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Thread: Hand to Hand during WWII

  1. #16
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    To a good number of people the word is equivilent to racial/cultural slurs used against a number of groups.

    Jap versus Japanese is like using the N word to an African American (especially if you are not African American yourself).

    If is far from PC Chairman vs Chairperson, Sanitation Engineer vs Garbageman.

    I think its fair to ask that you behave here as you would in a crowded room. If you address people to their faces with racial slurs - you have far bigger cojons than I have.

    To be fair - I've used words that I didn't realize upset people in the past. Usually I stopped using the word but every now and then I thought the person was being silly and refused to. In this case I don't think people are being sensitive. I don't think you are a racist Mattew - just unaware that we are in a larger community.

    Originally posted by mt2k
    So I am accused of being a racist because I used the word Jap? Lasy, perhaps, but hardly a racist. I think you are a bit too sensitive, or perhaps more PC than I am.
    Matthew Temkin.

  2. #17
    MarkF Guest

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    If I thought you were a racist your post would have been deleted. I also don't take the excuse of being "Lazy" as an reason for not competing that word. You completed your other words.

    While agreeing with Doug that a period (Jap.) would have been proper, you also didn't sign your name, which smells like a troll. Trolling in itself isn't bad, but you must know that a web site which speaks of Japanese Culture would be the last place you use what is considered a slur to so many.

    So we got off to a bad start, everything is as it should be and can be forgotten.

    Welcome to the slippery roads and paths in the yesterday of your tomorrow, the E-budo Forum Wars.

    Mark

    PS: James, I knew you probably had sig editor problems, but perhaps I am getting to be too PC in my old age. I suppose I should have just edited the one post and said nothing.

  3. #18
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    I have extensive knowledge of WW2 combat systems ( from many sources, including a seven year friendship with Col. Rex Applegate) I have no hatred, nor great love for that matter, of the Japanese. I am pushing 50 and many of the men I knew while growing up fought against the Japanese in WW2. They used some pretty strong terms when describing their former enemies. The "J" word, to them, would have been almost a compliment.
    My post was geared to answer, in a small part, a question that was asked about WW2 combatives,albeit from the other side. Since I have no interest in the Japanese martial arts you can rest assured that I will post here no more.
    Matthew Temkin

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by mt2k
    My post was geared to answer, in a small part, a question that was asked about WW2 combatives,albeit from the other side. Since I have no interest in the Japanese martial arts you can rest assured that I will post here no more.
    Matthew Temkin
    I am curious about why you registered with this forums, read deep into its topics, and posted messages if you have no interest in the Japenese Martial Arts.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: For Rupert

    Originally posted by JamesF
    Rupert,

    You said:

    "Anyway, I have looked into US Army military history of the Korean War and there are many references to hand to hand combat on the front line, usually after a firefight atop a mountain and being overrun after the ammunition has run out. I am sure there must be instances to be found in other military histories. Pretty gory stuff though. Doubt you'll see a shiho-nage tenkan in there."

    Are these accounts on-line anywhere?

    Would be interesting to read.

    Thanks,

    James
    UK
    What I saw I found in a library - real books! Dunno what you can find onthe internet - although I do recall coming across medals of honour recipients and their deeds someplace. You might want to search for the Japanese American unit that fought in Europe (WWII) - that is an interesting story.

    Rupert Atkinson

  6. #21
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by mt2k
    I have extensive knowledge of WW2 combat systems ( from many sources, including a seven year friendship with Col. Rex Applegate) I have no hatred, nor great love for that matter, of the Japanese. I am pushing 50 and many of the men I knew while growing up fought against the Japanese in WW2. They used some pretty strong terms when describing their former enemies. The "J" word, to them, would have been almost a compliment.
    My post was geared to answer, in a small part, a question that was asked about WW2 combatives,albeit from the other side. Since I have no interest in the Japanese martial arts you can rest assured that I will post here no more.
    Matthew Temkin
    Most logical people certainly have a "hatred" for the Japanese of WWII and before. I have one seething against the nazis, but I do not hold that against the Germans or Polish people of today. You could have said anything you wanted to by thinking through your post and leave out the slurs you used.

