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Thread: What do these titles actually mean?

  1. #1
    kenshorin Guest

    Default What do these titles actually mean?

    OK I know this question has been asked before, but I was wondering if anyone can give full literal meanings for the following terms -

    Shidoin
    Shidoshi
    Sempai
    Sensei
    Renshi
    Kyoshi
    Hanshi
    Shihan
    Soke

    Like I said, I'm looking more for literal meanings, so although "sensei" means "teacher" I'm looking for the literal "one who comes before" or "renshi" being "one who knows" (at least thats what I've been told the literal translations are)

    You see these terms being thrown around by all sorts of sokeydokeys and I was wondering what these people are literally calling themselves.

  2. #2
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    Off the top of my head, for my school and style:

    Shihan - master instructor (Gokudan and higher)
    Sempai - senior student up through Nidan
    Sensei - Sandan and higher
    Soke - originator of style

    Though quite commonly 'soke' has come to mean "self-promoted scam artist". There are actually very few real soke out there - I'd hazard a guess and say that 99% of them are just some dude who decided it was a good way to make money after getting promoted to Sandan and moving out of the locale of his old teacher.

    Harvey Moul

    Fish and visitors stink after three days - Ben Franklin

  3. #3
    Tommy_P Guest

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    I think sempai (or senpai) comes from when karate moved into the college universities and the word had to do with upperclassmen or "mentors". It was adapted into their karate training and a student who had been training longer (nothing to do with rank) would take a new student under his wing.....mentor him. This student would be called kohai. The sempai wouldn't be the sempai of the class...just have a single sempai/kohai relationship.

    As for the rest of the titles (with the exception of soke) I can't give the literal translations but I think that the characters used to write these titles all translate to "teacher".

    Some may mean teachers teacher or expert teacher etc I think but all basicly teacher.....maybe someone else can help me out here?

    Tommy

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    Hello Kenshorin,

    Here are the literal and figurative translations (from the Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary (4th edition,1974; 27th printing 1991):

    [My comments in square brackets]

    1. Shidoin. An insturctor; a supervisor; an advisor.
    [comprised of three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; in=member. One who "points the way/guides" is a teacher.]

    [1a. ~hosa. Aid; assistant; counselor; advisor -- in budo "Shidoin-hosa" means assistant instructor.]

    2. Shidoshi. A leader; a guide. a director. the mentor of a group; a pilot a coach; a rudder; a mastermind. [three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; sha=person.]

    3. Sempai (also "senpai"). A senior; a superior; an elder; a predecessor; a progenitor; an old-timer. [two kanji: sen=before; pai=? ... I don't have my kanji dictionary here ]

    4. Sensei. Teacher. [two kanji: sen=before; sei=born. A "catch-all" word to mean politician, doctor, or *any* sort of teacher -- aerobics, fishing, calligraphy, martial art, kindergarten, high school, university .... you get the picture]

    5. Renshi. Trainer. [two kanji: ren=forge; shi=gentleman/samurai. This is the first of three teaching licenses in swordsmanship. The licenses originally were used in fencing, but eventually spread to other sections within the Dai Nippon Butokukai in the 1930s. My understanding is these three terms are relatively new, ca. 1895.]]

    6. Kyoshi. Teacher. [two kanji: kyo=instruct; shi=gentleman/samurai. There is an alternative -- and more used -- spelling using a different kanji for "shi=teacher"; this example means a high school teacher. When the "shi" kanji for "gentleman" is used, it indicates the middle teaching rank for fencing.]

    7. Hanshi. "A fencing master of the top rank" [two kanji: han=example/model; shi=gentleman/samurai.]

    8. Shihan. A teacher; a master; a preceptor; an instructor; a coach. [two kanji: shi=instruct; han=example/model. This word is not the same as "hanshi" that is reversed.]

    9. Soke. "The head family (house)." [two kanji: sou=root/main ; ke=house/family. In Confucian teachings, the "main" importance within the "house" is the father. The term "Soke" implies the father/family relationship between school leader and students. This also is a relatively new term in budo -- here's Dr. Bodiford's outstanding thread http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...highlight=soke.]

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  5. #5
    kenshorin Guest

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    Mr. Power -

    Thanks, thats exactly what I was looking for. I knew it had been discussed in the past also, but I couldn't find the specific threads. Thanks for all the help.

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    Harvey,

    What's a "gokudan"? Do you mean "godan" or "rokudan" or something else entirely?

