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Thread: Sanchin and Shime

  1. #16
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    I don't think correct training in Sanchin kata is dangerous as long as the practitioner does not hold his/her breath. I think that when you are told to place the tip of your tongue against the roof of the mouth and to make the breathing audible it is actually to ensure that the glottis is not closed and so the valsalva manoeuvre is avoided.
    It is instructive to be aware of Bill Starr's comments on page 5 of his excellent work The Strongest Shall Survive (1978, but republished recently I think) where he discusses the dangers of the valsalva manoeuvre in relation to performing a maximum lift.
    Yours,
    Harry Cook

  2. #17
    jafwwjd Guest

    Default Good or Bad Sanchin??

    tatsu and j-lane,

    You seem to have some good medical information regarding Sanchin. Do either of you know of any scientific studies specifically aimed at practitioners of Sanchin?

    Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan MA does claim that Goju is unsafe, but as someone wrote earlier, those particular statements were not scientifically verified.

    I would be extremely interested (as a Goju practitioner) to know if there exists a statistically significant, well-controlled, scientific study of properly-performed Sanchin and its specific effects on the health of its practitioners.

    Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.

  3. #18
    shugyosha Guest

    Default sanchin and health

    thanks tatsu for the information

    i join your point of view.
    i remember the story of bodidharma, he went from madras to shao lin
    then saw all the monk weak and falling asleep during meditation
    then he, learn them how to direct ki (qi) in a particular point of the body to reinforce their strengh
    ken zen ichinyo was born
    but there after, some built to much physical strengh and learn bad qi training, i think by extension this is the result of
    hard sanchin, and soft sanchin and only the second is healthy

    i have seen and read, in general, in martial art and life
    softness overcome hardeness at the and, so training hardeness too much and you will pay the price

  4. #19
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    Sanchin Breathing: Are you hurting yourself?

    The following post on the "CyberDojo" represents a popular concern that martial artists have regarding the practice (or I should say incorrect practice) of the Sanchin kata. Bill Glasheen then presents his views on the subject. GEM


    It has long been known that dynamic tension katas were of questionable value, despite being strongly supported by those who have been taught to do them. Just as hypertension is damaging to the body over a long period of time, such artificial spiking of the vascular,cranial, and pulmonary pressures is NOT good for you and will do some damage, especially if you happen to have a predisposition to hypertension, peripheral vascular disease, or congenital vascular abnormalities (A-V malformations, aneurysms, etc). There are benefits to breathing control, but it appears physiologically that sanchin hard ibuki breathing should go the way of knuckle toughening, knuckle pushups, and straight leg situps- DON"T DO IT. If you want to work on muscular dynamics, use weight training with proper breathing control, including kata with weights for resistive exercise and balance control. For breath control and focus, it woudld be safer to use taichi style soft breathing and concentrate on centering, rather than using the extreme isometric contraaction of sanchin style forms. It is possible to focus on muscular dynamics without doing the damage that such isometric contraction produces. There are adverse effects to the heart (dysrhythmias) Lungs (increased pulmonary pressure), kidneys (transient hypertension),eyes (increased intraocular pressure). Do small amount of damafge for long enough, and the body can no longer repair itself. . Taichi has been shown to have positive health benefits, where sanchin style isometric contraction does not. Just a thought, for those who insist on doing the kata "full bore", the body is a wonderful machine, and will adapt to most abuse, however, there are limits, and sanchin goes beyond those limits, just like straight leg situps, knuckle pushups, and traditional hand toughening. Just because Joe Blow did it and survived, doen't make it good for you. Everyone who does knuckle toughening develops some degree of arthritis. Everyone who does isometrics does some degree of barometric damage to various organs, everyone who smokes does some damage to their lungs and heart. Do what you wish, but it is a bit like Russian Roulette, des neh? Osu

    Wild Bill The Tuchuk (Khalizek of the Kur Clan) aka William H. Johnson, RN Univ of Va,Cardiac Cath Lab, Box 438-24,Charlottesville, VA 22908 whj5k@galen.med.virginia.edu


    I find the previous note facinating in that it makes perfect sense, and yet in its eloquence and clarity, it demonstrates what I view as a misunderstanding in how Sanchin should be practiced. I think this gentleman is accurately describing Sanchin as he has seen it performed and as he was taught how to do it.

    My qualifications: A doctorate in biomedical engineering with an emphasis in systems physiology. A dissertation on rhythms in cardiopulmonary systems, which includes quantification of how respiration affects arterial and venous pressure, heart rate, and peripheral vascular flow. Five years of research in the field of cardiology. Renshi rokudan in Uechi Ryu (one "style" of sanchin). Nidan in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (another "style of sanchin). My humble opinions follow:

    In the Uechi Sanchin

    Moderate tension should exist only to hold the pelvis under, keep the abdomen firm (not hard), keep the shoulders pulled down, and keep the straightened fingers rigid. The strikes and blocks are done with focus, and with as little counter resistence as possible. Uechi Ryu is a predominantly open handed system that employs specialized strikes with pointed surfaces to vulnerable areas. Maximal efforts are not necessary. 400 lb bench press ability is not necessary. Therefore there is no need to create a breathing technique WITH the strikes as it makes no difference in the ultimate utility of the strike. Uechi stylists thus choose to "hide" the breathing by taking breaths between strikes. There are exceptions to this in the Uechi system; any pushing movements would benefit from doing an exhale with the movement as there is resistance to the movement in much the same way as there is resistance to muscles in a bench press. But the bulk of the system (and the focus of Uechi Sanchin) is application of low internal resistance, focused techniques - good relaxed and fluid movement. The Valsalva discussion is moot.