    What does "Pushing fifty" have anything to do with it? I seems you carry that as a badge as if you have lived long enough to do what you please, or to say what you will in public and not be called for it. You also assumed this to be an "Americans Only" web site. It isn't.

  7. #22
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    The full text citations for Army Medals of Honor appears at http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm . USMC (and USN, attached to the USMC) Medals of Honor appear at http://www.marinemedals.com .

    BTW, these sites are great for busting phonies.

  8. #23
    MarkF Guest

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    I have those links and should have used them from the last time considering a corn-cob pipe smoking MOH SOB. It pointed it one thing, and that was that most who deserved it, deserved it because one saved others by giving one's own. I don't seem to remember the Pipe-smoker giving his own, but I do recall that he was responsible for the loss of many for no (good) reason.


    Mark

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    My mom's cousin was a Pacific Theatre Marine and one day dropped his pants to show me the scars on his rump. He informed me that at night or in heavy rain when someone arrives in a foxhole, it was the custom to poke the new arrival in the hind quarters so that you could judge their country of origin. Depending on the curse that was returned to this pointed query, you had the option of appologizing or more forceful use of your bayonet or knife.

    He said the times he received answers he did not expect, the goal was a short as possible encounter to avoid lucky counter punches or kicks. I did not get the details to these incidents despite repeated requests, probably because I was under ten.

    This man was surprized late in the war to learn that the Japanese soldiers had been told you could only become a US Marine AFTER killing your parents. Considering the cultural devotion to faimly, that was probably an effect motivational technique.
    --dave stokes

  10. #25
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    My Father was a Veteran of both Peleliu and Okinawa. While staging for the invasion of Peleliu, they were on the island of Pavuvu. Col. Chesty Puller's Brother, if I remember correctly, was killed at that time on another island. He ordered banners to be placed at Mess in large, red letters, the banners/signs stated, "Kill more Japs."

    I don't know how many Japanese my Father killed, he said to me once, "It's hard to tell at night and you are firing a machinegun into masses of them and everyone else is firing as well." But by his admission, he killed over a dozen that he knew of, which is no biggie on an island like Peleliu.

    As Sledge has pointed out [good reference Joe] in some interviews, the Japanese were despised because they would shoot stretcher bearers, Navy Corpsman and Medics. Yet, this happens in all conflicts...it is merely a moment in time.

    "Peleliu: 1944" by Harry A. Gailey is a great book, a book that when you reach the end, you wish there was more of it.

    My Dad harbored no grudge against the Japanese people after the War was over because in his words, it was over. He was saddened that the Japanese Military told Japanese living on Okinawa as well as native Okinawans that the American Marines would rape, mutilate and kill their wives and children, which caused many people to throw their children off of cliffs within sight of the Marines...and then they followed their children down to the rocks and water.

    It is a combination of all of things as well as the fact that the Japanese fought with tenacity, that adds up to the hatred for them at the time, there is much more than Pearl Harbor.

    My Father told me more than once that had it not been for the Atomic Bomb, I would have probably never been born, because they were headed for Mainland Japan.

    To me, this is a Military Matter instead of a racial and cultural matter. When I see people refer to the Japanese at that time as "Japs," I make a value judgment based on comment.

    William Fairbairn learned Jujutsu/Judo in Japan. We have alot to be thankful for then and now because of things like this. I have Japanese friends and I would no sooner refer to them or their relatives in such a manner as I would call them any other name without cause.

    The root of the use of the word "Jap" in a derogatory manner has a basis in contempt and slang back then, it was demonizing an opponent who was, in point of fact, dishonorable in combat and fierce.

