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Thread: History of goshin jutsu

  1. #31
    Shawn Falchetti Guest

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    I have been a martial artist for 12 years now, and it has been a fundamental part of my life. There are all of the elements common to any martial art: the discipline, the respect, the joy of teaching and learning, the pride in seeing other students grow, the hard work and the sweat, the moments of frustration and the moments of revelation. These things comprise much of what the martial arts represent to me, and they are unrelated to style. I had the opportunity during college to head our martial arts club, and, as a neutral ground where martial artists of very different styles could exchange knowledge and ask questions, it was remarkable. I recall once having a black belt in a Korean style and another in a Japanese style both teach me one of their basic forms, and the three of us discovered that the weight distribution on our backstances was very different. Another time a local Kung Fu school offered free classes at my gym, and I found that those techniques and stances were often 180 degrees opposite many of mine. Yet both were effective – two different and opposite approaches which produced the same result.

    Like many, I knew little of the differences in styles when I joined. My initial selection involved leafing through the yellow pages, sitting in on classes from the different schools available, and choosing the one which seemed the best fit. Whether it was a true Okinawan martial art or a martial art with Okinawan elements was insignificant. And now, 12 years later? Still insignificant. The pedigree may look nice hung on the dojo wall, but I am more interested in who is teaching me now, and what he is teaching me. It is analogous to rank certificates. We have all encountered black belts with only 1 year of training, as well as 21 year old masters. Yet still entire styles get judged on pedigrees and ranks.

    I have studied Goshin Jutsu at a medium sized school in northeastern Pennsylvania since 1988. I did not meet Master Durant before he died in 1991, and cannot offer any data about him or the history. I can, however, offer my opinions about Goshin Jutsu. I’ve seen my share of competition over the years, and I’ve seen Goshin Jutsu students excel in tournaments, especially in kata. It seems hard for me to believe that Goshin forms could be as poor as described yet consistently be rated highly by non-Goshin judges in competition. Is the contention that American judges of all styles are incapable of judging form? As for hip rotation, it is fundamental. I’ve seen and felt the difference between techniques with and without hip rotation; it’s something taught from day one and refined constantly as you progress. I understand the impact which properly relaxing and tightening has on a technique such as a punch. To say that there is no hip rotation in Goshin Jutsu is absurd to me.

    It seems to me that Mr. Allgeier had some unfortunate experiences with a particular instructor, left Goshin Jutsu, found another style, and that style was a fit for what he wanted from a martial art. The techniques for him in Shotokan clicked and made sense. In my case the techniques of Kung Fu did not click, personally, but I don’t think that has anything to do with their validity. Kung Fu was not my fit. One of my best friends has studied Kung Fu for 15 years now, and it does click for him. Having sparred with each other, discussed techniques and forms, we’ve both developed a respect for the validity of the other’s style.

    I have no objection to Mr. Allgeier’s inquiry into the history of Goshin Jutsu. I think an objective discussion is healthy. Certainly it would be interesting to prove whether it has Okinawan origins or is a martial art influenced by Okinawan techniques. And interesting is as far as it would go for me – I have already stated my feelings about pedigrees. But what I do find objectionable is that this has been extrapolated to ‘all Goshin Jutsu schools and teachers are a cult and a sham’. It also seems to me that all the discussion around the technical inferiority of GJ techniques is no more than a variation of the too-often spoken phrase ‘my style is better than yours because…’

    As always, our classes are open for anyone who has interest or questions. I recommend those with questions actually watch a class before making up their minds based simply on what they read on a website. I can recommend some excellent GJ schools. The school where I study has a website at http://duffeeskarate.com. A previous post has mentioned the RealVideo clips located there from one of our summer demonstrations. Although the clips are available, I still encourage watching a class and talking with students for a more complete picture. After all, it’s not as if breaking flaming boards is part of a normal karate class. Demos are intended to be entertaining and attract interest – not teach the subtleties of the martial art.

