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Thread: Sanchin and Shime

  1. #1
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    Red face Sanchin and Shime

    Does the shime performed during the kata Sanchin cause any damage to your body?

    I'm not referring to a bad performed Shime...

    I practice Okinawan Goju-Ryu from IOGKF (Chojun Miyagi, An'Ichi Miyagi, Morio Higaonna lineage...)

    Filipe Magalhães
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  2. #2
    MarkF Guest

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    No comment on the web site except that it is pretty, but it is content which brings me back to a web site.

    Concerning Hwa Rang Do, here is a sample thread written on the subject. If you wish to read more, do a search in the Bad Budo forum.

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...ht=hwa+rang+do

    Mark

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    Hi,

    The question you ask, has been asked many times. Bad shime is surely a bad thing but does that make good shime a good thing? Mmm, in my humble opinion: yes. But I’m biased. Why would you think Shime is a bad thing? As far as I know there are no records of people being injured by the use of good shime. If there is any information I’d sure like to get my hands on it.
    Greetings,
    Pier Nauta

    Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate-do

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    I'm not thinking it's a bad thing...

    I love to make Sanchin and to be tested...

    But I read some articles that spoke about increased blood pressure, and breath sustening... But I'm still thinking it was referring to the possible harm that a bad Sanchin could cause to you...

    Well.... If you have something to say about this or some information it would be fine to read it!
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

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    But I read some articles that spoke about increased blood pressure, and breath sustening... But I'm still thinking it was referring to the possible harm that a bad Sanchin could cause to you...
    Filipe, Mark Bishop in his book on Okinawan Karate makes the statement that Goju-ryu is bad for your health, due to the practice of Sanchin. He also mentions high blood pressure and obesity with older practitioners. Most of his comments on Goju and Sanchin are based on hearsay, and he provides no real evidence. I’m not saying he doesn’t know what he is talking about, I respect the man as karateka and for all the work he has done, but the opinion from someone with a medical background would be preferable regarding this subject. We do have to be careful with making statements about health issues, without a medical background or knowing other variables in the mentioned examples. For all we know the mentioned high blood pressure was the result of genetics or their lifestyles. The people Bishop quotes are practitioners of other styles. We do not know of any possible politicized arguments.

    Now for the shime part. Punching and kicking are not a part of Shime in the IOGKF curriculum, at least I’ve never heard of it and have never seen people being kicked or punched. This form of Shime does exist in Euchi Ryu. The goal of Shime isn’t ‘hardening’ the body, but providing a feedback mechanism for the person who is doing Sanchin so he can perform it better. As for the slapping it is done in a very regulated fashion. It is done on certain parts of the body that can ‘take a lot’ and it is adjusted to the person’s level of skill. In my opinion teaching someone incorrectly, both Sanchin and Shime, is more dangerous. And most likely the source of the hearsay about the health issues.

    Could you tell us the names of the authors and the titles of the articles you’ve read?
    Greetings,
    Pier Nauta

    Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate-do

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    Shime is good. Shime I think is eventually necessary to progress in your Sanchin training. But heck what do I know this is just my opinion. I’m just some old fart from Illinois.

    There are times that Sanchin becomes difficult for me. I have bad days where I get the upper body just right and the lower body goes to hell. When I fix my feet and legs I lose tension in the upper body. It reminds of a dog chasing his tail. The dog never quite catches it. Shime helps the dog catch his tail.

    Shime should help a practitioner perform at a higher level of correctness than he could perform alone. The shime when applied are just touches or presses. The light contact when applied is all that is necessary to remind the body to correct itself. Once someone begins to practice the iron body aspect Sanchin shime still starts with a touch. The touch insures that the muscle is tight before heavier contact is applied. My teacher used to gives us what we called okinawian tattoos across the top of our shoulders. This is where he would slap us so hard it left his hand prints on our shoulders. Even this started with touch and touch with a downward stroking motion which reminded me to relax and ‘roll’ the shoulders down. The goal is always to help build someone never to catch someone off guard and break them. If you want to break someone’s Sanchin just blast them in the face and break their nose, that will probably do it and this proves nothing.

