Fact or Fiction - esoteric teachings

[Todd Schweinhart]

Hello all,
I am writing to question the legitimacy of the mystical side of koryu traditions. Most koryu have things such as kuji, fudo kanashibari, kiaijutsu, toatejutsu, etc. I am simply curious as to what other koryu practitioners have experienced in regards to the more "mystical" side of bujutsu. Has anyone experienced anything of this sort? There are always stories of these extraordinary things from various ryu and I thought maybe someone would like to share an event of their own experience. Another reason that I have posted this unusual question is that I have recently noticed a lot of partial art (uh, I meant martial art) practitioners have been claiming these phenomenal "spoon bending powers" and thought an inquiry would be interesting. I must admit that I am mostly interested in the koryu based "yurushi waza" than I am parlor majic. I have been told that some of these genjutsu type tricks were sometimes used in the good ole days to make extra funds when the students weren't pooring in. Any thoughts or comments on any of this?
Best,
Todd Schweinhart

[Bob Steinkraus]

Not heard of that one. At least not in connection with martial arts.

Spoon bending can be accomplished thru sleight of hand. Go to the local magic store, buy the trick, and presto! you are Uri Geller.

Let's just say I am of a skeptical bent and leave it at that. I too have heard many of the dojo stories, but not yet come across any feat that cannot be explained thru good old Western physics, psychology, or just plain BS.

This would include the unliftable uke, unbendable arm of aikido, delayed death touch that some ch'uan-fa types claim, and so forth.

Best rule of thumb is believe half of what you see, a tenth of what you read, and nothing of what you hear.

I have seen people accomplish some pretty amazing things, but I prefer them to A) do it in front of me (none of this 'My sensei told me his instructor saw some one who could...' whatever) B) not get shy when I start asking questions or taking notes.

This is just my opinion and subject to change without notice. Your mileage may vary.

[BrianV]

Here,Here!!

Well said Bob!

[Tetsutaka]

You might have had a chance with getting an answer, if you had not interjected a host of opinion and innuendo within the original post.

The fact that you mention study of Shingon and/or Mikkyo Bhuddism, Shinto, and/or Taoism [inyodo] in the same breath with parlor tricks suggests either your question [and therefore the ability to understand an answer] lacks depth, or that your position is already settled within yourself so discussion is pointless.

Also, this topic is one that - in discussing its tenets - falls further away from the essense of the experience as more words are added.

Basically, if you are not willing to "get in there" adn experience it firsthand, then there's not much chance that it will have any meaning for you. I can tell you this because I have gone through the same process.

One last thing - I believe the "spoon bending" reference was an allusion to a scene in the movie - "The Matrix" - which registered a callback for the main character. Needless to say, it was a cool movie scene, but it applies to real spiritual pursuit about as much as ninja moveis apply to true ninpo.

Good luck in your search,

[Todd Schweinhart]

Mr. Steinkraus,
Those are exactly the types of things that I was talking about. I always try to stay neutral on all viewpoints but I tend to agree with you. I was honestly just curious as to what type of conversations this would arouse. I studied majic and sleight of hand when I was younger and had learned a lot of those tricks. When I became interested in Budo I could see some of the same performances during embu and such. As you mentioned most can be explained in a very basic manner if you only care to see the truth. To all that think you can actually bend a spoon, under scientific observation (and no, I am not referring to the Matrix), there is a million dollar challenge offered by a research group. You do it and it is all yours. Any takers?
Mr. Haynes,
Sorry that I do not possess the in depth knowledge that you refer to in your post. The reason that I included these systems is that a majority of Koryu have them intertwined within the deeper levels of study. If you read my post more closely you will see that I place the term spoon bending inside " " to show what I think of the unbendable arm type majic. Some people are trying to show these types of "parlor tricks" as martial mastery. It's like people baking bricks to make them break easier. I am trying to seperate the partial art (and I didn't misspell it) tricks from the mikkyo based koryu "hiden waza" in my question. Within these ryu they too have various "tricks" that are actually associated with something called Kuji goshin ho. Of course, I am sure you are also aware of this subject and its slight relation with a few of the systems mentioned. However, having the low level of depth in my understanding and in my questioning...I asked anyway. Now back to the subject. Have you ever experienced anything similar to this? BTW, Mr. Haynes, what school do you study?
I am actually referring to more esoteric Mikkyo when I mention certain tricks, or more specifically the kuji or juji.
Best,
Todd Schweinhart

[MarkF]

I studied sleight with one of, if not the greatest sleight artists ever, and Todd should recognize the name: Dai Vernon. I also met one "Amazing" Randy who is the one who now carries, or his "company" carries a policy, promising anyone who could prove Uri-Gellar or martial arts-type spoon-bending, etc. of any kind. Today, I think it is worth 100,000? It was 10,000 in the sixties and seventies. Well, there has never been a winner, Gellar was outed on the Tonight show by one Johnny Carson, but Randy had some "tricks" of his own. Before allowing anyone to do what they do, he insisted on certain conditions of his making, which he said anyone who could do these things could do them under certain conditions.

