Gracie tales, lies?

[Lens]

I don't intend to start a flame war. I was innocently looking on the chinese arts and found a Wing Tsun Site and on this site i found an article on the gracies dated back to 1994.

if youd like to look it up the address is:
http://www.wingtsun.nl/chal-grc.htm

Is this the truth revealed or just another con?

I tried to find more info on the subject but failed but i also came accross another article by carlson gracie pinpointing out the corruption (lies) of the (some) other gracies..... actualy i couldent understand this one correctly so i will leave it up to you to gudge.

this is the address.
http://bjj.org/interviews/carlson-1997.html

Please i would appreceate some decent replies.
Thanks

[Kevin73]

I remember reading about the challenge matches in Blackbelt magazine. Emin is pretty much telling it, that he was challenged when they were trying to make a name for themselves (and yes, they also challenged Mike Tyson to a fight) and then Emin challenged them back and from what I remember they put so many stipulations on it, the fight never happened. Emin was already a name in the martial arts scene before the Gracies came along, Emin wasn't trying to bank on them.

Over on the "Underground Forum", I have read a lot of stuff in other instances where the Gracies were caught in lies that they had told, and then made excuses on why. For Example, Rickson claims to be undefeated in something like over 700 matches but he was beat in a sport compeition one time, but that didn't count because it wasn't jui-jitsu. Also, that Helio lost also when they were claiming they were undefeated for 60-70 yrs or whatever.

BTW: I don't really care for either side, I just don't like the excuses/lies that I have seen them do to promote their style.

[Qasim]

They're claiming that

"Now in the U.S., Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has been considered the most effective form of Martial Art."

This is a quote from Carlson Gracie's site. I'm waiting to hear the result of a street altercation in which a person who studies this gets stomped into next week because he used this system to defend himself against an attacker and as he was busy wrestling this guy to the ground and the attacker's while his friends were punching and kicking him. This is wrestling, not jujutsu. It won't be too long before it is an Olympic sport.

[MarkF]

Real judo is already an Olympic sport. It doesn't need the Gracies.


Mark

[Lens]

I don't like it when people bash me because i stepped on their infected toe!

I have always had a cany sense of feeling about the gracies. not that i hate them because i dont hate anyone but i dont like their attidtude. I hate their attitude not them personaly!.

But looking at some old photos of them saying they fought copera and so and won.....i was actuly questioning how much of a fight it was. It doesent look violent at all. Some of them are more like Judo games. (with all respect to the beautifull art of Judo, created by one of the best Martial Artists ever).

Looking at the original Jujutsu concepts and techniques i wonder where bjj came from. They profess about having evolved Jujutsu because its stagnated in Japan. Sorry but evolved into what? wrestling?

Jigaro Kano evolved his Jujitsu into Kodo-Kan Jujutsu and he was responsible enough to realize that it was changed so much from the original concepts of Jujutsu that it wasen't Jujutsu anymore but it became a way of the Ju. Judo.

Why don't the gracies get their own name for their style considering its that much changed from the original Judo they learned? Why not give it a brazilian name since they call it brazilian? why take a nations pride and give it to another?

These are all questions i had for years and i am sure some others feel the same as me.

Thanks

[Guts]

I read about that challange awhile back. Someone had taken the time to get all materials from both the Gracies and the Wing Chun fighter. From reading it, it sounded like both parties didn't really want a piece of eachother, more so on the Gracie side. All I've heard is stories, so you don't really know unless you have first hand experience. But, I've heard from lots of people that the Gracies lie about lots of things. There's lots of stories like this, Ricksons undefeated record, lots of people beg to differ about this. Brazilian JuJitsu stylist, Walid Ismail seems to hate the Gracies with a passion, and often curses them out in any interview he's in. He calls them liars and cowards. He seems like a zany guy, he definitely contradicts the typcial Brazilian JuJitsu stylist sterotype in some ways. He's the only Brazilain I have heard say Japanese JuJitsu is the best JuJitsu. I've heard that he beat up two Gracie school members when they jumped him in the streets of Brazil. Likewise, I've heard of a Karate guy who beat them in their own school, and then beat them when they jumped him later. Some Brazilians who practice Hsing I said that a Wing Chun man from China beat one of their high ranking guys, and it was hushed up because the head of the Gracie family spoke with the Chinese's teacher. Then there are the stories of Rorion swindling people left and right. These are all stories, and I have nothing to back them on. But, I've heard them and thought I would add them to the topic. My opinion, I think it's pretty probable that they lie.

