Which Are The Current Gendai Budo Arts??

[RobNyc]

I was curious to know which are the Gendai Budo Arts currently?

Post them & would you study them? why or why not?

[Mike Mules]

Originally posted by RobNyc


Aikido is derived from Daito-ryu but Ueshiba took out the Footwork Daito-ryu Sokaku's version had.

Out of interest, what is your source for this statement? Also, could you expand on what footwork has been removed?

Yours in anticipation,

[RobNyc]

cant' give any statements on footwork
just read ueshiba took out all the footwork.
i'll try to look again and see if i find anything

[Chuck Clark]

Something that I've learned over the years...

Don't believe everything you read in a book. Do more research and find as many views as possible about the subject.

Regards,

[RobNyc]

i didn't read it on a book.

[Jerry Johnson]

I have been reading allot of the Aikido newsgroups and I have come across many different view points of what is and isn't Aikido in relation to Daito Ryu. I would bet Sturgeon’s Law is in effect ( 99% of everything your read, write and hear is BS) concerning the composition of Aikido. This is based on the vast number of debates and arguments I have read in various Aikido newsgroups.


I say this is because there seem to be two schools of thought with many Aikidoka in general. One is acceptance of Daito Ryu. That Daito Ryu is Aikido roots, and exploring Daito Ryu is beneficial. The other is resistance to Daito Ryu. That Daito Ryu had little influence and exploring Daito Ryu is of little or no interest as there is no benefit. This polarity generates heated debates, therefore, I can see Sturgeon’s Law come into play. I have read some debates that produce allot of misinformation.

I am not expert in either art, but some basic research from solid sources, reasonable knowledge of Japanese martial arts, and common sense ( avoiding the romanticism of the arts ) can easily indicate what information is affected by Sturgeon’s Law.

With all due respect, based on my limited understanding ( not being an expert) and basic understanding of the two arts via research, I would have to say that in some style's of Aikido foot work may have been altered from the original Aikido.

It is plausible, that the founder never changed the Daito Ryu technically, as most of us think of as change. What we is as technical change is adaptation to a modern world. And the progression of skill like any other martial artist does when they train over a life time. I would agree the two arts are different in approach, application, and philosophy. I am sure many others differences in the abstract exists. Aikido is a modern adaptation of a traditional art. But technically it's structure is only portion of Daito Ryu curriculum.

My understanding is Ueshiba studied under Takeda for a shorter period of time then other Daito Ryu 'kas such a Hisa Takuma who received a Menkyo Kiadan (sp). Ueshiba received an introductory teaching rank and then taught Daito Ryu under the supervision of Takeda for many years until Ueshiba split with his teacher for reasons that are still being debated.

Therefore, I would conclude in my limited scope that foot work deletion is more likely found in the branches of Aikido, then in Aikido itself. Ueshiba's foot work ( seen on tapes ) is a result of technical progression based on the fundamentals of the Daito Ryu he was taught. And that what also seems to be change in footwork is the result of Ueshiba's build and body type. No one does anything exactly like another, or looks the same. i.e. note the differences in movement and application between two Judoka or Karateka of different body frames and skill levels in application and performance. The last point, something already discussed here in general terms, is that maybe that Takeda being a traditional martial artist and such mentality didn't teach Ueshiba everything or precisely. This is a factor because of the Daito Ryu being popular, it is readily available on video tape, thus, comparisons can be made and such conclusions are possible.

[Budoka 34]

I believe OSensei also studied several styles of Ken-Jitsu as well as the Chinese arts of Ba-Gua(Pa-Kua)and Chi-Kung(Chi-Gung).
Anyone know more about this?

[RobNyc]

I read Ueshiba studied with Takeda like for 20yrs

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
My understanding is Ueshiba studied under Takeda for a shorter period of time then other Daito Ryu 'kas such a Hisa Takuma who received a Menkyo Kiadan (sp). Ueshiba received an introductory teaching rank and then taught Daito Ryu under the supervision of Takeda for many years until Ueshiba split with his teacher for reasons that are still being debated.

Who studied for how long is tricky where Takeda is concerned. Takeda never had a dojo of his own, he'd travel around and teach mostly seminar style. People might train with him (for example) for ten years, but the actual time they spent training with him during those ten years may actually have been quite short.

Ueshiba actually lived with Takeda for two years. If you look at the actual amount of time spent physically training with Takeda it's possible that Ueshiba had more than anybody else, certainly more, IMO, than Takuma had. Kodo Horikawa and Yukiyoshi Sagawa would be the other competitors for time in, but it's really anybody's guess at this point. Of course, whether or not that means anything is another issue...

Best,

Chris

[MarkF]

Who studied for how long is tricky where Takeda is concerned. Takeda never had a dojo of his own, he'd travel around and teach mostly seminar style. People might train with him (for example) for ten years, but the actual time they spent training with him during those ten years may actually have been quite short.

Isn't it even more true today? If I took my thirty-nine years and rearranged it according to days and hours, it would probably be a lot less, too.