    I wish Mr. Allgeier continued luck with his new style – it sounds like he has found his fit, and I encourage others with questions to speak to some GJ practitioners to have a more balanced picture of what the style represents.

    Sincerely,
    Shawn Falchetti

  2. #32
    Jesse Guest

    Default all goshin schools are a cult or a sham

    The issue has been wether or not goshin jutsu is a legitimate style of Karate-Do. It is not. However some schools do have a cult mentality in the system. To me a piece of tin represents nothing to me. I feel that many Karate-do masters who had concerns about tournaments where right. I think "open tournaments" have watered down Karate in the United States. I have studied goshin jutsu for over many years. I have studied under Jerry Durant as well before his passing. Most most goshin schools have three areas of in instruction,Durants made up Kata's,self defense techniques and tournement fighting. All three are different from the others in technique and form. I have never seen a Goshin stylist win a fighting match from using techniques from Durants kata. The self defense techniques taught also do not use Durants kata as a basis. Most self defense techniques taught at goshin schools are similar to military type hand to hand combat drills. Do these techniques work? Yes in some situations they will. Can a goshin student fight on the street? Yes! But sadly there is much more to Karate-Do than that. Theres also more to Karate than
    playing tag in a tournament ring for points.

    Jesse








    Jesse

  3. #33
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    Jesse - what years did you study with Jerry Durante?

    Kevin Meisner

  4. #34
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    Welcome t this place Jesse,

    I hope you continue here but

    let me refresh the rules for you (found atthe bottom of each page):

    Forum Rules:
    Please sign your posts with your full name.
    Profanity will not be tolerated.
    Blatant commercial advertising is not allowed.
    Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect.

    Thanks,
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  5. #35
    JAMJTX Guest

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    "Mr. Fletcher told me the story of Richard Baillargeon, who opened up the United States branch of the Seishin-Kai in the 1960's for anyone willing to pay to join. This is in contrast to the fact that the Seishin-Kai Karate Union was formed for the Motobu-Ha Shito-Ryu only. As Mr. Fletcher said to me that Baillargeon's actions were along the lines of "send me money and I'll send you rank." And, Mr. Fletcher specified that "claims and certificates like Durant's are a dime-a-dozen," because or Baillargeon's policies."

    This is absolute nonsense.
    Mr. Baillargeon did NOT open up Seishin Kai to "anyone that wanted to pay" He did leave the Seishin Kai in 1974 to establish the National Karate and Jiu Jitsu Union as a non-profit group. To join NKJU one would have to provide documentation of ranks that they claimed.
    Certificate fees and other costs were quite low and training was quite harsh. Many stayed away because the training was too hard.
    Mr. Baillargeon turned away many who wanted to join NKJU but had doubtful documentation or non at all.

    Jim Mc Coy

  6. #36
    JAMJTX Guest

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    "Baillargeon returned to the United States, he already had a quantity of pre-made rank certificates"
    Unfortunately, this is one of Shogo Kuniba's legacies. He gave too many people "pre printed rank certificates" - actually he sold them.
    So although some may have them - they may not have come from Baillargeon.

    As for Mr. Fletcher - he teaches the later "Goshin Do" versions of Kuniba's Martial Art - which was watered down for mass marketing.
    If you want to know about Kuniba's teaching seek some of those who trained with him prior to his relocation to the U.S.
    I sought out Mr. Fletcher once and learned 2 things: He charges way too much money and he did not learn the Goshin Budo Kata originally created by Shogo Kuniba. I did not feel that it was worth the exorbitant amount of money that he wanted for a 4 hour seminar. There are more knowledgeble people who charge a lot less.
    For him to charge Mr. Baillargeon with crass commercialism is ridiculous.

    Jim Mc Coy

  7. #37
    JAMJTX Guest

    Default No more e-budo for me

    Since I am sick and tired of e-budo (the owner and moderators) not this topic, I will not be posting to e-budo anymore.
    If anyone wishes to communicate with me re: this thread please e-mail me.