[Finny]

Not that Im any expert, but I also heard somewhere that Emin Bozteppe is a "thug and a bully" who watied for William Cheung (who is 'getting on' nowadays) at one of his seminars, then jumped him from behind and rolled around on the floor with him for a while. All to make a name for himself.

Hes also recently left the Leung Ting Organisation to start his own.

As I said, this is not my personal info, just heard it somewhere and thought it might be relevant

[Guts]

I know zilch about the Wing Chun person. I know him saying he has 300/0 real fight record sounds fake to me, like Rickson's 400/0. Emin does have some good press from what I know though (His site has letters of accodation from the Marines and FBI among others, I don't know if they are legit or not). I read some favorable things about that fight between him and William Cheung. Emin's supporters of the story say that the fight went something like this-

William Cheung had been going around a long time saying he was the deadliest man in the world, he was the sole heir of Wing Chun, ecd. At one point, he sent two of his students to challange Emin. Instead, they fought Emin's students and were defeated. Later on, William Cheung said in a magazine interview something along the lines of that he would fight anywhere, anytime. Emin went to one of Williams seminars with the intention of taking him up on the challange. Emin approached William with the magazine in his hand, citing his challange. William said he would be glad to fight, but after the seminar. Emin said no, they had to fight now, that Williams challange was anywhere, anytime. William again said after the seminar, Emin informed him he would attack after he counted to 10. He did, and beat William. Supposedly, the story about Emin attacking William from behind started when William was shown a recording from the event that did not have the beginning of the fight, and he made up that he was attacked from behind.

I have no clue or real care if this is true, but it's another side of the argument.

[Zoyashi]

Hello All,
Okay, let’s take an objective look at this thread: it’s an outlandish mismatch of claims and counter-claims. Emin Boeztep claims he has beaten everybody and the Gracies are scared of him. William Cheung claims Emin jumped him. Nobody has any substantial proof of their claims, except for the vague rumors that float around the martial arts community, like having to register your hands with the police department when you get a blackbelt. B.S. The Gracies are definitely full of a lot of hot air regarding their win-loss record, but I will say this: they lay it on the line! There’s in the ring all the time, taking on fighters who generally outweigh them by 20 pounds. I’ve seen the 40 year old Rickson destroy in 12 minutes Japanese pro-fighter ten years younger and ten pounds bigger. And where was Emin when this was going on? Holding his hands up in “guard” around his waist and hocking his spastic-looking self defense tapes. I realize this is a bit emotional, but I get very irritated with “traditional” martial artists incessantly bad-mouthing MMA/UFC/the Gracies. That the Gracies are their own biggest fans is inarguable, and that they stretch the truth is likely. But at least they have the guts to get in the ring.

My two cents,
Josh Gepner

[Lens]

Wtih all respect,
As to Traditionalists bad mouthing MMA/NHB/Gracies, lets see where it all started. When NHB and so came in action, who was badmouthing who? NHB'ers calling traditionalist Paper tigers, inefective bla bla bla. Traditionalists are only defending them selves. If "modernists" spat it out then its up to them to swollow it back!

As to the term "modernists". Its a bit of a misjudging term. Wrestling has been around since medival times.

As to "at least they have the guts to get in the ring". Emin is pretty much saying the same. They do have the guts to get in the ring but what about outside of the ring?! They fight in their own enviorenment. Its reasonable but. Its easier to fight with your own rules rather then with your oponents rules and enviorenment.

Some people refer to traditionalist like its an occult.
I refer to traditionalists as, originalist, pureists, realists in the sense that if they say they do 'this' art then they are pretty much doing it and not doing a "mix mash" style and still refere to it with traditional name of a style!.

Jujitsu is not ground wrestling. The credit for the effectiveness of ground grapling should go to Jigaro Kano, Judo when it comes to japanese martial arts. Hes the creator of Judo.

Jujitsu is Jujitsu not wrestling, Judo is Judo, Karate is karate not kickboxing not muay tai. Ive seen poeple claiming to do Karate and they actualy are more like boxing, kick boxing and free street fighting strikers. Just beacause it is striking, it doesent mean its Karate.

