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Thread: Judo without teachers/coaches?

  1. #1
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    Default Judo without teachers/coaches?

    I asked this in a different thread ("Are we getting a bargain?") but it wasn't addressed. I'm not sure if I should have taken some sort of hint from that, or if the lack of reply was simply to prevent me from hijacking the thread. The question is sincere, although I can fully understand why it might be of some concern to those who spend a lot of their time teaching judo.

    Anyway, here goes:

    1) If it has no 'secrets' and is based on a rational and scientific methodology, couldn't one forego the whole dojo/instructor experience entirely and make do with a few good instructional resources (i.e., books, videos) and willing partners?

    2) Would the answer to the above change if one already has some experience in Japanese martial arts (e.g., jujutsu)?

    In short, if it's all out there, why does one need a sensei?

    Thanks for your consideration.
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

  2. #2
    MarkF Guest

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    Whoever said it was all out there (I may have but that isn't quite what I meant, if I did)? There are always things, techniques, histories, which you may never find even after four decades, but you may get close if you have the interest.

    Apparently, you either are asking a sincere question, or you do think if you collect every book, video, etc., you can do just as well as those who try the old fashioned way: training.

    Training is not always a physcial workout, much can be learned by listening, if you are far enough along that people would give you answers.

    Judo is like anything else. No matter how long or how much you see or hear, there is at least that much that you haven't.

    Books, films, and videos are great tools for your training, and you can learn from books. But you'll never do anything if you don't experience the sensation. There is always something someone may learn which is new, even the old guys.

    So the answer is no, IMO, you couldn't even approach it, not really without years and years of training.

    Some are special and learn more quickly than others, but there is so much not in all the judo books in the world you can only find on the mat with a good teacher that it is sheer folly to even consider it.


    Mark

  3. #3
    Steve Loftin Guest

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    To comment on the training by books and videos issue, I feel that books and videos are great training aids. They are especially helpful for those people who are limited in the choices of dojos in their area. I actually began training through books and videos. I have never been a member of an "official" martial arts school. All my training stems from informal clubs and other groups of people who I have worked with.

    I have had the opportunity to work out with some great training partners with varied backgrounds. My partners had experience in varous martial arts to include Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, Judo, and karate. So we were pretty much a well rounded group. We would use training videos as a way of getting the basics for a technique. The we would perform the techniques ourself, breaking them down and analyzing every little detail. The best way to do it, in my opinion, is to find what techniques work best for you and modify them to suit your specific needs.

    I feel that working with a group of people, rather than a single training partner, will help you learn more. Everyone has their own opinions on things and some people can see holes in your game that you can't see. The more positive influence you have, the better. That is my opinion. You have to work out with people who have an interest in total improvement. This way, everyone can learn and progress at a good steady pace.

  4. #4
    MarkF Guest

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    Hello, Steve,
    Welcome to E-budo.

    To comment on the training by books and videos issue, I feel that books and videos are great training aids.
    We aren't all that far off, but this quote is exactly what I meant, but if you don't have anything solid from an instructor's point of view, you will never get there. Today, I use books more than I did in the past and even use them occasionally to aid in filling holes in techniques, but I've never attempted a technique I've seen or read of in books, not without instruction. As a teacher today, most of what I give my students in the form of paper are tidbits (factoids sometimes) of history, or perhaps variants of a particuar technique. I'm still not all that comfortable in using videp in the dojo, but perhaps one day I will. I am what my teacher taught me.

    You are writing of a kind of cross-training, which never hurt anyone, but without the support of a teacher who was there much earlier than you, than things, such as the basics, just cannot be complete.

    Thirty odd years ago, I trained in a koryu which today would be called a study group, but someone was always in charge while the actual teacher was located in Japan, making brief stops their once or twice a year (that was short time, so I never did meet him more than one time).

    A teacher just for the sake of having a teacher may not help, either, and I didn't really think it helped in that group, but most of my years I spent in judo dojo and it may appear that, even with the correction of the group, you are just not getting any principles of the techniques you see in books or on video. It doesn't suffice.

    But you all ready know that having an instructor anchored in budo is always better. For support purposes, of course you can learn from books and/or videos, but it is still two dimentional on a flat screen. It cannot take the place of a good teacher or teachers.

