Kodokan that must have been near my age and had those broken ears. We had a great conversation about the good old days. Then we toured the museum and I saw some of the photos of sensei I had met during my stay in the Far East. I was stationed first at Ashiya AFB, Japan then Naha AB, Okinawa. Judo on Okinawa is top rate and rough, just like I liked it then. Okinawans didn’t seem to want too much limelight, as in international shiai and all that. I am sure if they did they too would be well known as well.

Also, a few times we would go over to the older Kodokan, now a boxing gyms, and just stair at the walls, then work out. Also, since we Air Force guys knew Kotani well we invited him to clinic us at Bergstrom AFB, Texas twice and he was happy to see us again. These were the good old days for me, happy and in good shape! Oh well, all good things must end.

[MarkF]

Hi, Jeff,
I'm glad you got your posting problems settled and that they are in the past.
**********

I remember reading of one judoka who went back to the Kodokan after a long absence, and stated "This isn't MY judo." That was in the early 1930s. I suppose everyone has their "own judo."

Mine comes starting in the early 1960s and later, and at the age of sixteen or seventeen I was chosen (asked?) to go to the Kodokan, to live there, and train for one year, expenses paid, except for transportation.

I wasn't able to go for many reasons, but when that invite was forgotten, my teacher later told me "It has been a long time since (The Kodokan) was the place to train."

The funny part of it was that my teacher was also airforce, though it was probably in the late fifties or so when he trained there.
*****

Another funny story: I heard from a friend who knew Hank Ogawa-sensei who is well into his eighties, and while watching the Canadian Judo Team finals on the CBC, he remarked "You know, If I were twenty years younger I could beat those guys" and then changed the channel to watch Tiger Woods.

Perhaps it isn't so funny because that wasn't the first time I've heard that, and Jeff's "joke" about making the Olympic team at sixty-two doesn't seem to be all that funny. I'd bet on the guy with experience against the young "lift and pull" players. Vince Tamura isn't in very good health these days and recently lost his wife, but he was the master's judo champ for some seventeen years. He finally quit because, according to him, "There wasn't any competition."


Mark

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by MarkF
Getting to shodan or higher at the Kodokan generally means something, and no matter what your dan status is, one must get shodan even if one is godan from another foreign body.

The police dojo generally turn out tougher judoka, the universities have also turned out excellent judoka, so do as you would do here or anywhere else: check out the schools, take some classes, and then make your decision.
Mark

From my experience, the Kodokan is one of the last places left where "Black Belt" means something. I'd accept a Kodokan Shodan over a Tenth Dan (Be it Kempo, TKD, Ninjutsu, etc.) from a newer school any day. The "tenth" degree would have to prove himself/herself to me - the Kodokan Black Belt would already have.

[DustyMars]

It is difficult for a person to evaluate how good they are at something. It just seems to me that Judo players were a lot rougher and more skilled in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Since we Air Force people had a great opportunity to learn from the old guys, as with Mifune and Kotani, et al. Kotani was the last of the judans at the Kodokan but was voted into that rank by the big shots and high ranks there. That was the only way to promote above kudan because all the 10th dans were gone. It’s like where does it end – at ikkyu

So, in those days the military guys, Goerge Harris, Mel Bruno, Rick Mertens, Karl Geis, and many others (including me) had a distinct advantage over others in this country because we livid and studied Judo in Japan and/or Okinawa. When I went to Japan I was 19 year old! My whole Martial Arts life was formed or molded by those sensei there and the GI’s with me. When I returned to the States I was a holy terror, but that soon ended with a family, new careers, other stuff and an extreme hatred for Judo politics. So, the last shiai I participated in, and Kotani sensei was there visiting with us, I wiped up the mat with everyone in my weight class and one above. I was then instantly promote to nidan by my sensei with e support of Katani sensei himself! I stayed nidan for 9 years because of he stinking politics until my old sensei recommend me to the Kodokan for sandan then later on to yodan. In my teenager years I dreamed of becoming yodan so to be eligible to teach. Of course, most of us who did teach Judo in the Armed Forces were lower than yodan.