    Thanks.
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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    According to my Japanese instructor, 5th dan is gokudan. As I've also seen it as godan, I've just assumed it was "one of those things" and not worried about it.

    Harvey Moul

    Fish and visitors stink after three days - Ben Franklin

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    Hi

    I was lead to believe that Hatsumi Masaaki the Soke of the Bujinkan Dojo invented this word. So right or wrong it is used to denote a teacher. It is made form three kanji

    “y (soil, earth, ground)
    “¹ (path, way)
    Žt (Master, teacher, expert)

    we also use shidoshi-ho to denote assistant instructors

    Soke also means 'head of family'
    for more info regading the title soke and such check these articles out

    http://koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html
    http://koryu.com/library/mskoss4.html
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

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    Originally posted by ghp
    1. Shidoin. An insturctor; a supervisor; an advisor.
    [comprised of three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; in=member. One who "points the way/guides" is a teacher.]

    [1a. ~hosa. Aid; assistant; counselor; advisor -- in budo "Shidoin-hosa" means assistant instructor.]

    2. Shidoshi. A leader; a guide. a director. the mentor of a group; a pilot a coach; a rudder; a mastermind. [three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; sha=person.]
    Originally posted by poryu
    I was lead to believe that Hatsumi Masaaki the Soke of the Bujinkan Dojo invented this word. So right or wrong it is used to denote a teacher. It is made form three kanji

    “y (soil, earth, ground)
    “¹ (path, way)
    Žt (Master, teacher, expert)
    Hi.
    I am far from as knowledgeable in Japanese as Guy, but here are some comments (and a question) anyway.
    Shidoin would be written with kanji like this: Žw“±ˆõ if used the characters Guy describe.
    As for Shidoshi, Guy has explained Shidosha, and Shidosha would in kanji be: Žw“±ŽÒ

    As for shidoshi, I have always thought that it was written Žw“±Žm, but according to Poryu it is clearly other kanji used.

    In Shorinjikempo the term Shidoin are used so that is one I am familiar with, as for Shidosha that is in my dictionary explained as "leader" so that is a word of common use.
    Anybody that can explain more about the term "Shidoshi", and if there are several ways to write it (in kanji)?

    Maybe this thread should be in the language forum?

    /Anders
    Last edited by Anders Pettersson; 9th July 2002 at 07:03.
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Hi GUys

    as for my version of Shidoshi I am using the Kanji that appear on both my Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho menkyo, these are handwritten by Hatsumi sensei.

    hope this helps
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

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    Default "termatter" or "tomato"

    Paul,
    as for my version of Shidoshi I am using the Kanji that appear on both my Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho menkyo, these are handwritten by Hatsumi sensei.
    The Japanese have a penchant for inventing new ways of "spelling" rather mundane words when the spirit suits them. The shidoshi that I cited is from the standard Japanese dictionary and gives the "proper" accepted way of writing the kanji. I'm not saying your teacher is wrong -- the Japanese language lends itself to puns and other machinations because the Japanese borrowed a Chinese style of writing for their own pecular language. And the many, many, many homophones for every character really makes inventing new ways of writing all the more fun.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    HI Guy

    Tell me about it, Hatsumi is wel known for playing with Kanji to create new ways of wrting things.

    I once saw three shodo he had written handed out, all said Goshin, all written differently

    He also has a habit of using old Kanji that many Japanese either dont use anymore or cant read
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

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    Default Re: "termatter" or "tomato"

    Originally posted by ghp
    The shidoshi that I cited is from the standard Japanese dictionary and gives the "proper" accepted way of writing the kanji.
    Regards,
    Guy
    Hi Guy,
    How would you write that version of Shidoshi in kanji? I don't have any dictionary that lists it (don't really have any good kanji dictionaries) and I am always happy to learn from someone that knows.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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    Post kanji

    Hello Anders,

    I'm separated from my Nelson's ... I'll access it tomorrow and give you the Nelson citation. Would that help? I have no way of posting kanji on this board. If all else fails, I could scan the kanji and send you a jpg file.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Default Re: kanji

    Originally posted by ghp
    I'm separated from my Nelson's ... I'll access it tomorrow and give you the Nelson citation. Would that help?
    Hi Guy.
    Yes that would help, thank you for your trouble.

    /Anders
    Anders Pettersson
    www.shorinjikempo.net - www.shorinjikempo.se
    半ばは自己の幸せを、半ばは他人の幸せを - 宗 道臣
    "Nakaba wa jiko no shiawase wo, nakaba wa hito no shiawase wo" - So Doshin

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