The original Jujutsu, when it came to contests. Many People died in such bouts. That was totaly realy no rules. That is why Many Koryu Jujutsu don't do Bouts anymore. It was banned by the emperor back then. That is why the large Japanese groups nowadays stress the point of Education in Martial Arts. Also they don't whant to limit their techniques, because (one who studies koryu can confirm here) Koryu Jujitsu has a lot of techniques that are applied in the areas of the neck andlower head and also the Spine wich are proven lethal (striking and pressure points).
In NHB its banned!

Now tell me why should a Koryu expert enter such bouts when he knows that the aerias of attacking he is confident in, he cannot attack!

This could also be why the gracies and others only fight in their own enviorenment, with their own rules and thir own "ways of how a fight should be won". Pretty much playing their own game. If someone chalenges me i would say "you do what you do and i do what i do, full stop, no your game and no my game" how fairer can it get?. Its also Pretty much what Emin is saying.

Since i dont know exectly the situation beetween Emin and the gracies i don't know on which side i should get hold to. But the challange is stil on Emin's web site for everyone to see including the gracies so i don't think Emin is realy scared. My opinion is that he is not hiding it. But its only my opinion. Who knows how the situation realy is?

But i could say one thing, if i had my own schools, i woulden't get into this stuf because it just never ends! I wouldent like to get famous this way. I prefare to stay infamous working friendly with other schools, organizing found raising events and so. The general puplic wouldent be so "Lens fan" this way but at least i would be able to say, "hey, i have no troubles in my clubs."

Didn't Emin Boztepe take out a full page ad in Black Belt a year or two back whining about how the MA community was treating him unfairly?

It was pretty hard to take him seriously after that.

As to the paper tigers thing, well yes, there are a lot of them out there. Fact remains that the only safe, legal way to 'put it on the line' and face up to your challengers is in the ring or the octagon.

If you're not prepared to do that, why make the challenges in the first place? (this applies equally to Gracies, Boztepes and Ashida Kims).

In fact, how juvenile is it to go around issuing 'challenges' anyway?

Teach what you teach, study what you study, and if you want to get competitive about it, step into the ring.

Cheers,

Mike.

[Lens]

Fact remains that the only safe, legal way to 'put it on the line' and face up to your challengers is in the ring or the octagon.

Thats very ture, but another fact also remains that in order to realy see who is better, then a fight sould be in order without taking anything away from the fighters rather than competeing. No rules, no technichal disarment, no safety because real fighting is not safe. This way it would be very clear who the winner realy is.

As to the paper tigers thing, well yes, there are a lot of them out there.

yes i agree, but not just traditionalist. As much as there are bad traditionalist, there are also alot of very good traditionalists. And this also goes for modernists. Its not the style, its the person.

In fact, how juvenile is it to go around issuing 'challenges' anyway? Teach what you teach, study what you study.

Excelent line. I totaly agree. It would be easier for everyone this way. Many people would be happier of doing Martial Arts this way. I have seen and heard of many quiting training because of club wars and bad attitudes. But i hardly think this good attitude will actualy be ever done by everyone. It's a pitty. So many nice styles and so many itneresting Martial Artist to learn from but the occult of hate and vs's in this world makes this kind of impossible to reach.

Cooooody coooooody, im off for a little holiday in 3 hours. Going to rest in a 5 star hotel with my girlfriend. I realy needed this. Il be back next Monday. Take care.

Later friends,

PS: i'm in my 40's but i'm getting married in 2 months time. My first real love. Just never had the time before. Aaaa well, i guess god whanted it this whay. Cheers. (Just tought i would like to share something personal, which im happy about, with my online budo friends).

[Zoyashi]

Lens,
Your argument about Koryu practitioners winning the UFC is deeply flawed. Sure, eye gouges and other “lethal” techniques are currently prohibited in the UFC (although the first couple, it really was anything goes), but the octagon/vale tudo is the closest you can come to real fighting without somebody dying. And the fact is mixed martial artists absolutely demolish purists/traditionalist/ whatever you want to call them. It’s just the nature of being well-rounded, supremely conditioned, and a professional athlete. Now, most martial artists don’t want to compete on that level. Its wonderful if I want to practice an art because I love it, but I shouldn’t go telling everyone I’m the baddest man in the world. I’d be curious to hear some Koryu practitioners on this board express their feeling on how they feel Koryu would do in a no-holds barred fight. It’s generally gendai arts like karate, ninpo, etc, that try to claim to be both spiritual paths of enlightenment and ultimate warrior training. The fact is, and it has been proven by hundreds of talented men, that mixed martial arts is the most effective in real brawling. Every match I’ve seen, the “traditional stylist” landed maybe one kick or punch before being taken down and submitted. If they can’t even stay on their feet, what makes you think they’ll pull off a crippling spine strike? It’s not going to happen.