    Which books/videos do you or have you, used?


    Mark

  5. #5
    Steve Loftin Guest

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    Mark,

    Thanks for the welcome. I like this discussion site so far. I was growing tired of all the internet trolling going on with the Mixed Martial Arts forums. A friend of mine recommended this one, so here I am!

    I agree with you about needing an instructor to make sure that the basic principles are taught correctly. I never had anyone to do that for me until I met one of my training partners. I had sound instruction in wrestling because one of my buddies is a wrestling coach and he helped me out a lot with that. My submission skills were very weak, but I didn't know it at the time. I felt comfortable.

    I ended up talking to my future training partner and friend through e-mail and we got together for a workout session one day. Needless to say, I did a lot of tapping out that day! He pointed out many holes in my grappling game that I never knew existed. I was getting armbarred left and right, choked into exhaustion, and leglocked into a limping frenzy. It was great!

    The point is that I owe a lot to this guy. Now he didn't have written credentials, but his experience was good enough for me. He came from a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Shootfighting background. From what he told me throughout our friendship, he had come really close to being an instructor level in shootfighting before he had to make a move out of the state.

    I beleive that you can definitely function as a practicing martial artist without an instructor. But, in my opinion, you will only progress faster if you have someone to critique your mistakes and point you in the right direction. Does this person have to wear a black belt? I don't think so. The main thing is that you have to have an honest person guiding you through the aspects of the art that you have never experienced. This is how you can grow as a martial artist.

    As far as books and videos I have used, I have a pretty good collection of things. I like to get input and influence from all different styles. I believe that each martial art has something to offer. It is up to the individual to find out what best suits them. I have instructional videos by martial artists such as Erik Paulson, Bas Rutten, Tony Cecchine, Gene LeBell, Joe Moreira, Mario Sperry and many more. I only have a handful of books such as those by Wally Jay, Gene LeBell, George Kirby, and Bruce Tegner.

    I appreciate the intelligent discussion. It is nice to talk about things without having to overlook a bunch of morons at every post.


    Steve

  6. #6
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    Default Judo

    two reasons why my judo is indefectible 1)Teacher 2)Willing partners,
    no experience is necessary

  7. #7
    MarkF Guest

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    Hi Steve,
    No, of course you're right, you don't need someone with a black belt or even a keikogi. I have a friend who came up the usual way, but for some time, now, he has had basically one student, tee shirts and sweat pants are the suggested keikogi (work out clothes), and the one student is a no-dan. They find time to help each other figure things out which would not normally be part of what the teacher would normally do.

    That works just fine. I am amazed that you pretty much give answers to what you need to do or learn in your posts. An example:

    He pointed out many holes in my grappling game that I never knew existed.
    Absolutely, close those holes, or go through them when there is a space. That is pretty much a good description of grappling. I also wrestled in college some and still use wrestling techniques (OK, I'm too old to actually use them, but I used to use them) to turn over a turtled, not-really-anxious-to-grapple on the ground grappler, or judoka. Wrestling backgrounds are really helpful, just as a judo background would be great for a classical MA or wrestling.

    MMA is a pain in the behind sometimes, and while useful things come out of it, I don't think I've ever had the time to read a complete thread, at least in the underground threads or whatever it's called. This forum is a lot more relaxed but sometimes it is time to get out the fire hose, too. Check out the sub-forum of the members lounge in General, the No Holds Bar & Grill. You can take it pretty much as far as you want there.

    On the books by the people you mentioned, the one book by Wally Jay which isn't bad is "Small Circle Jujutsu." He was a 5-dan judoka before that. You can pretty much avoid anything by George Kirby (he's a 10-dan in an organization he founded through the teaching of a guy who was a sandan, then godan, then hachidan in one year, Jack Seki). I try not to make myself unwelcome as he teaches at my high school alma mater. Economics, civics, that kind of stuff, but probably isn't the most informed person in the world. I tried Seki in the late sixties or so, and he was a nice man, but what he taught was straight out of the Kodokan syllabus but insisted on calling it jiu jitsu. He also didn't teach ukemi which is strange from a sandan in judo, but as he said he taught jujutsu.

