Shinto-ryu

[Kendoguy9]

Hello everyone,

I do not know if I should post this here or in the sword forum, but I'll start it here.

I have recently been thinking about the Shinto-ryu kenjutsu found in the Shindo Muso-ryu. Of the opinions of the people here, does the ryu merit studying on it's own devoid of Shindo Muso-ryu? While I realize the 12-kata school is part of the Shindo Muso-ryu I think it might make an interesting study by itself. Do you think that jodo is too ingrained in the movements to be separated again from jodo? While I know the answer to this question, I will ask it anyway; is it likely that anyone with menkyo kaiden in Shinto-ryu kenjutsu would teach it as a separate art with it's own levels or ranks? My questions could also be asked of Uchida-ryu, and really all of the "extra arts" in Shindo Muso-ryu.


Any thoughts?

[Jeff Hamacher]

my impression is that Shinto-ryu kenjutsu is generally only taught to exponents of Shinto Muso-ryu jo, and usually only after the exponent has been training in jo for some time. the only students in my dojo who have any training in SMR's ancillary arts are two 5-dan holders (both have just finished learning the kenjutsu kata) and the most senior of our 4-dan students (she's very close to finishing the jutte/tessen kata). i'm not certain what, if any, level of koryu license these students hold.

one japanese website states that, according to certain sources, Gonnosuke devised the jo techniques based on the techniques of what became the ancillary arts including Shinto-ryu kenjutsu. at least, this is what i'm able to gather; my ability to read japanese is not quite at a native level just yet. whether this means you might as well study the ancillary arts separately or if you should only study them as part of SMR jo training, i really can't say. if you'd like to take a look at the website in question (assuming your computer in enabled to read japanese), i can post the link later.

as to the value of learning the kenjutsu set on its own, i'm sure you'd get something out of it, but it might be more valuable as part of integral SMR training. rest assured, SMR jo training will give you plenty of practice with tachi. i'd be happy to put your questions to my teacher and see what he says. of course, you may receive a more authoritative response than mine from our moderator Dianne and others before i can get back to you. HTH.

[Kendoguy9]

Thank you for the reply Jeff,

I would enjoy seeing the link you have. Although my Japanese reading is almost nonexistent I have a few friends who are excellent readers, I can get their help I consider myself very lucky, because I have trained Shindo Muso-ryu jo with Kaminoda sensei in gasshuku here in Maryland. At the gasshuku he gave everyone a taste of the other arts as well as jodo so I know a few kata of ken, tanjo and hojo, and have seen some of the sharpest jutte and kusarigama demos around. I guess the idea of these once separate ryu now being permanently grafted onto jodo seems strange to me somehow. Although, if not for the jodo I suppose none of the extra arts would have survived. Who knows?

gambatte!!!

[Jack B]

Some sources indicate the ancillary arts being added to SMR Jo much later than at its creation in 1605:

Matsuzaki Kinuemon 3rd Head (c. late 1600's)
- ITTATSU RYU HOJOJUTSU
- IKKAKU RYU JUTTEJUTSU

Hirano Kichizo (13th or 15th Head, d. 1871)
- SHINTO RYU KENJUTSU

Uchida Ryogoro 23rd Head (1837-1921)
- UCHIDA RYU SUTEKKIJUTSU (TANJOJUTSU)

Shiraishi Hanjiro Shigeaki 24th Head (1842-1927)
- ISSHIN RYU KUSARIGAMAJUTSU

There is nothing indicating whether these later dates are for introduction of the weapons or "formal inclusion" as part of the art. Only the 8 odachi and 4 kodachi appear on the densho. The early appearance of Jutte and Hojojutsu make sense with Jo being used as a "policing" art. There is certainly oral history to the effect that Jo is derived from other weapons (spear, sword, naginata), and the ken and jutte kata show great similarity to the jo techniques.

There are also documents stating that Gonnosuke included the Kusarigamajutsu (as founded by Nen Ami Gion 1408) and that the Kenjutsu is Kasumi Shinto Ryu (a cultural treasure, 600 yrs old or more).

Jack Bieler
Denton TX

[Jeff Hamacher]

just for reference, here's the website i referred to upthread.