    As to the original question, there were "Infiltration Units" on Peleliu as put forth by Gailey in his book. They used swords and bayonets as well as split-toed Tabi for stealth. They were feared and my Father told me stories about he and other Marines who would eat the cheese and crackers out of rations and very little else because Marines were often killed while defecating. They wanted to be constipated.

    There were also Japanese that were educated in American Universtities that could speak English very well and some of them with very little, if any, accent. Those fellows were also in Infiltration Units because they could speak English very well. At night, passwords were a must and more than one Marine was killed by friendly fire because they were shell-shocked or otherwise traumatized and just wandering around the lines in the dark, as well as those who did not remember or were made aware of the password for that area and day.

  11. #26
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    As to the original question, there were "Infiltration Units" on Peleliu as put forth by Gailey in his book.
    The "Infiltration Units" in China were called Kirikomitai [kiri < kiru= cut/kill; komi < komu = through; tai= a military unit]. Kirikomitai were "Special Assault Forces" and my teacher, Nakamura Taizaburo, was a member and "hand-to-hand combat" instructor of the Yamashita Heidan Nanpo Kirikomitai[Yamashita Group South Special Attack Force]. They would infiltrate enemy lines using only swords. He has said that [paraphrased]
    "...beyond 100 meters the Chinese were brave and maintained their rates of fire, but when we [kirikomitai] advanced within 100 meters, the Chinese would become afraid, drop weapons, and run."
    Hand-to-hand training was called "Jissen Budo" [actual combat martial arts] and consisted of sword, bayonet, and dagger techniques taught at the Toyama Military Academy.
    (Right) Sergeant Nakamura Taizaburo, (left) Sergeant Major Yoshii.
    Trained instructors would attend the academy for about one year (some accounts state 6 months) and receive a "Tokubetsu Budo Kyokan" rating [Special Martial Arts Instructor]; these instructors would then be dispatched throughout the army and teach combat skills. Sword work was generally taught to officers, bayonet to enlisted, and dagger to artillery, tank crews, and others. Essentially the dagger was the dismounted bayonet. A couple more photos at http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshink...ura_early.html

    Joe Svinth mentioned sumo. Here is a ca. 1943 photo showing Nakamura Taizaburo (5'2") as the regimental champion


    Joe is is also correct in that on many occasions human targets were used as training aids. One Japanese veteran's story states the instructor drew a chalk circle around the hearts of the victims and commanded, "This is the heart. DO NOT STRIKE THERE -- it will instantly kill your target. Strike anywhere except the heart!" I suppose they had to keep the victim alive long enough for everybody to experience stabbing a living human being.

    Not all instruction was delivered via a human target. Straw matting (when available) was used, and when not available, slender birch switches were tied together to cut through.

    Also, just as not all SS were murderers (I'll catch hell for this); likewise, not all graduates of the Toyama Academy were murderers. Although many officers new to China had to practice on a living body, not all did so.

    [Note regarding my SS comment: There is a major difference between the Allgemein SS and the Waffen-SS although most people are not aware of the difference. The Allgemein [General] SS staffed the Gestapo, death camps, extermination groups who "mopped-up" after the W-SS and other front-line units; they were members of the Nazi Party -- real ideologues. The Waffen [Military Arm] SS were a hard-core bunch of combat soldiers -- and surprisingly, few were members of the Nazi Party [well, someone like Sepp Dietrich, commander of the 1st Division "Leibstandart SS Adolf Hitler", was a Party member]. Most enlisted into the W-SS because the W-SS was elite (originally recruits limited to between 18-20 with a minimum height of 6 ft; later reduced to 5'10"; then later 5'7" for communications and combat engineers.]

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  12. #27
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    First of all, thanks for the wonderful insight and thoughtful addition to this thread which has belched in places.

    Originally posted by ghp
    Joe is is also correct in that on many occasions human targets were used as training aids. One Japanese veteran's story states the instructor drew a chalk circle around the hearts of the victims and commanded, "This is the heart. DO NOT STRIKE THERE -- it will instantly kill your target. Strike anywhere except the heart!" I suppose they had to keep the victim alive long enough for everybody to experience stabbing a living human being.
    You can read a little bit more about this as a psychological training aid on Grossman's website. I don't agree with Grossman on many issues, gun control, for example*, but this portion of his site is good.