    There is a basis for the idea of increasing the body’s blood pressure. Popular opinion is that is not healthy and I agree. There is some debate if this can still be performed by young people and discontinued once the karate-ka gets older or if the practice should be discontinued all together. The idea as I understand it is that you breath in a manner which over oxygenates the blood. You raise the blood pressures to increase the rate that the over oxygenated blood feeds the muscles by using the rise in blood pressure to send the blood to the capillaries quicker. All the while you are working the muscles with isometric tension in Sanchin. Was used as a method to build strength. There was a time I did this but I stopped. The key is not to forcibly restrict your breathing. For us white guys, if we start turning red this is the warning sign. I am not a doctor so I can’t speak about the blood pressure thing with any real knowledge. IMO there are many ways to build muscle strength that do not put a negative strain on the body I don’t see the sense in messing with your pulmonary system in a way that can hurt you. I used to do this 15 years ago and I now have hypertension and take medicine. Is this from Sanchin or genetics or that fact that I am addicted to salt on my food, I don’t know. My guess is it is genetic.

    I hope this adds something to the discussion and I pray I have somewhat made sense.
    Ed Boyd

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    Sorry Garbach.

    Didn't mean to be redundant in covering some of the same things you wrote about. I was writing my post while you had made your post and know you cover some of these things.
    Ed Boyd

  8. #8
    tote Guest

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    "He also mentions high blood pressure and obesity with older practitioners."

    Eh? So now karate can make you fat?

    How can sanchin, which I understand is basically a breathing excercise, cause obesity?

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    Firstly, I am a GoJu stylist, so understand that I am just repeating what others have said.

    While living in Okinawa, I heard the anti sanchin mentionings from a few sources,ie, mostly Shorin schools such as Zenpo Shimabukuro's folks and a few others. On one of my frequent visits to his dojo, one of his students asked me what style I practiced. When I said GoJu, he said, "that explains the big sides." Not being fat, but not skinny like he was, I asked what he meant. He said that GoJu made for portly practitioners and that you dont see many old GoJu masters as opposed to the old Shorin masters on the island.

    Now, Eizo Shimabuku no relation to Zenpo, from another Shorin org., teaches Sanchin at shodan level, as opposed to our using it as a base.

    The practice of Sanchin is good for you, albeit often done improperly.

    Shime, is essential, albeit often done by those who dont have enough knowledge of it, especially at some tournaments during kata competition.

    Improper posture and guttural breathing are often the culprit, in cases of sanchin causing harm.
    Steven L. Malanoski

  10. #10
    Michael Clarke Guest

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    Just an observation.
    You don't want to give too much weight to what one Okinawan karate teacher says about another. Having trained there a number of times, I know that they are just as likely to tell forigners 'stories' as the truth. Many Okinawan believe we will never 'get it' anyway, when it comes to karate, so, when I hear shorin-ryu teachers tell people that you never see an old goju practitioner, I'm wondering why I have known, and still know so many ?
    Like every other form of training, it's how you do it that counts, today most people simply follow the guy at the head of the company (Whoops! I mean association). They remain followers all their lives, and never once think of taking personal responsibility for their own karatedo. This is also how many company bosses (Whoops, I mean Association Chief instructors) like it. It keeps them employed.
    The tradition of traditional martial arts, is to learn first, accept responsibility second, and make the transition from your situation as a novice to someone who has grasped a new reality.
    Shu, Ha, Ri.
    Training in the traditional methods of Goju-ryu will not shorten your life. Nore will training in Shorin-ryu lengthen it. Training in stupid ways (regardless of style) will do you harm (maybe only years later), where as training with common sense will only inhance your health and life in general.
    Just my opinion of course.
    Train with good sense, not just the guy with the most students.
    Mike Clarke.

