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Thread: Albert Church picture

  1. #1
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    Default Albert Church picture

    An actual picture of Albert Church (if this link works...):

    http://members.tripod.com/~C_martial...sterchurch.jpg

    ~~M.C. Busman
    M.C. Busman

    [email protected]

    "May the Wind at Your Back Always be Your Own"
    --Anonymous Co-Worker

  2. #2
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    Hello M.C.,

    I had to post the url in another window for it to open.

    I've had this photo for years and even used Photoshop to brush out the signature overlay. I think Tony Annesi might have superimposed the signature block.

    Anyway, few pictures of Mr. Church are out there -- If anyone has some to share, please contact me by e-mail. Especially if there are clear photos of his menjo or scrolls (I can personally vouch that he had two scrolls ... I just couldn't read Japanese then). Heck, who am I fooling ... I can't read Japanese now!!

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  3. #3
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    Default

    LINKY NO WORKY....
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  4. #4
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    Default

    Links working for me......

    Takes a while to load up though.
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.shorinjikempo.harrow.ac.uk




  5. #5
    Sean T. Fourkiller Guest

    Lightbulb Ok, new way of browsing photo...

    Ok, the tripod page is set up where you can't link to the photo directly. So, if you're having trouble seeing the thing, go here first:

    http://members.tripod.com/~C_martialarts/


    then click on the "Albert Curtis Church" link for the photo.

    All I know about Mr. Church is that he reputedly studied under a korean named "C.C. Wang" and inherited a sokeship. and Church's wife reportedly got the sokeship after he died. Could someone tell me why Albert Church is being discussed in the Bad Budo forum?

  6. #6
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    Hello Sean,

    Could someone tell me why Albert Church is being discussed in the Bad Budo forum?
    I was going to make the same sort of comment earlier when I posted my original response; however, since I try to remain objective, I cannot disagree with Mr. Church's inclusion here. ...As much as that hurts me.

    Mr. Church did some things that are questionable and he must reap the ill with the good. Some of his former students and I (probably a small minority) look at the whole man, warts and all. We recognize his warts, but we neither deny them nor do we dwell on them; instead, we focus on his overall good portions. We don't ignore or hide his faults -- we use them as lessons. Likewise, we don't attribute any rank to him that cannot be empirically documented -- we try to accurately label what is proveable, and what is "urban legend." Tall stories aside, he was a good martial artist and a good teacher -- and I count myself lucky to have been his student.

    The "C.C. Whang" name was a post-1972 manufacture, as far as I know. He always called his Korean teacher "Kim Chi Koo" when I was at the dojo. In later years I've seen the explanation that "CC Whang" is the Chinese pronunciation of "Kim Chi Koo." It would be analogous to calling me "Guido FitzRaleigh de Poer" [instead of Guy, son of Raleigh Power] simply because my long-ago ancestor was a Norman knight. Dunno why he wanted to exploit the Chinese-ness of a Korean art -- but as an aside, I will say that the television series "Kung Fu" was then a very popular program.

    As to inheriting a "sokeship" -- Korea has no soke system. Mr Church always told me that he was "recalled" to Japan by Mr. Kim so the system could be passed on (Mr. Kim was allegedly dying of cancer). Some evidence supports the theory that he first met Mr. Kim in Japan circa 1967 (an unauthenticated -- and disputed -- letter from Republic of Korea Military Intelligence responding to questions from Mr. Church while he was stationed at Camp Zama, Japan). The letter provides data contradicting the later story that tells of Mr. Church meeting Mr. Kim in Korea and studing under him during the Korean War (1951-52 I think) .... This second story is hard for me to take at face value (especially after reading the ROKMI letter).

    After the Korean system was passed to him (as the story continues), Kuniba Shogo sensei was shown the scroll and was so impressed, he encouraged Mr. Church to develop his own system. He then allegedly wrote a shorter scroll supporting Mr. Church.

    "Not so" said Kuniba sensei (and reiterated by his son, Kosho). Well -- the only way to settle this story is for Catherine Church to provide copies of the scrolls so they can be translated. I know the scrolls exist because he showed them to me -- even unwound the long one in my presence. I couldn't read Japanese/Chinese then -- but I had just returned from Bangkok, Thailand where I had seen Chinese characters every day for 2 years. I could tell the scrolls were not written by him because the characters were beautifully brushed. The long scroll was made of lengths of paper glued together, then "mounted" on a scroll backing. Each paper-join had two thumbprints, one near the top, the other near the bottom to ensure authenticity.