Now, for the record, I’ve studied traditional karate for many years. It’s a lovely art and there’s much that I admire about it, and I think it’s definitely sufficient for my self-defense needs. But its B.S. to try to have my cake and eat it too without stepping up to prove it. The fact the Emin still has his challenge posted on an obscure website (I got very into wing chun on line a few years ago and read many sites, but never saw his) hardly makes it a brave challenge. I doubt the Gracies are searching yahoo web pages for challenges. If Emin really wanted to fight, he could show up at any of the Gracie dojo. I’m sure they’d be willing to fight outside on the lawn or concrete if he felt stading on a mat was too much of an advantage.

One last correction: credit to refining Judo’s Ne-waza into what we now call Gracie or Brazilian JJ belongs to Maeda if anyone, and to the Brazilians . Sure, it stems from Judo, but has changed quite a bit. It would be like giving Gichin Funakoshi all the credit for the kicking techniques of Tae Kwon Do, since that art evolved from shotokan. And that would be greatly disrespectful to the many Korean stylists who worked long and hard moving their parent art in a new direction.

The “it’s not the style it’s the person” argument is ALWAYS used by the loser. Why did the Muay Thai boxers consistently demolish kung fu and karate fighter from the 70’s to the 90’s? Think there just happened to be 20 years of luckily genetically blessed thai fighters? Nope, it was because muay thai was superior in the ring. Similarly, why does the USA always win gold in basketball in the Olympics and never come close to placing in the fencing? Think Americans are genetically superior at basketball and inferior at fencing? Nope, it’s because they have a strong program in basketball and a weak program in fencing. In these cases, and in the Octagon, it’s the style, not the person. That’s why everyone is using mixed martial arts now – because it’s the best ring style, and so the best man really does win.

Have a nice holiday with your girlfriend. And good luck with your marriage! Congratulations!

Josh Gepner

[Kit LeBlanc]

Oi, guys, learn some history!!

Judo is NOT a departure from jujutsu. It IS jujutsu. Otherwise why would Kano Jigoro call his last written work Judo (jujutsu)?

How's this:

"Let me now explain in this connection the meaning of these words Kodokwan, judo and jujutsu. Kodokwan literally means "a school for studying the way," "the way" being the concept of the life itself.judo and jujutsu are composed of two words, ju meaning "gentle" or "to give way," jutsu "art" or "practice," and do "way" or "principle." Thus,judo means the way of gentleness or of first giving way in order ultimately to gain victory, while jujutsu means the art and practice of judo. "

(emphasis mine)

Kano Jigoro, Judo (jujutsu) p. 8, originally released as a pamphlet in 1937 as an information pamphlet by the Japan Tourist Library, and now available from Buyu Books ( www.buyubooks.com on the web).

Sure Kano wanted to 1) see to it that people could practice full contact without the crippling injuries and loss of training time that was happening in the jujutsu randori and challenge fights of the Meiji era and 2) add the aspect of SPORTSMANSHIP (NOT sport)to it inorder to separate his students from the jujutsu thugs of the time.

He pretty much proved the superiority of his training method with the police matches, and with the fact that various masters of various other jujutsu methods all came to Kodokan and adopted its doctrine. The idea that the (koryu) jujutsu masters that fought in the police matches were at a disadvantage because they couldn't use their "dangerous" techniques is fallacious....there was extensive randori and challenge fighting going on at the time amongst the various jujustu schools, and the rules for these matches were very much along the lines as those in the police tournament. All the styles represented had experience in the rules as presented, or they were not engaging in matches at all, which may have been the reason for their downfall. Besides, the winners (from the Kodokan) were all jujutsu masters as well, from a variety of styles. They just all happened to train with Kano at the time. Seems to have paid off for them and maybe answers the question as to what they saw in training with Kano.

There are also numerous accounts of Kodokan members being successful in actual street altercations, some against multiple opponents and in where the judo men caused fatalities "back in the day." If we want to play dueling tale spinning, Kodokan has its share of killer combat senseis, too!