    Jim Mc Coy

  8. #38
    drwho Guest

    Exclamation Goshin Jutusu Ryu Controversy

    I have read a number of opinions on this site cocerning the authencity of the Goshin Style. I have studied Goshin Jutus Ryu for over 8 years and currently hold the rank of Nidan I studied with Master Bachman, Master Neufer, and Grand Master Harsch nad have certificates of rank to support this statment. I have also studied Shaolin White Crane and Shaolin White Dragon Kung FU. I have also been in clnics with Honshi Capella and the late Grand Master Durante's Erie Dojo. I also have had opportunities to speak with Jerry's son Master Durante.
    I believe that the aforementioned gives me some crediability in discussing the Goshin tradition. There have been a number of critiques made about the Okinawan roots of Goshin Jutsu and indeed an examination of the literature on the History of Martal Arts makes no direct reference to the existence of such a style. However the roots of Okinawan Karate are deeply steeped in the White Crane School of Shaolin Kungfu. Dr. Yang has delineated the history of White Crane and in his text enititled Shaolin White Crane: The roots of Okinawan Karate. It is clear also that Yang Still Tai Chi has also played a role in the development of White Crane and ergo on Okinawan Karate. If one carefully examines the original Cappella Manual on Goshin Jutsu and goes beyond the stanadard Katas of Kishu, Motasaki, Godan, and rather inspects Katachi Chugokio Ta Do, Ichi Ni Hibi and Shaolin Kung Fu Rei one can see the incorporation of crane technique, sochin dachi style, Shin Na, Abuki breathing, and the use of Hands of Lohan. Furthemore, the structures of the Katas and the text on tidal blood flow and Jin uses Chinese kanji. Snake style and crane shaking jin also appear in this section.
    The bone breaking techniques incorporated in Goshin appear also in Shaolin white Crain as do the style of the "waza". Aikido form also seem to have been added into belt requirements which are not specified clearly in the Capella Text. Shinto Ryu, Ishin Ryu and Goren Ryu traditions were adapted from Shaolin techniques to fit the particularly terrain and morphology of the Okinawan people residing in these areas. It would appear that Goshin Jutsu techniques by inspection did not develop directly from Okinawan forms nor do they appear to be purely military combat techniques. It is most likely the early Kata follow the Pinnan Katas taught in Okinawan Grammar Schools as exerecise drills and that the later Katas were incorporated from Shaolin Kung Fu and not from Shotokan Japanese Styles or Shinto or Ishin Ryu. The use of the JuJi style and the movement to cirular movements from linear hip thrust and strikes also reflects the influence of White Crane. The imortance of Kiba Dachi and Sochin Stance also point to Shaolin influences.
    In summary I contend that the goshin style was not confabulated by Grand Master Durant as some have suggested but rathe reflect direct training in the White Crane Style and in the use of Shaolin breathing and hand strike techniques most likely Shaolin Long Fist. Somewhere the roots of these styles were mixed and juxtaposed with does found in traditional Okinaw

