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Thread: A bit about Kensei and Kiai

  1. #16
    TFunakoshi Guest

    Thumbs up

    Hello.

    @Tatsu

    Very nice explanations about kiai. It is amazing what you are learning in your style. That's very, very instersting. I just learned to shout and to cry, but why ... nobody told me!

    Now I'm know and I agree with you completely. A shout can stop an animal or persons. If you use it correctly you can "fight" a fight without getting physical.

    Just a question. You wrote.
    The third we discuss is the use of a silent kiai. Forceful exhalation without any real shout. The air comes from the tanden (as do all kiais), but focus is enhanced by lack of a vocal distraction. Also, kiais require that you open your mouth, and consequently, your jaw is in a bad position to take a good strike to this area. Silent kiais can be executed with the jaw clenched, thus offering more protection against chin shots and such.
    That's a fine idea, but if your mouth is closed how do you exhale? What's with the air in your lungs?

    @M_I_G

    Yes. That's it! 2 years it was told to me "Shout! Just shout.". Why? Nobody told me WHY. Ok, they said: "Shout. Do U wanna get the next rank, don't u!?". Ok, I shout!!!

    @arnie

    Your idea about the silent kiai could be true. When I was reading your post there came an idea to me. For a while I read an article from Chokki Motobu. He wrote he trained the kata in mind when he was sitting in seiza (knee-sitting). If you train kata just in your mind, I think, you have to do a VERY silent kiai (just in your mind?).

    Perhaps a silent kiai (KENSEI) is just a kiai which is in your mind!? It is only mental not physical.

  2. #17
    arnie Guest

    Default mental training

    Thomas,

    I'm not sure here, but I think kiai is both mental and physical.
    After all doesn't it mean something like collecting and focusing all your energies, that would have to include bodily such, or...?

    Having said that I don't mean that any movement or sound necessarily have to be involved, in fact I don't really know what I mean :-)

    But if you do practice kata "mental training-style", I strongly suggest that you leave out those loud kiais, at least if you're doing it on a bus or in the classroom :-)

    regs,

    Ari Lappinen

  3. #18
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    Default Kiai jutsu

    Many past experts in martial arts have recommended training in nature to develop one's kiai.

    Mas Oyama recommends this, and he spent time in the mountains to do this.

    Morihei Ueshiba also spent a lot of time outdoors developing his feeling of these principles.

    Takamatsu Toshitsugu only trained outdoors with his students, and spent many years traveling in the wild in his youth developing his ability to harmonize with and disrupt an opponents rhythm. Stories of his meeting with a shugendo ascetic in his youth relate to the healing powers of kiai jutsu and the use of mudra and chanting intonations (kuji).

    Now that I live in Wyoming, I am looking forward to spending more time in a wild environment to work on these principles. A large part of the wilderness thing is also not seeming like a lunatic around others.

    Spear training would be very good for kiaijutsu I think, and I think this is why Ueshiba may have been so fond of that weapon. Bringing everything through to a point...

    Tatsu's post is very interesting, in that there are many writings that talk about different intonations and sounds for creating certain effects. One can experience this through singing and music as well. Very interesting things to be sure. A good method for associating certain sounds with intent is a good thing. Indian literature and meditative techniques rest very heavily on intonation out loud or in the mind.

    Kiai justu is a strategy and not a magic method. You have to know when and with whom to employ it. It is a method and a technique, and not all techniques are equally effective on each person.

    Good thread.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

  4. #19
    arnie Guest

    Talking

    gmanry wrote:

    "One can experience this through singing..."

    Well if I started singing I'd scare away just about any opponent, there's no question about that!

    Ari Lappinen

  5. #20
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    Default Teeth clenched....

    Originally posted by TFunakoshi
    Hello.

    @Tatsu

    Very nice explanations about kiai. It is amazing what you are learning in your style. That's very, very instersting. I just learned to shout and to cry, but why ... nobody told me!

    Now I'm know and I agree with you completely. A shout can stop an animal or persons. If you use it correctly you can "fight" a fight without getting physical.

    Just a question. You wrote. That's a fine idea, but if your mouth is closed how do you exhale? What's with the air in your lungs?
    Thanks for the compliment. Yes I understand what you are visualizing. It's really no problem to exhale through your teeth. Try it. Your cheeks might puff out, but the air will still escape. Plus, exhalation can also be through the nose. Hope this clarifies, but hit me up for any further queries... Peace all!
    Bryan Cyr (pronounced "SEER")

  6. #21
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    Default

    Once during a meeting we were doing kihon and we were used to give a kiai in the last movement when we trained in our dojos, but the sensei who was "giving orders" said us not to give the kiai in the end and try to concentrate all the power in the lower abdomen (tanden), we did it and all the techniques seemed much more powerful...
    Remember this M_I_G??