Originally posted by Jack B
>> Some sources indicate the ancillary arts being added to SMR Jo much later than at its creation in 1605: (...)
There is nothing indicating whether these later dates are for introduction of the weapons or "formal inclusion" as part of the art. <<

i would submit that these arts existed before Gonnosuke codified his SMR jo and thus could have influenced how he developed his techniques, regardless of when they became heiden. naturally, Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu wasn't created until the Meiji Period so that's one exception.

>> Only the 8 odachi and 4 kodachi appear on the densho. <<

interestingly enough, this same web page states that the Shinto-ryu kenjutsu do not appear in the densho.

>> ... and that the Kenjutsu is Kasumi Shinto Ryu ...<<

given that Gonnosuke was an exponent of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, i assume that this would have had a greater influence than other schools of kenjutsu. where did you get the info on Kasumi Shinto-ryu? do you mean Kashima Shinto-ryu?

[Tom Christy]

Jeff,

I, like you, have not trained long enough to have any personal experience with the Shinto ryu kata. However, I remember a while ago on the Iaido-L mailing list when this subject came up.

On 18 May 2000, the esteemed Meik Skoss had this to say about the subject:

"First off, the correct name for the kenjutsu is Shinto-ryu, not Kasumi Shinto-ryu. I don't know where Kaminoda gets that or why he calls it by that name, but there is *no* reference to "Kasumi" Shinto-ryu anywhere that I've found (and I've looked). It's certainly not in any of the densho related to Shinto Muso-ryu that I've seen."

On 21 May 2000, Jerry O'Brien responded:

"Although we (Beikoku Rembukan) don't want to speak for Kaminoda Sensei, we
can share with you all, what Kaminoda Sensei has shared with us regarding the
providence of "Kasumi" Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. He has said many times that
Shimizu Takaji S. would say that the proper name of what he referred to, as
"Shinto Ryu" kenjutsu had been lost to history. In fact, the name is VERY
generic and most likely not the primogenitor of the ryu. The SMR Densho list
the teacher of Muso Gonosuke (founder of SMR) as Sakurai Osumi-no-Kami, and
thus a most probable source of the kenjutsu that would become incorporated
into the SMR.

We are not scholars but understand that this research is difficult because of
the limited and fragmented documentation available. Moreover, in Japan, much
archival material is kept in private hands. Five years ago (Heisei 6), the
family of a minor lord from Makabei donated a large family archive to the
municipal historical museum for the purpose of historical research and
preservation. Just prior to or about Genroku 10, the Makabei family decided
to document and confirm their own family genealogy and used many cross
references to go back 23 generations. This Makabei history dates back to
Heian Jidai (circa 1140). The Japanese government has authenticated these
family documents and granted them "Kunishite Shiseki" status.

Amongst these records were references to a deshi of Tsukuhara Bokuden named
Makabei Hisamoto whose nickname was Oni Doumu. This man was a senior student
of Tsukuhara Bokuden as well as the 17th generation lord of a minor fief in
close proximity to the Kashima Jingu. Even the Takeda (Shingen) records make
strong mention of Doumu as a warrior to be feared. Now Bokuden referred to
his style of Kenjutsu as "Shinto (god's way) Ryu" Kenjutsu., probably because
it was near the shrine that he developed his sword style. Information
distributed by the Shrine indicate that he later kept the name Shinto Ryu but
changed the characters to read "new just way" and later his son or son in law
made a new conjugation using Shinto Ryu as "new wave". Suffice to say that
the style of kenjutsu practiced by Oni Doumo was Shinto Ryu. The Makabei
records go further and clearly refer to the Kenjutsu practiced by Doumo and
his retainers as "KASUMI Shinto Ryu."

Now how does all this pertain to SMR you might ask? Well, the archive
mentions one of the retainers of Doumo who was a lieutenant named Sakurai
Osumi-no-Kami, who would become Muso's teacher. Furthermore, the description
of the techniques of Kasumi Shinto Ryu bore very strong similarities to those
practiced today within the "Shinto Ryu" kenjutsu of SMR. Kaminoda Sensei was
invited as a legitimate senior practitioner of Shindo Muso Ryu to meet with
the historians who were studying the Makabei archive and consider those
martial aspects reflected in the discussions pursuant to Kasumi Shinto Ryu.
He was able to clearly identify the 12 kata (8 tachi and 4 kodachi)
techniques described in these documents.