  9. #39
    drwho Guest

    Exclamation Goshin Jutusu Ryu Controversy

    I have read a number of opinions on this site cocerning the authencity of the Goshin Style. I have studied Goshin Jutus Ryu for over 8 years and currently hold the rank of Nidan I studied with Master Bachman, Master Neufer, and Grand Master Harsch nad have certificates of rank to support this statment. I have also studied Shaolin White Crane and Shaolin White Dragon Kung FU. I have also been in clnics with Honshi Capella and the late Grand Master Durante's Erie Dojo. I also have had opportunities to speak with Jerry's son Master Durante.
    I believe that the aforementioned gives me some crediability in discussing the Goshin tradition. There have been a number of critiques made about the Okinawan roots of Goshin Jutsu and indeed an examination of the literature on the History of Martal Arts makes no direct reference to the existence of such a style. However the roots of Okinawan Karate are deeply steeped in the White Crane School of Shaolin Kungfu. Dr. Yang has delineated the history of White Crane and in his text enititled Shaolin White Crane: The roots of Okinawan Karate. It is clear also that Yang Still Tai Chi has also played a role in the development of White Crane and ergo on Okinawan Karate. If one carefully examines the original Cappella Manual on Goshin
    Jutsu and goes beyond the stanadard Katas of Kishu, Motasaki, Godan, and rather inspects Katachi Chugokio Ta Do, Ichi Ni Hibi and Shaolin Kung Fu Rei one can see the incorporation of crane technique, sochin dachi style, Shin Na, Abuki breathing, and the use of Hands of Lohan. Furthemore, the structures of the Katas and the text on tidal blood flow and Jin uses Chinese kanji. Snake style and crane shaking jin also appear in this section.
    The bone breaking techniques incorporated in Goshin appear also in Shaolin white Crain as do the style of the "waza". Aikido form also seem to have been added into belt requirements which are not specified clearly in the Capella Text. Shinto Ryu, Ishin Ryu and Goren Ryu traditions were adapted from Shaolin techniques to fit the particularly terrain and morphology of the Okinawan people residing in these areas. It would appear that Goshin Jutsu techniques by inspection did not develop directly from Okinawan forms nor do they appear to be purely military combat techniques. It is most likely the early Kata follow the Pinnan Katas taught in Okinawan Grammar Schools as exerecise drills and that the later Katas were incorporated from Shaolin Kung Fu and not from Shotokan Japanese Styles or Shinto or Ishin Ryu. The use of the JuJi style and the movement to cirular movements from linear hip thrust and strikes also reflects the influence of White Crane. The imortance of Kiba Dachi and Sochin Stance also point to Shaolin influences.
    In summary I contend that the goshin style was not confabulated by Grand Master Durant as some have suggested but rathe reflect direct training in the White Crane Style and in the use of Shaolin breathing and hand strike techniques most likely Shaolin Long Fist. Somewhere the roots of these styles were mixed and juxtaposed with does found in traditional Okinawan Karate which would include the use of thrusting hips and take down techiques. THe use of whipping jin is almost completely absent with exception of belt requirements which appear to incorporate the Tobi flyining style and spinning motions characteristic of Southern Crane.
    Dr. who

  10. #40
    JAMJTX Guest

    Default MANY ERRORS IN THE GOSHIN JUTSU

    Let's just start with the first error. Goshin Jutsu simply means "self defense art" it is not a style of martial art. It is unlikely that you will find any Japanese writing on martial arts that does not contain the phrase "goshin jutsu" - just as unlikely as you would be to find an English language writing on martial arts that does not contain the phrase "self defense". Even in Jigaro Kano's books you will find mention of "Goshin Jutsu no Kata". Again this is just a demonstration of how the martial art of Judo can be used as a Goshin Jutsu/Self Defense Art.
    The use of the phrase "Goshin Jutsu" as the name of a martial art style really just continues to show a misunderstanding of the Japanese language - which is just another area where Durant fell way short.
    In the 1960's Shogo Kuniba popluarized the term "Goshin Budo" by using the term to describe his unique combination of Aikido, Judo and Karate and his unique bunkai of the Motobuha Shito Ryu Kata. He used the phrase "Goshin Budo" to mean "applied self defense". Several of his students continued to apply the term "Goshin Budo" as the name of a style of Jujitsu. I myself did that for a long time. But it is incorrect.
    Throughtout the 1960's and 70's Kuniba's organization (Seishin Kai) grew very large and was one of the most prestigous Karate organizations in the world. The U.S. representative for the Kai was Richard Baillargeon. Some time during this period, Durant either joined or tried to join the Seishin Kai. It is not possible at this time to find out if he was ever actually a member. Some have told me that they "heard of him" but I can not find anyone who ever met him. But for a long time, Durant and his followers claimed that Durant was a student of Shogo Kuniba. That is a lie.
    It was also claimed on one web site that Durant was the northeast rep for the Seishin Kai, having been nominated by Richard Baillargeon. That is also a lie. Durant also at one time claimed to have been promoted to Godan by Richard Baillargeon. That is also a lie. A certificate he claimed was signed by Bailalrgeon has been shown to be a fake.
    Now if Durant truly did learn this ancient system of self defense simply called "self defense art" then why did he try so hard to convince people that he trained with Kuniba and had been promoted by Baillargeon? Had he had any legit claim to a legit art, he would not have given a flip about either one. But he was very eager to find a quick way to affiliate with legit people and get certificates from them. The man was liar and a fraud.
    I would assume that Durant heard of Kuniba and his "goshin budo" then set out to make some affiliation with him. Then when he could not earn legitimate rank he went out on his own, created this ridiculous history then called his "art" Goshin Jutsu to make it sound like a more combative version of Kuniba's Goshin Budo. Only like I said, there was no art called "Goshin Budo" just as there is no art called "Goshin Jutsu".