    Kiai should be seen as an explosion, silent or not... and also as the apogee of breathing...
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  7. #22
    TFunakoshi Guest

    Smile Nice postings :)

    Hello.

    Thank you all for your very interesting answers.

    @Tatus
    Thanks for the compliment. Yes I understand what you are visualizing. It's really no problem to exhale through your teeth.
    Yes. Thank you. It works!

    @Arnie
    But if you do practice kata "mental training-style", I strongly suggest that you leave out those loud kiais, at least if you're doing it on a bus or in the classroom :-)
    Hmm, a kiai ought to be physical and mental, but in this case ... I don't know

    @gmanry
    Nice posting. Very interesting to me.
    It is said that Ueshiba was a great master of KIAI-Jutsu. I heard and read a lot of cool things about he and HIS kiai.

  8. #23
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    Default Focus, relaxation, etc.

    Thinking about Mr. Cyr's information, which is excellent by the way, I recalled a situation that was very instrumental to my martial education.

    When I was a bit younger, 19, I allowed myself to become entangled in a confrontation that I should have just avoided. I was very relaxed in the situation, too relaxed, and as a result, I was injured, though not defeated (nor did I "win"). It was just a stupid mess, really.

    As a result I became interested in emotional control in fighting. My major mistake was that I maintained detached calm past the point of obvious altercation. This was a big mistake.

    Mr. Cyr's post reminds us that we must maintain intention during altercation. Your opponent must receive a feeling of imminent danger. This is much more than trash talking and posturing. It is a visceral emanation from the martial artist.

    In my altercation, I got sucker punched and double teamed. Unfortunately for them, I have a granite jaw. After I was hit, I was P.O.d to no end. I locked eyes with the bigger one, and he and his friend backed off fast, went to their car and drove away as I continued to walk toward them. This was not blind anger, I just snapped into the proper mental attitude for combat. To me it was not a "fight" anymore, and they wanted none of it.

    Youth got me in trouble, instinct and fighting experience saved my butt. In all, a pretty uneventful situation, but chawked full of lessons. <---- smiley needs a big fat lip and a chipped tooth.

    This is all part of kiaijutsu, imo. The different sounds Mr. Cyr speaks of are ways of linking your physicality to your emotional state, and remain in control of both. That is great that his instructors have given a syllabus for students to begin working on these things. From there, I think development is deeply personal, and instruction is largely self-driven. At least, it has been for me once I learned some things from those who are more experienced in these matters.

    This is extremely important in fighting, and it is why it always seems a "trick" of the ancient masters. I believe it is because they finally develop the maturity to do it. That experience sure changed my training methods on a number of levels in subtle and not so subtle ways.

    Wow, this thread is really making me think about the past. Not a bad thing...
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

  9. #24
    TFunakoshi Guest

    Default

    Hi Glenn.

    Nice posting. You're a wild beast, aren't you ?

    I was just reading in my book "Dead or Alive" (Geoff Thompson - I recommend it strongly) when I found this: The "KIAA" spirit shout, is also very effective for psyching out a "would be" attacker. The American Red Indians used a similar principle of war cries and war paint to instil feat into theri enemies before battle, with great effect. Also eye contact, a sharp poke into the opponents chest, a firm push, even a slap across the face can cause adrenal dump in an opponent which often leads to capitulate.

    For a while, I read an arcticle from Erle M. (in his book "Reflex Violence"). He wrote that all people on the world have the "animal/reptil brain" (as well as animals itselves). Fighting means to activate our "reptil brain" and to switch off our "thinking brain". We act like our instincts say us to act, and instincts say us "Don't fight - run away!". If people sense danger, most people will do what instincts is saying to them, they will run (like a rappid across a big field).

    If we scream "AHHHHEEHHH" the attacker will sense danger and either wait (for one or two seconds) and then act or he will run away (or sometimes nothing happens with the attacker - but very seldom).

  10. #25
    arnie Guest

    Default fight or flight?

    When we're exposed to threat our bodies have to react with either the "fight or flight" or "play dead" reaction.

    Fight or flight is a big rush of adrenalin and stress hormones, that make you ready for action (sympathetic nervous system "kick") and puts other systems (e.g. digestion) on standby.

    Play dead is when yous muscles get so tensed you freeze stiff and litterally can't move or inhibation (by whatever transmittor-substanse/hormone release) that makes you hyperrelaxed, deadlike, again unable to move.

    These reactions, of course, we've inhereted from our ancestors.
    They have little value in todays society, but are of great harm.
    You see, if we dont use those hormones (to fight or flight) they are destructive, especially if we're frequently exposed (stressfull life).

    This is one of martial arts training's bonuses, you burn those stress hormones like hell :-)

    I'm not sure where or when it happened, but I feel I've gone a bit off topic here, please forgive me for that!

    Ari Lappinen

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