    In the Goju system (from my perspective, experience, and opinion) The points of tension for the pelvic tuck, firm abdomen, lowered shoulders and firm hand are identical. However the Goju sanchin has a closed fist instead of an open, pointed hand. The hand positions are meant to be abstractions of the types of techniques done in the system. The predominant technique in Goju Ryu is the seiken (closed handed punch). The trademark technique of Uechi Ryu is the shoken (one knuckle punch). Goju's technique allows - and to some extent requires - more total energy. Consequently the practitioner benefits from resistance training. This is done in the Goju Sanchin through its dynamic tension fist strikes. The kata was choreographed long before Olympic weights and weight training machines were invented and in common use. However the way that these activities are done can - and should - be identical. The proper breathing in Goju Sanchin and a bench press should NOT be a Valsalva maneuver (breath hold).

    If one is doing a bench press with 50 pounds, IDEAL breathing would be a gentle exhale with each weight extension. There is a little value to this in that: 1) no breath holding exists which would create the Valsalva maneuver, and 2) the slightly increased intrathoracic pressure would increase blood flow to the muscles being worked. A similar situation exists in karate with a strong punch. All the same physiologic principles apply.

    If one is doing a bench press with a very heavy weight, IDEAL breathing would involve a more restricted exhale. The object is not to use the epiglottis as a cork. The principle is similar to the art of pressure cooking. A pressure cooker maintains a constant internal pressure to speed the process of cooking. The pressure inside is directly proportional to the little weight that one puts over the hole. Some pressure cookers actually come with several sized weights. One might be used to cook vegetables quickly. Another might be used to tenderize stew beef. In weight lifting and karate, the amount of counterresistance to an exhale should be proportional to the amount of work that one wants to do with a motion. We don't cork the pressure cooker because we don't want dinner all over the kitchen. We don't do a Valsalva maneuver in weight training or karate because we don't want strokes, aneurisms, hernias, hemorroids, or blackouts. If I am benching my max, I perform a veritable kiai (resistance to exhale results in a very loud yell).

    Goju Sanchin was designed to give us the ability to practice a tremendous dynamic range of resistance motions, and to learn how to correctly titrate the breathing resistance. Those I see practice the vein-popping muscle- rippling window-rattling sanchin are - in my humble opinion - suffering from testosterone-induced showmanship. They do impress some people. They do not impress me as being particulary enlightened. The amount of time a martial arts practitioner spends moving pianos for self defense is rare. So why spend so much time practicing something that has little application? Most smart martial artists evolve to a point where they get the job done with the LEAST amount of effort.

    One final note. Everybody always talks about exhaling. Does anybody out there (with the exception of Bill Clinton) ever inhale? The nose-restricted inhale is the yin half to the epiglottis restricted (yang) exhale. Restricting an inhale LOWERS the intrathoracic pressure. This increases venous return and subsequently gives the heart more blood to pump out on the exhale. This also eliminates the cumulative negative effects of restrictive exhales. One should not be done without the other.

    My conclusions: the negative effects discussed are irrelevant in the Uechi Sanchin. They are potentially there in the Goju style Sanchin, but only if done improperly.

    Bill Glasheen
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  5. #20
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    I'd like to see some comments on the post before and also someone that could explain in simple words what isometric contraction is...
    If possible explain the medical facts with simple language that everybody can understand
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  6. #21
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    This posting, made more sense than most of what is prominjant on the net these days.

    Good perspective on both NahaTe Ryu.

    Was this personal conclusion from martial and medical study, or some knowledge passed on through a ryu ha?
    Steven L. Malanoski

  7. #22
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    When we do Sanchin Kata in my dojo (Goju Ryu), we are always reminded of the potential health dangers. The sensei is often more concerned about someone's healthy breathing than he is about going around to do shime.

    To say that Sanchin is dangerous just seems silly to me, and sounds like the comments of someone who has watched it without participating in it, or someone who was trained in it incorrectly.

    Any martial art is dangerous if not done right, no?
    Joshua Fruhlinger

  8. #23
    kenshorin Guest

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    Originally posted by stencil
    When we do Sanchin Kata in my dojo (Goju Ryu), we are always reminded of the potential health dangers. The sensei is often more concerned about someone's healthy breathing than he is about going around to do shime.

    To say that Sanchin is dangerous just seems silly to me, and sounds like the comments of someone who has watched it without participating in it, or someone who was trained in it incorrectly.