    From Grossman's website:
    "The Japanese were masters at using classical conditioning with their soldiers. Early in World War II, Chinese prisoners were placed in a ditch on their knees with their hands bound behind them. And one by one, a select few Japanese soldiers would go into the ditch and bayonet "their" prisoner to death..."
    Read the rest of the article here.

    Also, just as not all SS were murderers (I'll catch hell for this); likewise, not all graduates of the Toyama Academy were murderers. Although many officers new to China had to practice on a living body, not all did so.
    Revisionism can be just as disgusting as the atrocities are. You're being honest and you should not catch hell for that, only praise.

    [Note regarding my SS comment: There is a major difference between the Allgemein SS and the Waffen-SS although most people are not aware of the difference. The Allgemein [General] SS staffed the Gestapo, death camps, extermination groups who "mopped-up" after the W-SS and other front-line units; they were members of the Nazi Party -- real ideologues...
    The execution units were generally known as Einsatzgruppen, or "Special Action Groups." A rather unique euphemism...

    I don't know the point of demarcation between the two, when one became the other. And it really does not matter at this point, as your point is well made and I generally agree with it.

    The Japanese were responsible for atrocities on the scale of the Germans, they just had less vocal victims in the Chinese. That's not said to be a slap to the victims of the Nazis, it's just the truth. If you don't yell when someone hits you, and they hit you under the cloak of darkness, no one might ever know.

    In this arena, of Martial Arts, the Krauts will always get the ¤¤¤¤-end of the stick because they don't have a Martial Art for people to defend. If there was Bavarian Ryu, perhaps people would be more forgiving. And, in a way, if everyone is honest, Japanese Martial Arts can be a route to healing. You can't hate people forever...

    And yes, I'm part "Kraut."

    Of the more vocal victims, we see this in "The Rape of Nanking."

    You can read about that here.

    Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered. THE SAVAGERY OF THE KILLING WAS AS APPALLING AS ITS SCALE.

    Thousands of victims were beheaded, burned, bayoneted, buried alive, or disemboweled. To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.
    Click here.

    A rather weak rebuttal can be found here...

    Iris Chang's "Rape of Nanking" is a book that fails to heal but rather sears all efforts for good international relations because it prioritizes passion at the cost of basic historical facts. We cannot ignore the book's inability and refusal, as witnessed by the usage of numerous doctored photos, to differentiate between fact and war-time propaganda.
    Click here.

    There is a failure to heal because the Japanese won't owe up to what they did.

    When The Enola Gay was put on display, or parts of her, at The Smithsonian, a huge cry went up from the Japanese Government. I don't even know if she was ever put up for display, ultimately, but this did happen. Very sad. The Military Leadership brought that on themselves and they have never owed up to their brutality in World War Two. But they sure complain when the Fat Man is mentioned.

    I'm not saying all of this to piss people off, I'm saying it in this way, "Kill your idols."

    *I don't agree that guns kill people or cause people to kill people anymore than I believe videogames cause people to kill people or cause kids to eat rocks lying on the ground because they played Pac-Man too much.

  13. #28
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    Don,

    Thank you very much for the cogent response! I will look at Grossman's site tomorrow.

    "The Japanese were masters at using classical conditioning with their soldiers. Early in World War II, Chinese prisoners were placed in a ditch on their knees with their hands bound behind them. And one by one, a select few Japanese soldiers would go into the ditch and bayonet "their" prisoner to death..."