Kaminoda Sensei holds in his possession much of the historical documentation
pertaining the history of SMR and has shared much of this material with other
researchers such as Matsui Kenji in his oft quoted work as translated by
Hunter Armstrong. He has said that he has often invited others to review the
Makabei documents as well. It is not Kaminoda S. wish to invent something
"new" and by using the name of "Kasumi Shinto Ryu" Sensei only wishes to
share with his students and others this new historical data. We by no means
imply that the Kenjutsu practiced by us is different from the style practiced
by other SMR enthusiasts and hope that new information such as this will lead
to more congenial relationships within the Jodo community. Moreover, any
scholar who considers the case closed is set for surprises, as there are
certain to be more pieces of information uncovered that might hold keys to
understanding more about these marvelous traditions."



Hope this helps (and hope to see you in March!),

Tom Christy

[Jeff Hamacher]

thank you for the input, Tom. that certainly helps to clear things up! i don't know if i'll be in tokyo next march, since i test in october and then won't be allowed to test for another year. on the other hand, if you and the boys could see your way clear to swinging up towards Nagano, i'd be happy to show you around a bit. take care and stay in touch.

[kantsipr]

I have trained Shindo Muso-ryu jo with Kaminoda sensei in gasshuku here in
Maryland.

Chris, what are you talking about? Taking into account that you're a young man and full of enthusiasm, you just simply aren't a deshi of Kaminoda S. Lotsa people get confused and think that attending an open seminar with scores of other folks entitle them to list a teacher as being their own.
There is a huge difference between being at class and getting the "transmission" and struggling with this stuff over a sustained period of time, and showing up for an annual event! You have never been to the dojo, you have never been to the special training Kaminoda Sensei provides before or after these seminars and as far as I know, you've never been invited to.

I wonder just how much jutte, kusarigama etc. that you've actually seen to compare it to when you use phrases like, "have seen some of the sharpest jutte and kusarigama demos around" You're hardly an authority, and, although, of course, you're entitled to an opinion, you ought to mention precisely what your bona fides are.... which in SMRJ are pretty much zippo.

Brian Kantsiper

[Kendoguy9]

Wow Brian you sure sound pissy,

You're right, I am NOT a deshi of Kaminoda and NEVER did I say that I was (what lines are your reading between? none that I wrote). My statement only recognizes I have trained with him at the gasshuku. I don't know how you read into that more then what I wrote. And yes I know there is a difference between being a deshi and having trained with someone at a seminar but again I NEVER said that I was his deshi (how did you come around to the idea I said I was?). You're right, I have NEVER been to the special classes before or after the gasshuku, and NOWHERE in my post did I imply that I had (where are you pulling this stuff out of?!? or do I want to know!?). You're also right I have NEVER been to the Rembukan (wow something else you jump on my back for that I never said I did), but I was invited a few times by both Rick Polland sensei and Dan Pearson sempai, I just cannot commit the time to them that they deserve. A friend of mine Arman was a member of the dojo and was at the special classes after I introduced him to Mr. Polland, but you're right I have NEVER done any of those things (and I NEVER said I had). Thank you Mr. Obvious. However I have seen, albeit on tape, other people do Kusarigama, Jutte, Kenjutsu etc. And while I am certainly no authority (and yet again NEVER claimed to be one) Kaminoda sensei and his group look the most precise of the groups I have seen from a layman point of view. Last time I checked terms like "sharpest" and "nifty" and "slick" etc. were not authoritative phrases. I don't recall in any book by Draeger or any other authority on budo saying anything like, "Sensei X. did some nifty waza it sure looked sharp. I wish I could do some slick stuff like that then I'd be phat too", ad nauseam. So go police someone else and don't put words in my mouth. Oh yeah and just out of curiosity who are you? You sure know a lot about me to jump down my throat. I have no hard feelings towards you though; keep on training.

keep on keeping on ,

[Andy Watson]

Chris

I just read your reply to Mr Angry. I guess even men get PMT.