    Anyway, if ever I could get copies of both scrolls I could then verify whether or not they are a "densho" and a Kuniba scroll of support. If there is a scroll of support, we could conjecture that Kuniba sensei had conducted "damage control" after Mr. Church became a liability. Are they authentic, or aren't they? The jury is still out.

    The sad part? Mr. Church didn't need to embellish his accomplishments; he was highly ranked for those days. So far I have authenticated the following legitimate certifications (culled from photos provided by former students)--

    1) 5th dan in Motobu-ha Shito ryu; awarded by Kuniba Shogo.
    2) 3rd dan in Hakkoryu jujutsu; awarded by Okuyama Ryuho.
    3) 3rd dan in Mugai Ryu iaido; awarded by Kuniba Shogo.
    4) Shihan license in karate; awarded by Hayashi Teruo.
    5) Senior judge for karate tournaments.

    There are more menjo, but the photographs are too fuzzy to read.

    Sheesh! I've said more than I intended.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  7. #7
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    Default Good Question.

    In all honesty, I happened to be here, reading the latest about the courageous darring-do of Sacharnoski & Co. . .and since our friend (yours & mine) Rowdy Roddy Sacharnoski is connected to Albert Church, here is where the link went. I'd never seen a picture of Albert Church, and figured most other folks hadn't either.

    Any suggestions on a better home for the Church link?

    Best to Y'all,

    M.C. Busman
    [email protected]
    M.C. Busman

    [email protected]

    "May the Wind at Your Back Always be Your Own"
    --Anonymous Co-Worker

  8. #8
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    Default Good Question.

    In all honesty, I happened to be here, reading the latest about the courageous darring-do of Sacharnoski & Co. . .and since our friend (yours & mine) Rowdy Roddy Sacharnoski is connected to Albert Church, here is where the link went. I'd never seen a picture of Albert Church, and figured most other folks hadn't either.

    Any suggestions on a better home for the Church link?

    Best to Y'all,

    M.C. Busman
    [email protected]
    M.C. Busman

    [email protected]

    "May the Wind at Your Back Always be Your Own"
    --Anonymous Co-Worker

  9. #9
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    The Church link is fine here, in my opinion. As Guy "ranted on" the warts, and the connection (be he innocent in any of the hijinks) to Rod S. is enough to put it here.

    While this may be the "Bad Budo" forum, it is still E-budo.com first so I really don't find a problem with it here. Since the inflated credentials are also part of his budo background, as are the true, factual accounts. Guy, as usual, has provided them and I am not in the habit of arguing Guy's personal experience with anyone.

    As one "bogus" Daito Ryu Aikibujutsu practitioner once told me about listing Sacharnoski in his bio as his judo teacher, "That is my background, good and bad. I cannot deny it so I listed it." He said of Sacharnoski: "The man is money-hungry." For a man's credentials in doubt, he seemed to be honest about this area of his background.

    I'd say that Albert Church may carry some lousy baggage, but since he is a link from the king of bad budo (OK, the John LaMonts of the world are obviously much, much worse), it shouldn't be surprising that he was brought in here.

    I think the best thing to do, if one is inclined toward the true martial artist named Albert Church, Jr., is to let the thread die without further comment.

  10. #10
    Laotse Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by MarkF
    The Church link is fine here, in my opinion. As Guy "ranted on" the warts, and the connection (be he innocent in any of the hijinks) to Rod S. is enough to put it here.

    I do not know anything about any of these characters, but I do have a question. Is this not guilt by association? For instance, to use a Christian analogy (I'm not a Christian myself), isn't this a bit like saying Jesus is tainted by his association with Judas, and therefore should rightfully be considered "bad Christian"?

  11. #11
    Sean T. Fourkiller Guest

    Exclamation Interesting lineage chart

    Wow! A.C. Church, Jr. got his Shihan(Jujutsu) grading from....
    http://www.jukokai.com/docs/html/clo...u_shihans.html

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    Sean,
    Wow! A.C. Church, Jr. got his Shihan(Jujutsu) grading from....
    http://www.jukokai.com/docs/html/cl...su_shihans.html
    Not quite. Mr. Church claimed his sokeship by inheretance, as well as by recognition from Kuniba sensei (who later disputed the claim). Rod met up with Mr. Church in 1972 after many years absence (he studied judo under Mr. Church as a 16 year old). When they met up again, Rod cross-ranked many of Mr. Church's students into his Jiujitsu Blackbelt Federation (JJBBF), and likewise, he and Mr. Church concocted a "Mutual Appreciation Society." He might have awarded Mr. Church a sokeship, but Mr. Church claimed that distinction well before Mr. Sacharnoski's award.