    Gene LeBell was a teacher or more of a specialist and helped my game a lot. His grappling/judo books are good because he doesn't pull any punches. "This one is not legal in a judo shiai, but it goes like this." He has now the nickname "If in doubt, choke him out." A really good judoka and a neighbor when I was still living in LA. He also was the guy who took me out (choked out) for the first time. His claims are to be believed, but you must remember that he was a professional rassler, and you have to know he will use that talent as well when it is appropriate. Nice man.

    Bruce Tegner makes your BS meter hit the high end most of the time, but there have been threads about him ocassionally.

    You also have pointed out why you need an instructor, even though there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. You need to root yourself in something specific, learn the principles and basics of a grappling sport. Base it in jujutsu technique such as Judo works well, but when the little mistakes are pointed out you want to Curly-slap yourself. Like football, it's a game of inches, so the little mistakes probably get you into more trouble than the big ones. The big ones you know so you avoid them. The little things become bad habits, but there is nothin with branching out with others.

    Pick up the book "Best Judo" and see what you think. It would probably help if you go through "Kodokan Judo (same publishers)" first but it is very good with the usual moves one would use in that grappling system. You don't have to learn everything unless you want to try. Most competitors only use a few, but use them well. Take a look at Barnes and Noble. You can order both in soft-cover for not too much. Kodansha is the publisher, and if you need any more information I've got that too. You are all ready started with a few good books so the one being the manual of Kodokan Judo, the other is how to use what you know, and that is really it, isn't it, "Using what you know?"

    For web sites, check out http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm for the history, for bood reviews check Ben Holmes' http://www.bestjudo.com (actually both have good book reviews, and for great articles on combative sports, check out http://ejmas.com , Journal of combative sports and journal of non-lethals. For facts and history on that site, Kronos is fun to peruse. You can go back to the year 0 bce, or check out the 19 and 20 centuries.


    Mark

  8. #8
    Steve Loftin Guest

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    Mark,

    Thanks for the tips on grappling and books. As far as MMA goes, I can definitely understand what you are saying. Politics and (dare I say it?) childishness are rampant on the MMA boards. I think one of the main reasons is because it is a new sport and really hitting in on the young people a lot. I love MMA, but some of the fans and practitioners are really hopeless. But I guess that is the case with any sport or art.

    I had no idea tht any of those authors were less than what they claim in their books. Truthfully, the only ones that I hear a lot about are Gene LeBell and Wally Jay. LeBell is, by far, one of the craziest guys in martial arts. He seems to be so laid back in his writings. I especially like how he is so humorous at times. He really seems to have a fun approach to grappling. Can you share any interesting LeBell stories? It must have been a blast to work out with him. I hear that he can be a little harsh at times. However, I think that is something to be expected from a teacher of the old school. His Judo and Wrestling training are things of legend, in my opinion.

    I appreciate the advice on training. My whole outlook is to boil things down to their simplest form. I have only a handful of techiques that I use in each range of fighting. I feel that it is better to know 10 techniques that I can work perfectly, rather than 100 that I am hesitant to try. I have read about a lot of grapplers, Judoka in particular, who base their whole game off of 2 or 3 certain techniques. I feel that this is the best way to do things. The K.I.S.S. philosophy has always worked well for me. Each technique should flow into the other. So, in essence, every technique will feed off of the previous technique and lead directly into another one. Sort of like the whole "chaining of technique" mentality.

    I am a big fan of the EJMAS sites. I discovered them by chance about a month ago and I have been reading a lot of things form there. I actually read an article about the Encino Judo Club that you wrote. At least, I think it was you. Very interesting to say the least.

    How big of a fan of groundwork are you? It is my favorite part of all the training. I love the whole idea behind finishing holds and their applications. If you haven't heard of Tony Cecchine, you should really check out some of his stuff. His base is Catch as Catch Can wrestling, but a great majority of his stuff can easily cross over into Judo or Jiu Jitsu. I was hearing a lot of hype about his videos and then I finally got my hands on them. Needless to say, his stuff lived up to the hype. I would recommend them to anyone looking to expand on their groundwork arsenal.

    As always, it is great to hear from you. Take care.