Now I have my Kodokan license to teach Judo and assist in kata teaching. Problem is, I walked away from Judo 12 years ago. Getting old maybe

[vadrip]

I'm curious to know how different judo is in Okinawa as opposed to Japan and everywhere else? Do the Okinawans practice more sport judo? Self defense? Kata? Old judo? What?

[DustyMars]

Well, please remember that it was over 40 years ago and gray matter is deteriorating. The Okinawans in general are very stocky people, shorter than Japanese and tend to work as farmers. So, they tended to be more sports minded, so to speak. We had shiai, usually kohaku shiai, at the Naha Police Dojo at least once a week and there was always shiai going somewhere else. Practice was a lot of shiai’ing going on, in other words. But, kata was always on the agenda at our dojo near the base and our sensei at Naha AB insisted we practice both nage and katame no kata once a week at least.

I can’t put into words what I think I remember of the difference in Judo between the two countries. It was likely similar in most ways, but a bit more rough and tumble on Okinawa. However, Judo in the USA is less skilled and technical than it was in the Far East back then (IMHO not now). We tended to be a bit more relaxed and workouts were not as rigorous than over there. Whereas we did practice kata there I could count on one hand the American dojos that I worked out in that even gave kata a second thought (except for females that is). It may seem strange for what I stated above but Okinawans were really less sports-wise in Judo than in Japan or the USA. Americans tend to play at Judo instead of play Judo, or live it as many of us older military types did for many years. Judo really means the Way, and we interpreted it to mean a way of life in Judo.

Old Judo. Well, when we pass through that dissatisfied state of existence called our “teens” and then until we reach the age of 35, us males tend to be less able to properly acquire knowledge. Our male hormones dictate the course of action and our goals are to meet and mix with as many female hormones as possible. Maybe that is why we try to beat the hell out of each other in our youth. By 35 we begin to use our brains and find dueling stupid and a waste of time. Judo then becomes an art and a way to practice what we missed out on for the first three decades of our life.

Did I confuse you as much as rereading this did me?

[vadrip]

I understood it, the old judo question was in reference to prewar judo and if the Okinawans trained in at all. Of course, being that you trained over there at a different period than the present I'm not sure it fully answers the other questionsof how they train now though. It' s insight nevertheless though to how they had trained. I appreciate the feedback irregardless if the times have changed as far as their training may be concerned.

[DustyMars]

Orlando, I see that you live up in VA. Do you know Jim Bregman? He lives near DC and the last time we spoke by phone I promised to visit with him. However, I retired and moved back to Florida and for got to call him. If you know or see him please tell him I forgot and I apologize or not calling back.

I will think on your question more and see if more memories bubble up within the gray matter. The Okinawans did practice Judo before the war and I knew at least a few of the older Judoka that lived through the war and did practice before. They are known mostly for karate there, but Judo was a big thing for Okianwans for the same period as it was in Japan.

Take care

[Georg Carlsson]

Originally posted by Daruma
Recently I had a conversation with a Ex Judoka and Student of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, one of the topics that came up was training at the Kodokan. When I mentioned I was considering training at the Kodokan, he shook his head and said he would'nt recommend it.

I recomend it! I have been training there, the skill level is way beyond the westerners. Even thou it seem to gradually get worse. Especially the "free practice" session, is wery educative. Very god kata sessions as well, if you want them.

When I asked why, he answered that the Kodokan was more focused on Churning out Olympic class Judo Ka and if I wanted to learn Real Judo I should go to one of the local clubs, where I would learn something more useful. I would like to know what people think, which would be better Kodokan or local club, I don't really want to be a Olympic Judoka

The movments tend to become smaler and smaler, when you focus on competition. But there is older teachers present att the Kodokan training, who are really skilled, even thou it could take long time before they help you if they ever will.
I Trained hard for two months almost before I was taken ceriously. And they helped me very much(some of them!), countering evry step I tuck.

I also asked them about kumi-kata, and other things wich are popula or in fokus in the west and they had no idea of what I was talking about. "This is not Judo", this is europen style or Americn style etc etc.
Guess if I was hapy to come home to practice Judo afterwards,
NO, THe post even don't know what real Judo is even thou they study "Judo".

Take care!