    Read all, believe less.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  13. #13
    Don Cunningham Guest

    Default

    According to a letter to the editor in Black Belt magazine, Rod Sacharnoski clearly states that he never trained with Albert Church, Jr. He insists their relationship was strickly business. Rod claims that he was a disciple of Harry Olsen who was allegedly honored by the Danish royalty for his martial arts. Of course, the stories continue to grow from there. Later Rod claims to have inherited the family art of Dai Yoshin ryu from Albert Church's former teacher. Yet, no record of this person or that style seems to exist in Japan. Even Albert Church didn't claim to study with the Yokoto family (or Yokota family, depending on the version of Rod's story) when he returned to Japan.

    Frankly, I don't believe this post belongs in Bad Budo. Albert Church, Jr. may have made some dubious claims, but I can find no evidence that he profited from them. It's not like he was going around selling bogus certificates or something.

  14. #14
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    I do not know anything about any of these characters, but I do have a question. Is this not guilt by association...?
    Since this thread is now in this forum, perhaps nothing more needs to be said, except to answer the above partial quote.

    My point was only that the Bad Budo forum is there for "questionable claims" and/or martial arts. Undoubtably, there are questions about Mr. Church, and certainly anyone with Rod in his background (foreground)? is bound to have questions.

    The late Mr. Church certainly would not be the first to have his name cleared, and that also is, or should be part of the Bad Budo Forum's job description for anyone whose warts are small, or those which have fallen off long ago.

    That was a part of the original description and use of the Bad Budo forum.
    *****

    Guy,
    When are you going to admit that you speak "some" Japanese, can read even more, and can even write it with the 'living' brush stroke[s]?

    OK, the cat is out of the bag, but I think most have figured out that you know far more than you admit here, but are making room for the occasional error. You would not be the first to say "That ain't my yob."


    Mark

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    Wow ... I lost track of this one -- it's jumped from one pot into another .... and yet into another.

    Sean,
    I didn't answer your statement correctly. You said "jujutsu shihan" and I responded about "soke." Sorry. Mr. Church received his jujutsu and judo shihan menjo from Kuniba Shogo sensei.

    if this link doesn't work, go to http://www.shindenkan.com/ and click on the "lineage" button. If you want to see the scroll, click on the "scroll" button.

    The scroll states
    SHIHAN NINTEISHO
    Arubaato Shi Chiyaachi nisei

    Anata wa einen Nippon Koryu Jujutsu/Judo wo kenkyu renma-sare[mashita]. Sono gijutsu [?] wo mitome Seishinkan [Kokusai So-]go Budo Renmei Jujutsu-bu, Judo-bu no SHIHAN wo Nintei suru.

    Showa 43 nen, [??] gatsu, 12 nichi.
    Seishinkan Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei
    Soshi KUNIBA SHOGO
    SHIHAN CERTIFICATION
    Albert C. Church, Jr.

    You have studiously researched ancient Japanese Jujutsu and Judo for many years. I recognize these [your] techniques and certify you as a SHIHAN in the Jujutsu section and Judo section of the Seishinkan International Combined Martial Ways Federation.

    12 [month illegible], 1968

    Shogo Kuniba
    President,
    Seishin Kokusai Sogo Budo Renmei
    Actually, "ninteisho" means "document of authorization,recognition, permission, acknowledgement" -- select your own favorite word. Interesting is the kanji "nin." It means to recognize as in "nin(me) suru"; and it is used in the word authorization, "nintei". Although it is very unwise do disect kanji for their etymology, it IS fun [warning: I am a "trained" professional; do not attempt this at home!]. "NIN" comprises the "word" radical, and the "patience" {as in "ninja"] kanji -- so someone will be very diligent/patient before they give their word vouching for somebody.

    M.C.,
    I *don't* speak Japanese. I studied it for 2 years at the graduate level and lived in Japan 5 years. I can definitely prove that I do not speak Japanese well, and cannot read much above the 3rd grade level without various dictionaries!!

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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