When on the road, Takeda charged per technique.

I thought Takeda did have a dojo at one time. BTW, If you are going to use that static year of 1868 as a time line, DR AJJ is actually gendai. In that year, Takeda Sokaku would have been eight or nine, depending on what part of the year.

In fact, there are many koryu which are actually gendai, using that as the end of one and the beginning of another, so the whole koryu/gendai timeline is pretty much invalid. IOW, it doesn't matter.


Mark

[RobNyc]

In A Way DR AJJ is Koryu Bujutsu in the other hand is also Gendai.

But the founder of DR AJJ is
Shinra Saburo Minamoto Yoshimitsu (1056-1127)

But they also put Sokaku as the founder but he wasn't really the founder.
Sokaku (Sogaku?) Takeda (1853-1943)

DR AJJ Kodokai*
Kodo Horikawa (1894-1980)

DR AJJ Roppokai*
Seigo Okamoto (1925-)

DR AJJ Sagawa (less known)
Yuikiyoshi Sagawa (1902-?)

DR AJJ Takumakai*
Takuma Hisa (1896-1980)

DR AJJ Bokuyokan
YONEZAWA, KATSUMI
•1937–1999


This is but one art. It might be called a dozen different names, but it is the same art derived from the great leaders of the Minamoto and Aizu clans over 1200 years of evolution. All the followers or students of these different branches are not the followers or students of the current leaders or teachers, but the followers of historical traditions established by the various families who took part in the refinement and continuity of this great Japanese fighting system we generalize as " Daito - Ryu Aiki Bujutsu "..
Never forget that a branch ( call it what you chose !) is just that : "A BRANCH ", never the " TREE " . And all the different branches, regardless of who heads them, are not DAITO-RYU , but merely a temporary segment of practitioners who are teaching a part of the 1200-year old art of the Minamoto and Aizu fighting system .
Nobody ( regardless of how talented they are ) can master all the different techniques of Daito-Ryu ! Some master certain aspects, others master other segments, and they add their own signatures and pass it on to their followers . It has been like that for 1200 years

Saigo Ha Takeda-Ryu (daito-Ryu)

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by MarkF


Isn't it even more true today? If I took my thirty-nine years and rearranged it according to days and hours, it would probably be a lot less, too.

But not like with Takeda. For example, I might go to a dojo three times a week and train with a certain instructor. In a year I might have (roughly) 150 actual contacts with that instructor. In contrast, the number of times that a person would have actual contact with Takeda would have been far less - maybe 10 times, maybe less (probably less). Ueshiba spent time actually living with Takeda, so he got an unusual amount of exposure - Sagawa also spent about the same amount of time living with Takeda, but I get the impression that he didn't spend all that time training (although he later traveled with Takeda quite a bit).

When on the road, Takeda charged per technique.

On the road he mostly taught seminar style. The usual pattern would be that he would come into town and then send his son or one of his students around looking for people interested in a one or two day seminar. Apparently the seminars were quite expensive and he'd take only people wealthy enough to pay the fees, or people of some importance (for the status, I assume). He seems to have taught at a lot of police departments.

I thought Takeda did have a dojo at one time. BTW, If you are going to use that static year of 1868 as a time line, DR AJJ is actually gendai. In that year, Takeda Sokaku would have been eight or nine, depending on what part of the year.

Although some people built dojo for him to teach in AFAIK he never had a dojo of his own. The status of Daito-ryu as a koryu is fairly fuzzy. Strictly speaking it would probably be classed as a gendai budo, but mostly it seems to have a kind of quasi-koryu status in Japan.

Best,

Chris

[RobNyc]

Cool.

This stuff is interesting,
you guys know what you are talking about at least

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by RobNyc
In A Way DR AJJ is Koryu Bujutsu in the other hand is also Gendai.

But the founder of DR AJJ is
Shinra Saburo Minamoto Yoshimitsu (1056-1127)

But they also put Sokaku as the founder but he wasn't really the founder.
Sokaku (Sogaku?) Takeda (1853-1943)

Takeda is usually called the "reviver" of Daito-ryu. However, the historical lineage of Daito-ryu is almost completely unproven, and whether there's any truth to it or not is really anybody's guess.

Takeda certainly did these things:

1) Renamed the art.
2) Reorganized the art.
3) Added things from other arts/mixed a number of different arts.

In my book that's enough to call him a "founder", but YMMV.

This is but one art. It might be called a dozen different names, but it is the same art derived from the great leaders of the Minamoto and Aizu clans over 1200 years of evolution.

The oldest recognized koryu in Japan are around 500 years old. Daito-ryu has roots in older arts, but so does Judo or, for that matter, Aikido.

Saigo Ha Takeda-Ryu (daito-Ryu)

I'd take a look at:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000013.html

and

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...&threadid=1856

If I were you.

Best,

Chris

[RobNyc]

Good Info there.

Are you a AJJ practitioner?