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Thread: Aikijujutsu Technique: Shihonage

  1. #31
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    Nathan,

    I appreciate your explanations and I'm familiar with the basic Yoshinkan version as well as most of the others being discussed. The key as I think you're putting it is the set-up/kuzushi that is applied prior to pivoting and/or going under the arm (however people are doing it). Kuzushi is crucial for the success of nearly all aikido/judo/jujutsu/aikijujutsu techniques. It is, as you know another fundamental basic kihon with it's own set of governing principles.

    While most styles include (or need) some kuzushi for their techniques to be effective what differentiates many styles and traditions is the huge variety of ways that kuzushi is accomplished. How you are getting and maintaining kuzushi throughout your techniques should be a crucial area of study and practice. Again, adhering to principle(s) is important.

    IF you've adequately locked up and unbalanced your opponent you should be able to do shiho nage effectively, whether you drop down to one knee, or stay upright, because you've locked the guy all up and taken their root/balance away you have the position of advantage and freedom to do the technique. You may even be able to get away with ducking your head or stooping over, because you've set the technique up right. But I think that doing so abandons some of those basic principles (kamae, maai, zanshin) that I mentioned in a previous post, and creates an opening that can be exploited.

    While videos and mpegs are clearer than words on a screen sometimes - there's often a lot of other things going on that also can't be seen and/or expanded on without being pointed out in person. Particularly with aikijujutsu. It's much better (imo) to have these sort of discussions with your instructor in (or after) class. That way they can impart to you the knowledge and expertise that they have of your system. Now that also underscores the need to seek out proper instruction from someone who really knows their basics inside and out - and is willing to pass on those principles and skills to their students.

    Gregory,

    All's well with me, I love to disagree with nice guys. Please call me Brently, I have a background in wrestling too (we should swap stories should we ever have the pleasure of meeting someday).

    I'm not familiar with the pasata soto move or the Bowie method so I can't really comment on that. As a kid, Jim Bowie was one of my heroes though.

    As for sutemi waza - You're right, I'll grant you that there may be some situations where you might want bend at the waist or otherwise compromise your posture intentionally (rei for another example) - but that's very different than compromising in order to accomodate to your opponent. The nature of sutemi waza is, as they're called, "sacrificial" - you're giving up something in hopes of gaining another thing. Because you're giving up/sacraficing your posture, their success really depends on their unexpected surprise, and your ability to lock-up and/or capitalize on your opponent's over-commitment or sure feeling that he's got you. Typically in judo/jujutsu these are last resort moves for when you can't stop your opponent from taking you down so you take him down with you - in hopes of turning the tables and improving your position in the process. Still there are principles that apply (in one of my previous posts I spoke of foundational AND other peripheral and/or contextual principles). At any rate, shiho nage isn't a sutemi waza, and I don't think it's necessary or advisable to compromise your posture (or any other basics) in the process of executing any variation of that particular throw.

    As a side note, when aiki is added to the mix, sutemi waza take on a whole new dimension. As I'm sure Cady knows, Kiyama sensei (Kodokai), and some of his students really shine at these sort of moves.

    Ron,

    Boxers are fun to play with (until you get hit by one). I've had the pleasure of working with a several over the years. If I recall correctly, Kuriowa sensei (aikikai) has a background in boxing and gave a rather memorable demo against boxing and other more practical types of attacks in one of the earlier Aiki News tapes (Friendship Demo?). Personally I like to work off the jab, before the cross gets too close for comfort - but the typical shiho nage would not be my choice in that case. In any case, I think that Jesse was talking about shiho nage from a wrist grab.

    Brently Keen

  2. #32
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    Question all the work?

    Heya Cady,


    There's tons of value in figureing out things for yourself, and then testing your theories in practice to confirm them or not... in my case, usually not... *grin*

    As Ilearn more about the nervous system and ways into manipulating it, I think I could come up with many ways to trigger ... parasympathetic dominance in more then the way we all first think of.

    whether or not Takeda or anyone else has come up with all of these ideas is meaningless to me. Of course, I'll doubtless be shown some hugely cool concept one day by an experienced practicioner of any given deadly art which uses the concept I may come p with myself, or which perfects my clouded theories. This doesn't mean the homework is useless, hell I could discover the lightbulb along the way right?

    Just simple ideas of low-level survival, like the stretch reflex in muscles can be exploited to make shihonage work differently entirely, is this useful in practice? maybe not, but it sure could be instructive on the workbench (in our case a padded workbench with sweat/spit and gatorade......

    Just the other day I had a non-martialartist crumple me up by understanding the paths my joints really take as I breath and move. with some refining and some lessons about distancing, he'd be able to apply it as a devistating technique (which you've done to me) but in his case, it was an academic demonstration of how ribs and shoulders connect to the pelvis.... and the other way round, which makes me very curious about some things...

    love,

    Joel

  3. #33
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    Talking

    Yo, Zimba mon!

    What can I say? I'm just inherently lazy. It took me 20 years to figure out some of the most ridiculously simple "basics" in one art. No way would I wanna go through that again.

    Better to spend that time practicing and trying to get already proven principles, than waste it trying to reinvent the wheel. That's work enough for a lifetime.

    Hey, when you coming up to train, Stinky Boy?

    love,
    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

  4. #34
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    Default Katsuyuki Kondo, demonstrates Shihonage

    In today's newsletter of Aikido Journal there was this interesting video of Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei, Menkyo Kaiden in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, demonstrating the art’s shihonage technique both with and without the sword. Kondo Sensei gives some examples of the concept of “Aiki” in his demonstration.

    http://store.aikidojournal.com/katsu...tes-shihonage/

  5. #35
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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:17.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #36
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Oh, I just realized this post is actually in the AJJ forum. I forgot we had this forum!

    Carina, I hope you don't mind, but I merged your post with an existing thread on the same subject here in hopes of improving search results and responses.

    Also, I noticed that the clip that is on Aikido Journal is from a commercial DVD published by QUEST. I'm hoping the link from Aikido Journal, that links to the original youtube link, was uploaded with permission. The youtube clip indicates it was originally uploaded by "decepticon". Hopefully this is not a copyright violation (I'll remove the link if it is). That being said, I agree that it is an interesting clip, and I recommend the DVD.
    Thank you Nathan!

  7. #37
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    Unfortunately someone has bootlegged the whole Daito-ryu DVD by Kondo sensei (Quest) onto youtube. It's under learning Aikido Step by Step.

    Jose Garrido
    Jose' delCristo Garrido
    Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Mainline Tradition
    NYC Metro Area Branch Dojo
    facebook.com/daitoryudojonj

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