Now, I am skeptic number one, but I also can see a guy who is not willing to part with a dime, as well. The Amazing One was, at best, a mediocre prestidigitator, and specialized in "close-up" which are tricks which require only a decent patter to misdirect the audience. Hell, I can do that in my judo classes, never mind close-up "magic." Misdirection is the basis of all martial arts and that isn't new. Dai vernon might have been the exception, seeing how he was always able to extricate himself from the drunk tank, and never be convicted, but that is a disregard for someone I cherished. He passed away about two year ago at the age of 99. His apprentices today are well known and too long to list or remember here. There is magic, I hope, as if there isn't, what are you doing in the first place? Misdirecting someone to put on a left sided o soto gari so well that uke has no idea what happened, is magic, isn't it?

BTW: Bob, go get 'em. Just because we disagree on one type of "magic" is no reason not to believe what we do isn't magic.

[szczepan]

Well this will be not exactly about bujutsu, anyway...
My wife practice about 15 years Aikido(no, no Ki Society) and as you know, Aikido develop among others, empathy and spontaneous reactions. This morning, when she drove back from night shift on the highway, they crushed concrete on the viaduct above highway. She saw it a long way off, and had a thought “A concrete will fall on my head”. When she approached close, she was directly under viaduct so couldn’t see what happens above, she saw a worker charged of security, who gave her signal to go forward. So she accelerated a bit and this time very clear a thought again : “A concrete will fall on my head”. So without hesitation she completely stopped a car. In the same moment a big piece of concrete fall down 1 ft before her car.
A face of worker was white from fear, but she was so happy, she just send him a big smile.
Was it trick? – no. Was it special power developed during the years of practice – not sure, possibly. Can she repeat it for your investigation?......hm....I hope it will be unnecessary.

regardz

[AST]

I have a question.

By James Randi's definition what constituites a paranormal demonstration. I read an article where scientists hooked a Tibetan monk up to monitors and were able to record an almost 60% reduction in body metabolism. There has also been scientific recordings of Yogis controlling their respiration, heartbeat, body temperature etc.

Are these not good enough, are they too mundane to be considered as paranormal phenomenon. Its just that I've listened to Randi on radio interviews and he just comes across as a scientific zealot who would carve out his own eyes rather than admit defeat. To me he is to biased to be considered as a serious attempt at understanding these phenomena.


Adrian Teixeira

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by AST

By James Randi's definition what constituites a paranormal demonstration. I read an article where scientists hooked a Tibetan monk up to monitors and were able to record an almost 60% reduction in body metabolism. There has also been scientific recordings of Yogis controlling their respiration, heartbeat, body temperature etc.

Adrian Teixeira

Adrian,

I have on video from the Discovery Channel or PBS from the very early 90's a show about "power of the mind" and such. They have a whole segment on what you mention about the monks. In Tibet, they go into a below freezing room, dipped towels in buckets of ice water, wrapped themselves with the towels, within 5 mins of meditation, the towels began to steam off of them. Next, the scientists hooked up electrodes to one monk, and could see threw spectrum analysis his body temputure rise or drop when he wanted it to. I'll have to watch it again and take notes

[AST]

Eric


Exactly one of the things I was talking about. The Tibetan Ta-mo (sp?) meditations that allow them to survive freezing temperatures with minimal clothing.

Apparently the final exam is to spend a night high in the Himalaya's, naked, alongside a river, and to have fellow monks drape soaked robes around you. The idea is to then use body heat to dry the robes and not die of hypothermia.
Some monks can apparently dry as many as 40 robes in an evening.

If this does not constiuite paranormal ability then what the hell does?

Adrian Teixeira

[Tetsutaka]

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART

I am writing to question the legitimacy of the mystical side of koryu traditions.

I am actually referring to more esoteric Mikkyo when I mention certain tricks, or more specifically the kuji or juji.

Actually, you haven't been "certain" at all. Can you site specific things within the kuji-in or kuji-kiri of Mikkyo Bhuddism that qualifies as a trick? Is there a particular demonstration that you can site? Are there specific demonstrations performed by particular individuals that you would like to discuss?

This thread has shifted to things that people can actually discuss, which IMHO does not qualify as relating to koryu. Don't you think it's time to move this to the General E-budo forum?

Also, there is no such thing as "esoteric Mikkyo". There is only Mikkyo. For there to be an "esoteric Mikkyo", there would need to be an "exoteric Mikkyo". If there is such a thing, then I will be happy to stand corrected.