  11. #11
    shugyosha Guest

    Default sanchin

    it would be good to have the opinion about sanchin from a doctor

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    Default Gee, I feel stupid

    OK, someone here (and I guess I'm elected) has to ask the question; What is shime?

    I am a Japanese Goju Ryu practitioner (3rd kyu) and sanchin is taught as one of our core kata.

    I may be aware of what shime is by a different name, but untl I'm sure, I don't want to make a total ass of myself by commenting (like that has ever stopped me before!)
    Ron Rompen
    Goju Ryu
    Kitchener, Ont

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    Default Re: sanchin

    Originally posted by shugyosha
    it would be good to have the opinion about sanchin from a doctor
    Yeah like anyone would listen anyway. I've posted the info before, but everyone just ignored it like I was talking out of my arse!

    I am a 4th year medical student (will be an MD next year), with 8 years of Level I Trauma experience, a formerly nationally certified Paramedic, and USAF medic. My bro is an Orthopedic Spine Surgeon, and we often talk about Sanchin and its effects with our sensei.

    Of course causing vascular tension by repeatedly forcefully exhaling is bad for you (it's called a "valsalva maneuver"). It elicits a vaso-vagal response and the blood pressure increases rapidly. If you are old with cardiovascular disease (or have a familial history of coronary disease or atherosclerosis), the increased pressure in your blood vessels can "throw" a clot, or other "debris" in your vessels and cause a stroke.

    In Matsumura Seito we do Shorinji Sanchin, which uses natural breathing. A lot of Sanchin performed by Uechi Ryu (Pangai Noon) practitioners and Morio Higaonna's Goju students is also very safe and beneficial to you. I have seen some silly Sanchin being practiced by some Goju Ryu cats, that looked very not good: aesthetically and health-wise.

    IMHO.
    Bryan Cyr (pronounced "SEER")

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    Hello Bryan:
    Good luck with your medical studies. I am a pediatrician (MD class of '91).

    First: a vaso-vagal response will cause a drop in heart rate and blood presssure (a classic faint)- also no good for someone with cardiovascular disease. I suppose the heart rate and BP will shoot up after the event- the rapid changes are also no good.

    The real problem as might relate to Sanchin can be thought of in the same way as obstructive sleep apnea. (Note: boring physiological stuff about to follow) Repeatedly forcing air against a closed glottis (Valsalva maneuver) will increase intrathoracic pressure and decrease systemic venous return to the right heart and lungs. That combined with oxygen deprivation in sleep apnea over a period of time can cause pulmonary hypertension and heart failure. I've seen a few cases of this, even in a child with sleep apnea.

    Now, I don't know anything about Sanchin, since I do not practice an Okinawan style, but I suppose if it is performed the wrong way over a long period of time, it might produce the same adverse results. Whether or not Sanchin is in fact harmful I can't really say, but in theory it could be if practiced incorectly.
    Jerry Lane

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    originally posted by tote:
    Eh? So now karate can make you fat? How can sanchin, which I understand is basically a breathing excercise, cause obesity?
    I don’t see how it could, but just like Mike said, there are a lot of stories out there portrayed as truth. Perhaps the people with a medical background could shed some light on this matter?
    originally posted by Mike Clarke:
    Training in stupid ways (regardless of style) will do you harm (maybe only years later), where as training with common sense will only inhance your health and life in general.
    An important issue is mentioned by several people, the way you train changes when you get older. And so it should. As with every other aspect of training, once age sets in your body won’t be able to do everything it once could. It’s unfortunate but bodies get weaker after a certain age, even if one continues to train steadily. Training helps you to remain healthy to a certain extent and slow down the aging process, but can never stop the decline completely. It is therefore in my opinion necessary to adjust the training intensity, to ones specific needs. Perhaps it is also necessary to perform Sanchin in another way, once one gets older. Always keeping in mind Mike’s arguments that training should be done with good sense.

    The medical information provided, is very useful. Thanks guys!
    Greetings,
    Pier Nauta

    Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate-do

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