    I'm not saying all of this to [upset] people ..., I'm saying it in this way, "Kill your idols."
    Very good points. I have a 3-ring binder entitled "Satsujin-Ken" [the murdering sword] that has photos of decapitations as well as the written reminisces of two soldiers who taught "killing with a single stroke" classes to officers newly arrived to China. I require my new blackbelts go through this booklet -- not because it is gruesome and I like it [which I don't] -- but to "kill your idols" as you so eloquently suggest [and is also echoed in the zen story "when you see the Buddha, kill him"]. I firmly believe that if we continue to incorporate revisionist thinking with "neo-bushido dreaming," and we ignore the evil that has historically occured, there is then the possibility of that evil again happening. However, we also must be aware of the dissemination of "corrupt bushido" in the 1930s, the militarization of Japanese thought, etc -- that is not occuring in the Japan of today.

    I don't know the point of demarcation between the two, when one became the other....
    Basically, Allgemein SS wore black uniforms and Waffen-SS wore field-grey; but judging from your other posts, you are well-read and probably knew that -- you were only asking a retorical question. The "Allgemein SS v. Waffen-SS" is not a hard-and-fast rule regarding atrocity capability, mind, as atrocities also happened in the Waffen-SS [mostly in partisan/guerrilla warfare]. But neither is the "SS v. Allies" a clear demarcation.

    Most people know about the Malmedy Massacre on 17 December 1944 when elements of LTC. Jochim Peiper's 1st W-SS Division (Leibstandart Adolf Hitler)killed US prisoners of war. However, very few people mention the Dachau Murder of April 1945 when the US Army 34th Infantry Division summarily executed 25 Waffen SS soldiers [they were from the officer academy "next door" and had been sent over to surrender Dachau because the death camp staff and guards had run away]. The US soldiers escorted away 4 officers [one with a red cross armband and white flag] and executed them in a railway car ... 17 others were lined up against the wall and machine-gunned. http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau...ersKilled.html Previous to this action, the 56th Division had killed 100 German POWs in Italy.

    The difference to me? The actions during the "Battle of the Bulge" were committed "hot," during the extremis of combat; the actions at Dachau were performed "cold," post-hostilities. Both episodes were wrong -- but whereas disgust was thrown at all Waffen SS [heck, "all Germans"], Gen. George Patton dismissed the actions of the US Soldiers and quipped "they should be given a damn medal."

    The Japanese were responsible for atrocities on the scale of the Germans,...
    And let's not forget "Uncle Joe" Stalin who murdered more people than did Hitler. Uncle Joe, though, had the foresight to kill "equally" without prejudice against one race.

    I am not a nazi apologist -- which could be inferred from my "equal" treatment of the Waffen SS and US 45th Division; however, wrong is wrong, regardless if it was caused in 1940 [nazi death camps], December 1944 [Malmedy], April 1945 [US 45th Div at Dachau], or March 1968 [My Lai].

    More about the Malmedy Trial
    ...used the following methods to obtain confessions: Beatings and brutal kickings. Knocking out teeth and breaking jaws. Mock trials. Solitary confinement. Posturing as priests. Very limited rations. Spiritual deprivation....
    No, the quote describes what US guards did to German prisoners awaiting trial.


    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  14. #29
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    Default HtoH in WWII

    Re: Joseph Svinth's notes about the 442nd Japanese American unit. I interviewed several vets in the course of my former career as a local Hawaii journalist...

    When the unit entered Belvedere and the town adjacent to it in Eastern France, they had to shoot out the Germans from house to house and room to room. Even at that, fighting techniques by and large was basically the 442nd and the Germans shooting each other at close range and throwing hand grenades through holes in the walls. No one wanted to wrestle down someone while another enemy soldier might be lurking around the corner with a gun. Better to just lob a grenade or potato masher at each other.

    One of the best weapons, as Svinth says, was the US Army's 105 mm field artillery. The 442nd's 522nd field artillery unit won a lot of accuracy awards before it entered combat, and a lot of times, the infantry simply had to mop up the damage the 522nd did to German units. Air bursts led to some pretty appalling scenes of carnage, as one vet described to me. Better to blast them with artillery than go hand-to-hand fighting. That's probably a US Army motto (note Afghanistan and Desert Storm). They had no love for the SS, but many of the veterans expressed a grudging admiration for the discipline, professionalism, tenacity and quality equipment of the average German footsoldier.