    Jim Mc Coy

  11. #41
    Aiki-Baba Guest

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    I wasn't going to say a word about any of this. I have had my own experiences with "historical lineages" and all in all it doesn't change what I was taught. (not Goshin) I live very close to Master Bragues school know many of his students and have had words with some of them about the practicality of the techniques. It is a "modern method of self-defense". Never during any of my discussions with Yudansha from Brague's school have I ever heard mention of Aiki. I assure you there is a reason for that.

    The students do seem to have a strange reverence or at least a zeal for their system and their school. I suppose that isn't all bad.

    What has promted me to write were the video clips I saw. They are/were awful. The Self-Defense techniques might work on a drunk pre-schooler and the group kata you would think should at least look as if everyone was doing the same Kata.

    I don't care what martial art somebody trains in, they all have strong and weak facets, BUT it should at least be realistic and effective. A room full of trophies means very little when faced on the street or confronted in your home. Lite contact to the head will always get you hit back.

    Peace to you all;

    Aaron Nowell

  12. #42
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    One, this message will more then likely be deleted by a moderator who decides he hates me for saying the messages are hateful.
    Not at all. You might get banned for not signing your posts with your real name though...

    I get a chuckle any time someone mentions that all do here is trash people, etc. Obviously anyone making that claim has not taken the time to read the forums. There are tons of great discussions here if you take the time to read them.

    E-budo is about budo. Durant's goshinjutsu appears not to be a Japanese martial art. It is Pseudo Budo. It may be a great martial art today, but their claims are highly suspect. That is why this thread is titled: HISTORY of goshin jutsu.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  13. #43
    bob.doss Guest

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    At the risk of re-opening this old thread, I've decided to post this belated reply because I just can't help myself.

    For about 3 years in the 70's, I took Karate lessons in Erie, PA from Artis Simmons, a man for whom I have the highest respect.

    Though not a serious student, I was proud to be associated with Artis Simmons.

    During that time, I was witness to Jerry Durant's conduct at multiple tournaments in the area. In my judgment, he behaved as a testosterone-driven bully and a dirty street fighter, and encouraged/exhorted his students to do the same.

    I was NOT proud to be associated with Jerry Durant, if only through a common interest in martial arts.

    Whether Jerry Durant was taught goshun jutsu by a master in Okinawa, or invented it in his garage in America seems nearly meaningless to me. What DOES matter to me is that he taught it as a mean-spirited, “self-offense” method, in stark contrast to the “violence as a last resort” philosophy that many people associate with Japanese Karate.

    In my opinion, today’s goshun jutsu students can claim a Japanese heritage only to the degree that their teachings honor the fundamental precepts of all Karate styles, while eschewing the “win at any cost” street fighting mentality that made Jerry Durant and his students infamous.

    How you rotate your hips does not validate your style – how you live your life does.