    Any martial art is dangerous if not done right, no?
    This is true... however, I think more people are aware of the dangers of physical karate, and perhaps not aware of the dangers of forceful breathing, whether they are true or not. You are lucky that you are given the information and allowed to decide. Most people don't have that. I don't know if I totally agree that it is terribly harmful if done right; but then, I have seen some people who really don't know what they are doing who I have seen and been like, "yeah, now THEY are probably going to hurt themselves doing that!"

  9. #24
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    Originally posted by stencil

    To say that Sanchin is dangerous just seems silly to me, and sounds like the comments of someone who has watched it without participating in it, or someone who was trained in it incorrectly.
    I asked this not for have been watching Sanchin being performed...
    I asked because for instance, I once read that during Shime you should not be punched in the stomach (abdominal area), and during Shime my sensei punches and strikes us in that area... Is that correct or incorrect? And when I say "strikes" he really "strikes" us...
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  10. #25
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    Filipe:

    It's my understanding, and what I've been told, that the purpose of being "struck" in the abdomen is really to check that you're exhaling from your abdomen/diaphragm as opposed to from your chest.

    A hard strike there, I'm afraid, can't be all that good for you. My sensei will give us a good shuto slap, but nothing to really hurt us. He'll also check between our shoulder blades that we're tight there as well. Also with the legs and a bit of a kick to make sure that our sanchin stance is correct. His "strikes" are meant to teach us, not hurt us.
    Joshua Fruhlinger

  11. #26
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    Joshua:
    I just want to explain something. My sensei doesn't strike us hard in order to hurt us, he does it in order to test our cocentration and help us to improve our Sanchin, and maybe he does it because it's the way he sees the situation...
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  12. #27
    hobbitbob Guest

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    Not a physician, merely a grad student in history and a 16 year EMT-P. Anyway, it would seem to me that it would be impossible to sustain the increased intrathoracic pressure generated by Ibuki breathing long enough to do any real damage. In my modest experience, using the valsalva manouvre with patients in SVT, the results are self-limiting. I.e....one would "pass out" before doping too much damage (consider the oft repeated childhood threats of breath holding.).
    In a small example of the grand tradition of self experimentation in medicine, I hooked myself up to the monitor and did Sanchin, paying attention to heart rate and any ectopy that might occur (yes, it was a slow night in the ED tonight!). I observed the following:
    1) The rest of the nursing staff, as well as the staff docs and residents look at you funnily when you are hissing like a teakettle.
    2) There was a corresponding drop in heart rate from my usual 60ish to the low 50's during exhalation.
    3) my HR incresed to 90ish during the three spear hand strikes.
    4) My beginning blood pressure of 100/52 and ending BP of 148/70 were explainable in terms of short term exertion, and do not seem to represent anything that might imply a harmful trend.
    IF any Kata is hazardous to one's health, in my opinion, it is Unsu (Especially for those of us in the over 30 crowd, with bad knees!) and Kanku-Dai, which leaves me feeling like I've just run five miles uphill!
    Whoops...sleep deprivation induced digression.
    Osu!

  13. #28
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    hobbitbob thank you very much for your post! It's really interesting!
    But there are certain things I didn't understood... For example what is an ectopy?
    Is that drop in heart rate (HR I presume) during exhalation normal? And if not is it harmful? And the increment until 90ish?

    "My beginning blood pressure of 100/52 and ending BP of 148/70 were explainable in terms of short term exertion" <<-- What do this mean?

    It's kind of difficult to someone with no medical knowledge to understand some of these things!
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  14. #29
    davoravo Guest

    Post A little sanity

    Chronic high blood pressure causes damage, not little spikes. Being fit and healthy decreases your long term blood pressure. Sharp spikes in blood pressure are only bad if you are one of those incredibly unlucky people who have a problem with the blood vessels in the brain (eg A-V malformation, berry aneurysm - all very rare). Likewise the damage from obstructive sleep apnoea is due to chronic hypercarbia and abnormalities in thoracic pressure not occasional breaths (how long do you sleep compared to how long you do sanchin?)

    If Sanchin were so dangerous so would standing on your head and weight lifters clean and jerks.

    An ectopy is most easily described as an extra heart beat (usually arising in an damaged part of the heart or representing a problem in the way the heart conducts its electrical signals) and isn't really relevant to this situation.

    A drop in heart rate on exhalation and an increase on inhalation are completely normal. A small increase in heart rate and blood pressure with exercise is normal

    If you are overweight and the fat goes on your abdomen that is a high risk factor for heart disease. The distribution of fat is genetically determined, not exercise determined - you can't spot reduce (or spot increase no matter how many of those pumps you buy ).

    Don't Japanese consider having a little pot a sign of good hara?

    "There was a corresponding drop in heart rate from my usual 60ish to the low 50's during exhalation" - hobbitbob you are fit!!

  15. #30
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    Default Re: A little sanity

    Originally posted by davoravo
    Don't Japanese consider having a little pot a sign of good hara?
    "Chiru no Chan Chan" is the name given at Okinawa to that type of muscular condition, where the muscles are strong as steel but flexible and elastic. Specially to the practice of karate the muscles should be strong but flexible and covered by a "protective ammount of fat"
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

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