    Steve

  9. #9
    MarkF Guest

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    Steve,
    Have you checked out the Yahoo message board at EJMAS? They get into wrestling a lot, some guys have web sites going back to the very beginnings of catch, there is also a lot of the old style back grip wrestling, too. It isn't a busy board, but once in a while something good comes out of it. Check it out and write to Joe Svinth if you are interested in early twentieth century pro-judoka (pro-wrestlers). There is a new Encyclopaedia out called "Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia" in which Joe contributed all he has on pro-wrestling (you can find a lot of the great judoka by researching rassling) and the most of the Kronos Journal found on EJMAS. Thom Green is the editor, it is a bit expensive (around the 175.00 US area and is also avaiable as an E-book for even more (??). You can get both, and there should be a taste from the book at http://www.abc-clio.com . If you can't find it yet in the library, ask them to get it, as that is what it is meant for.

    Yes, I did write an article for EJMAS about two years ago, perhaps a little less. I'm still trying to put one together on Boxing, pro-boxing, but while I have a bunch of notes, etc., and it was really supposed to be a review of a book on Mexican Boxing (in the original Spanish) but it got away from me once I really got into it. Boxing is my favorite spectator sport so by the time I was finishing it, I was finding some of my favorites from the sixties and seventies that weren't doing so well, but I still love a good boxing match (Don't waste your time on today's heavyweights. Ernie Shavers could have KO's all of them).

    Gene LeBell gets a little peeved when people make claims when they can't back them up. His claim to be able to KO (choke out) anyone in three seconds or less is true, but you have to understand the arena for it. He's not going to do it if you resist, though he probably will KO you once he's on you. But these days, I doubt he's out having to prove anything anymore. Sometimes he came to my dojo, but usually I went to his when I had the time. Other judo guys are Walt Sharp, Juergen Wahl, and a whole lot whose names I can't recall, and just about anyone at Gardena Judo dojo. The kids I used to fight in shiai in the early to middle sixties are now the instructors there. They have one of the better judo programs, and have a history going back to pre-war times. They reopened in the fifties, but as a judoka I know who now is in his late seventies sai, "Judo was never the same." I've read quotes from some Kodokan judoka going back to the Kodokan in the 1930s saying "This isn't my judo."

    LA is full of superstars. Some deserver that, some don't.


    The same man mentioned above who went through relocation told me "Use what you know." Now that is advice for the ages, and I agree. Know to do the 100, learn the four "that you know" very well. I agree here. I'm not a huge fan of kata, but from kata the tokuiwaza comes sometimes, so even learning the nage no kata and the katame no kata one finds his best technique sometimes. Don't forget, those two kata are also referred to as "Randori no Kata."

    Mixing MA is definitely not bad, I just believe that one should have one of them as a base, the root of what you do. In the last couple of years, I've been trying to work in some karate technique, but it is true about old dogs. You can be a student your entire life and probably should. I've also learned new variants of technique of judo I couldn't use before due to a lack of size, and I still can't due them justice but it's fun to learn new stuff.

    Well, I think everyone has had enough of my ravings, but if I think of any good LeBell stories, I'll post them (you know the one involving LeBell and Steven Seagal, right?) I don't know if that is true or not (some really dependable people I know swear it's true, but what I do know is that Gene would not stand there and let someone make claims he (Gene) knows are not true.

    Regards,

    Mark

    "Use what you know"

  10. #10
    MarkF Guest

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    PS: Sorry, I should at least credit the man whose advice woke me up:

    "Judo was never the same" and "Use what you know" were from a telephone call I made to Mr. Larry Kobayashi, a student of Mr. Kenneth Kuniyuki who is in his 90s now, and was bumped to sandan by Mr. Jigoro Kano when he was still in Seattle (Seattle Judo Dojo). He is trying to get stuff and the history of the Nanka Yudanshakai (Southern California Black Belt Association) which Mr. Kuniyuki headed until recently. The problem is that he still doesn't feel it's time to go online yet, as that was his answer when I asked him.

    LA was a fun place to play judo and other MAs. LA wasn't like Chicago or NY/NJ as far as star power in the olympics of other majors, but it was the most fun. Sparring with the local shorin-ryu dojo was fun. They always made it a point due to the fact I went away bleeding and bruised, but then, I wasn't the one left on the floor trying to breathe again. Bleeding is easy and usually doesn't hurt that much, but getting thrown through the floor while losing the ability to do anything but pee was the result sometimes. We would do it all again a month later.


    Mark

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