    Bob Doss

  14. #44
    MKERN Guest

    Smile Ken Algier claims, etc.

    I can validate a bit of what Ken has said. I studied at the same schools in the same timeframe as Ken, in the early seventies, for 3 years. Ken, Dale Eller, and I sometimes practiced together in 1973. We studued under Jerry Durrant.

    The things I can validate:
    --Jerry Durrant was a talker, a teller of stories by nature. I do not know which were true, but some did contradict each other.
    --Ken was an avid student of Kata, devouring every form available. Jerry commented on looking up new forms just for Ken.
    --I remember a tournament in Canada. (Ken performed those forms and was judged rater well.) Our Dojo was viewed rather oddly, I recall.
    --Jerry Durrant often commented that belts had no meaning. I recall him mentioning he had only a white and a black belt on one occasion.
    --Others usually taught. Jerry usually did not. Many of them clearly knew a thing or two. Jerry was largely an administrator, a salesman.
    --Penn State had a darned good free Karate school in the Gym. I was there a few years after Ken, having been in the USAF (ironicly in Okinawa for some of it) before college. I did not study there, but observed it.

    Some things I recall somewhat contradict Ken's story:
    --I remember learning hip rotation. Perhaps Ken was snoozing.
    --I do recall Ken being a rather poor student of sparring, preferring Kata. His form was, at the time, somewhat ineffectual in contests. I am sure he has a strong mastery now, but I don't think the whole package at the GJKJ dojo worked well for Ken as a student at the time. From Ken's standpoint the training might have seemed completely invalid. Perhaps ken himself is a factor in his view of GJKJ.



    However: Ken is exactly who he says he is- or rather was who he says he was.

    What relevence all this history may have on the current crop of GJKJ instructors is unclear to me. Many of these seem to have studied more than one art. Certainly these sincere folks exceed the bar of the "sport karate" schools who turn out black belts in a year.

    I remain certain that the Jerry Durrant story is not yet fully told.

    (As for all the old Goshin Jitsu Kyo Ju Jo crowd, I wish everyone well. Esp. Matty and his sister. These are good, sincere people as I recall- not at all shuksters fleecing the unsuspecting- barring moose of course.)

    Matthew Ford Kern, EE

  15. #45
    MKERN Guest

    Default Ken Algier claims, etc.

    I might add that Jerry Durrant did directly teach the weekend and off-day practice sessions, in wich ju-jitsu was applied. These ju-jitsu techniques seemed to match books I had bought on the subject. They seemed quite effective. They were combined with techniques eclecticly collected from other arts.

    I recall a conversation with Ken when we were students in which we talked about Ken not comming to those often, if at all.

    (Not over commiting the hips in basic techniques was a topic discussed in regard to vulnerability to ju jitsu techniues. Hip rotation was not universal. It was applied to certain techniques.)

    Goshin Jitsu was about locks, breaks, throws combined with some few bits of karate that would work "on the street". The rest of formal karate, techniques deemed ineffective, were taught for the sake of expectations and tournaments. Jerry Durrant considered himself a street fighter.

    I recall discussing specific techniques with black belts from various arts, comparing effectiveness. Some of what I learned as a child was received with enthusiasm by those I spoke to. I have seen some of it used by other masters in demos. None of that was the 3 day per week karate training.

    I hope this may help to clarify the origins Ken speaks of. In brief, GJKJ was neither ineffective nor simply formal karate with a strong historical lineage. As for my opinion: Jerry Durrant was NOT free of formal training in Ju Jitsu and hand-to-hand combat. That would be training other than the bar fights Jerry spoke of refining his techniques with.

    It seems to me Jerry was a salesman of karate, the one brand of martial art people bought in small markets like Erie in ehe 1960-1980 era--- but he also had posession of extensive formal ju jitsu or hand-to-hand training.

    I suggest somebody ask Matt Durrant. I am sure he knows the real story.

    Matthew Ford Kern

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