As a koryu jujutsu stylist with several years in one style and an ongoing research in others (I just love judo/jujutsu history), MOST koryu jujutsuka would get CREAMED in UFC or Pride (present or the earlier "fewer holds barred" ones). Those that would not would be those who 1) highly trained in judo as well as koryu jj or 2) train in freestyle methods very similar to judo or submission grappling.


There is a pronounced lack of conditioning, lack of contact training and the friction, fog and pain it produces, lack of adaptive resistance (its too dangerous to fight out of that technique!) and lack of tested realism in technique as currently practiced in a large portion of the koryu jj I have seen on video, seen demonstrated in person, felt from koryu and traditional jj practitioners, and heard about from my seniors from several different ryu. Everyone should read Ellis Amdur's article in Keiko Shokon, the last Koryu Books volume (koryu.com) for a much more authoritative and in depth critique of classical jujutsu as practiced today.


Maeda is less responsible for Gracie JJ than the Gracie's are. Tanabe (a koryu practitioner from the Fusen-ryu) inspired the development of judo newaza with his defeat of Kodokan's representative (Koryu jj ground stuff IS different from judo newaza to be sure, but many of the tactics and techniques are the same, just with a different purpose.)

Maeda took his skill in newaza and brought it to the Americas, honing and adapting it to challenge matches with boxers and wrestlers, and the Gracies learned from him for a few years then went their own way. What they do is still judo, though granted an individual expression of it which expanded from there.

They call it jujutsu because the terms were used interchangeably in Japan and out at the time, and Maeda may have had reason to distance himself from Kodokan judo and thus chose not to use that term.

The reason (I think) it looks a lot like Kosen judo (Maeda was NOT a Kosen man) is because 1) human beings have the same anatomy no matter where you go and 2) the principles of judo(and jujutsu) are based on efficient manipulation of our own and our opponents anatomies as proven in empirical demonstration of the effectiveness of those methods. (i.e. making it work against adaptive resistance, unlike present day traditional JJ).

They are the same principles applied the same way and with a very similar, though amdittedly differently flavored result.


You can argue the "combat effectiveness in a real fight with no rules" all you want, it means nothing if you are not regularly actually doing so with your art in the present day. You may have faith in your system but now we are talking religion and not practical application of fighting arts.

What some guy did hundreds of years ago, or what your teacher did tens of years ago or even last week has little bearing on what YOU can do with it today. Your menjo won't be an issue in the street, and no one will take you seriously as any kind of expert in the field if you have little to no experience in actually applying what you think you know. You may as well be a virgin or somebody been laid once or twice teaching sex education...you can learn all the clinical details, even "technique," but still know nothing about what it is like to be wrapped up in the throes of passion with a warm, wet body. The two are WORLDS apart in my mind.

[Lens]

Damn, Im still at home punching my brains out. The Hotel receptionist scrued the reservations. The hotel is full untill tomorow morning. We had a 3 hour drive and back for nothing. Well its only another night home and then on holiday finaly

actualy "hopefuly".

zoyashi. I agree with you on some terms. Obviusly mixed martial arts could have the upper hand on 1 stylists. But its stupid to say this art is better than the other.

I agree with you that you need to be a hard conditioned fighter for NHB and so. Thats where styles don't come in but the persons do. Thats why its not the art its the person. Its how you do your art.

I have heard loads and loads of people saying Karate is bull, it dosen't work and so on. So i guess the persons who created karate styles where only ballet dancing practitioners!! I have seen Karate people, very hard conditioned artists kicking the sh=t out of other big street tuff guys. I was in Karate my self and know what karate holds. Its stupid of those who never did the art to comment on it this way.

Another thing. I never said MMA is not efective. But i do say that no MMA style can claim to be Jujutsu or Judo or Karate just because it has some background of it. Jujutsu is Jujutsu, Judo is Judo, Karate is Karate, Aiki is Aiki in all their merits and legacies. And yes these art are damn well efective if they are practiced properly. Thats what i always say.

If you whant NHB than you should have some proper body conditioning training, hard workouts. Dosent matter what your art is as long as you do it properly, i belive then you have a good chance of doing well. Obviusly the more styles you have knowledge in the better you could do. But this dosent mean on diferent arts, it could also mean doing different styles with in the art you chose. If you love Jujutsu so much and whant cross training than why not train different styles of Jujutsu ryu's. There are many Japanese Jujutsu ryu's and all have something different and new for you to learn.

In short.... It depends alot why you whant to practice martial arts, then there is some training for you and some not for you.

See ya after next monday friends. Nice talking to ya