[Todd Schweinhart]

Mr. Haynes,
You listed Mikkyo "bHuddism" so you must know what Mikkyo translates to in nihongo, right. I believe some people just refer to it as esoteric since it really doesn't deal with mainstream buddhism. I really wasn't asking you to start a debate about the subject, just wanted some positive feedback from people who train in koryu that would know what I was talking about.
You still didn't answer what Ryu you train in...
Could you tell us a little more about Kuji in and Kuji kiri so that we could better understand what you are trying to say. Could you give an example of something that isn't a trick? Since you now are training with Tanemura sensei maybe you could add some positive feedback as to your experiences during training.
The first 3 or 4 sentences of my original post are relating to the koryu based Mikkyo. Therefore, I was trying to spark a positive discussion on this side of Koryu bujutsu. I have seen someone perform fudo kanashibari, bo yose and various ways to use kuji in and kuji kiri. These types of things are listed in the Kukishin Ryu and the various branches of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Would anyone care to give some positive feedback or to discuss this subject on the forum?
Best,
Todd Schweinhart

[Richard A Tolson]

Tod,
I am not a koryu practitioner, but I can testify that kiaijutsu (spirit shout art) certainly works, but not for any mystical reasons. It is based simply on human psychology and the "fight or flight responce".

[Todd Schweinhart]

Mr. Tolson,
Thanks for your productive post. This is one of the things I was talking about and is definately related to koryu. I would agree that it seems to be a thing of psychology. This may also be true of fudo kanashibari. Could it be a more advanced way to instantly hypnotize a person and make them immovalbe? I have seen good friends of mine do some outrageous things while under hypnosis at the local comedy club and they just didn't believe me when I told them. It would be an interesting skill to have a warrior coming at you with sword drawn and as he draws near you clear your throat and he immediately has the urge to do the funky chicken?
Thanks again,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

[Tetsutaka]

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Mr. Haynes,
You listed Mikkyo "bHuddism" so you must know what Mikkyo translates to in nihongo, right. I believe some people just refer to it as esoteric since it really doesn't deal with mainstream buddhism. I really wasn't asking you to start a debate about the subject, just wanted some positive feedback from people who train in koryu that would know what I was talking about.

You didn't refer to "esoteric Bhuddism", but rather "esoteric Mikkyo". I stand by my point. Also, you must understand that "esoteric" can have pejorative connotation as well, so it is to be used carefully.

Debate is critical, as it is the only way to define what is being discussed. A comparative metaphor: if you are asking for information on the McDonald's Big Mac Special Sauce recipe as it compares to 19th century Haute Cuisine from the Provence region of France, then that begs the question: why?

You must have some basis by which those two things are connected, and I believe that they are not. That is the foundation of a debate that must take place before any meaningful idea is exchanged.

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
You still didn't answer what Ryu you train in...

You are correct. I have not. I don't think I need to in order to make these most basic points. I am suggesting that there be a bit more care, reservation, intellectual honesty, and sincerity in your post. Those attributes will get you much farther than where you are now.

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Could you tell us a little more about Kuji in and Kuji kiri so that we could better understand what you are trying to say.

I can only offer generalities, hypothetical information, as it were. I understand that there is a good article in Furyu Online that covers many of the topics you seem to have interest in. I would recommend it, but am having difficulty getting their URL to respond.

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Could you give an example of something that isn't a trick? Since you now are training with Tanemura sensei maybe you could add some positive feedback as to your experiences during training.

No, I cannot give you anything that would satisfy your curiosity. That is because my experiences are mine, and they are special to me. They are not a casual thing. I'm sorry, but the discussion I would have on these matters would have to be with people that I know better, and that know me well. I don't think this situation qualifies in either regard.

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
The first 3 or 4 sentences of my original post are relating to the koryu based Mikkyo. Therefore, I was trying to spark a positive discussion on this side of Koryu bujutsu. I have seen someone perform fudo kanashibari, bo yose and various ways to use kuji in and kuji kiri.

Who was this person, and where and when was the demonstration?

Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
These types of things are listed in the Kukishin Ryu and the various branches of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Would anyone care to give some positive feedback or to discuss this subject on the forum?

Yes. Perhaps you could ask in any of the Takamatsuden forums. But - be forewarned - the old addage applies: "Those who know don't talk - and those who talk don't know."

My recommendation to you would to be to find a teacher who is willing to teach you these things - and strive for the capability of understanding it as it comes to you. Timing is everything

Incidently, someone mentioned a kiai that can forestall an attack as a "flinch" reaction. That is not the same as a kiai that destroys a persons will to fight. Just a thought for you to ponder...

Best of luck in your search,

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-28-2000 at 01:08 PM]