    Bravery cut across race lines in the 442nd. The nisei soldiers loved Maj. John Johnson, who was a star prep athlete in Hawaii and "one of them," a Caucasian who grew up alongside them. He died stepping on a field mine.

    The Korean American, Sgt. Yong Oak Kim, became a model of stoic bravery. He had a habit of taking off his helmet and wearing a felt cap. So many soldiers began to imitate him out of admiration that the officers ordered Kim to wear his helmet to keep head injuries down.

    One officer of the 100th Batallion, 442nd, Capt. James Lovell, seemed like a real-life John Wayne to me, as the veterans described him. He was tall, rangy and a former football coach. He never left any of his wounded behind, often carrying the wounded on his back under enemy fire, getting wounded himself in the process.

    He finally went down with several wounds when the 100th was ordered to attack Cassino. The unit made it nearly to the top but was forced to retreat because no other allied unit was able to cross the Rapido River and offer relief support. When the 100th left the mountain, they found that Lovell had been badly wounded and left behind. Without any orders, soldiers went back to Cassino and retrieved him, as he had done for so many soldiers under his command. He survived the war and lived until just a few years ago.

    Lots of these stories are documented in a couple of books from small publishers. It's a great story of one of the most decorated units in the history of the US Army; the unit that engaged in "one of the ten most signficant land battles in the history of the US Army"; according to a US Army statement (The Battle of the Lost Batallion).

    When you talk to these aging veterans, most of them don't come out and talk about those episodes of bravery. They rather first recount to me funny incidents, only touching upon those "war stories" when it gets late and they get thoughtful and the memories begin to flood their minds. For the most part, they are humble men, who only recently began to tell their own children and the public what they did in their youth.

    Once, I was going through a book and found a friend's father listed as having won a bronze star, purple heart, and other awards. I pointed it out to my friend, a fellow writer, and she said, "Geeez! All my dad ever told me about the war was that he drove a jeep!"

    Bravery knows no skin color.

    Wayne Muromoto

  15. #30
    MarkF Guest

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    Also, just as not all SS were murderers (I'll catch hell for this); likewise, not all graduates of the Toyama Academy were murderers. Although many officers new to China had to practice on a living body, not all did so.
    You won't catch hell from me. I said something similar and had to retract it to stop the amazing number of people who felt sorry for those nazis (I said, in one of a rather long list of sentences: "Not all nazis were inherently bad people)." Being Jewish didn't help, but the discussion was about Nanjing as I recall.

    But people didn't understand the context. Ask me if the all nazis were bad people and I would probably do the Jewish thing and answer a question with a question.

    The replies were amazing, even to the point of finding some agreement that the Holocaust was overstated. Murderers aren't always bad people, they just committed acts in which their lives will be taken, perhaps justifiably, but not nearly as many who got away with it.

    I even had an inlaw who was a member of the nazi party at that time. He was only a coward, as he turned away when my cousin was being beaten into a bloody pulp by the woman he had married (she, my cousin, was his daughter) making himself nearly as bad as the one beating on my cousin, perhaps worse. "She fell down" became a common mark in her chart at the hospital where she was inevitably taken, repeatedly. My father, who barely escaped with his skin, and my mother took her in when she ran away, but she still argued that "it is all my fault" and went back. Of course, he, the stepfather only collected Hitler postage stamps (I still have the collection) and carried back with him millions of worthless Hitler deutch marks (I still have those, too), but he wasn't an "inherently bad person." No, he most likely didn't kill anyone (as I said, he was a coward), but he never told the doctors or the authorities the truth, either, so separating the SS (Waffen SS) into good and bad is a particularly difficult thing to do, so I find myself not giving a ¤¤¤¤ that some were not "bad people." They were nazis.


    Mark

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