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Thread: Contemporary Arts Stripped of Principals and Applications

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    Default Contemporary Arts Stripped of Principals and Applications

    Hi, all. Me n' Cady were talking in another thread, when these comments, from Cady, came up. I asked her if she could elaborate on them, as I think I disagree (but am not sure til I know more, and at any rate could use some food for thought). We agreed to start a separate thread rather than hijack the previous one. So without further ado, Cady wrote:

    "...contemporary arts have largely removed the principles (and their applications) that made certain arts more sophisticated. Judo, while it has effective techniques within its repertoire, was stripped of combat jujutsu principles and applications in order to sportify it...

    "Being introduced to a koryu that maintains all of its martial principles, can be a genuine eye-opener. It makes you aware of what is lacking in even in some of the best gendai systems."

    Principals? Applications?
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    The sad fact, in the case of judo or “modern”/gaijin/goshin jutsu –jujutsu forms, is that priniciples are often lost. The same has been found to be true in various other forms of martial arts. While this is often attributable to “sportification,” all too often it was the result of a focus on a particular aspect (competition/sport) that lead to this.
    In the case of judo, while the Koshiki no Kata are still part of the judo curriculum, very few instructors teach them or require them; indeed, for a martial art/sport with such a well catalogued syllabus as judo, the requirements for each rank vary from dojo to dojo, association to association, and country to country. As for the Koshiki no Kata, or “Forms of Antiquity,” I believe it has often been disregarded because of its relation to koryu principles and applications. Because the forms are intended for grappling in armour,
    it is essential that one practice them with the feel of wearing heavy armour-or wearing armour, both of which are rather difficult. Dr. Kano preserved these techniques because of the principles they embody, but they have been disgarded by many for irrelevance.
    Anyone who is fortunate enough to have experience with them knows that not only are the principles relevant, but only has to wear restrictive clothing, such as a three-piece suit, to see how practical they can be.
    The same can found to be true in many other martial arts/sports and even in the practice of some koryu, not only because of simple disregard, but often because the applications and principles have been lost or untransmitted in that particular line.

    Question:"Why do we do it that way, Sensei?"
    Answer: "Because we do." or "Because we always have" or, if you're lucky,"I don't know."

    How many applications/principles are embodied in simple gestures/salutes/foot placement/steps/head turns in your art? Does your instructor point them out?
    If not, are they truly lost, or merely there waiting to be rediscovered, either through other instruction, insight or personal experience.
    I'd say I agree and disagree. The principles and applications that formed judo are still present, it becomes a question of focus and quality of instruction/knowledge/insight.The same could be said about the bunkai of various karate kata, or even the way that one bows.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


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    Thanks for chiming in, elder. I will abstain from further comment until Cady and some others get to jump in here. By the way, I refer you also to an article by Kim Taylor in www.ejmas.com under the Physical Training section entitled "Why koryu? Does rare really matter?" I quote in part:

    "Learning a koryu means learning from a very small set of potential instructors, a tiny bit at a time (unless you actually live near one of the instructors in which case it makes sense to study it). It means that most of the time you aren't learning a damned thing, and what you aren't learning much about, isn't all that different from other, much more readily available arts."
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    I have to agree with Cady here.

    With one caveat, not all koryu are bastions of principles and applications - I'd wager that many koryu practiced today are merely shells of what they once were - some may still have such knowledge, but they aren't taught and/or passed down openly or explicitly to foreign, or long distance students. In many cases the "secrets" may only be shared within an "exclusive inner group", or among more advanced/senior practitioners, or perhaps in some cases only to the designated successor.

    Personally I'd interpret Kim Taylor's comments to either reflect his own personal experience of such koryu, or take it as a dissuasive attempt to discourage the hordes from coming to learn koryu - perhaps a traditional/purists attempt to keep the koryu arts smaller and less defiled by the masses(?).

    Brently Keen
    Last edited by Brently Keen; 18th September 2002 at 22:17.

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    What Brently said. I didn't mean to imply that koryu somehow have, across-the-board, maintained some awesomely high level of sophistication and practicality. Nor that all practitioners of any koryu are somehow up there in the stratosphere of skill and knowledge.

    My only thought was that after experiencing old arts that still follow a mokuroku containing the origional curriculum, it became quite evident how much was pared away in order to modernize combat arts into judo, karate and kendo.
    Cady Goldfield

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    I have to say that I don't think that the practice of shaving away techniques from the curriculum stopped with Koryu Schools. With todays trend toward CQC and 'effective' self-defense there are many instructors taking what they learnt from respectable gendai schools and simplifying, streamlining and 'practicalising' it for the masses. I saw an add in a magazine awhile ago for 'Combat Karate', "in six weeks you too can learn the real self defense hidden behind the katas and competitions."

    Many people that are in the business of martial arts, rather than the experience of martial arts, are doing what it takes to increase revenues and if that means finally discarding the trappings of karate or judo and making it look like something they think W.E. Fairbairn or Rex Applegate would have done, so be it.

    What's more, I think there is already a group of 'gendai snobs' who are seeking to maintain the purity of their arts.

    To paraphrase Harry Chapin, all of life's a circle.

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    Neil
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    cannot be taught is understanding"

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    Again, I say, interesting.

    Can we talk a bit more about the paring down process? Can we bring up examples? I'd still like to hear, specifically, what principals have been discarded, what applications.

    I think, in re: Kim Taylor's comments, part of his discouragement was for people studying koryu in the west or at any rate apart from the instructor, where they can only learn a little bit at a time. But the rest of the article also suggests there isn't anything in koryu that can't be found in gendai, in the writer's view (and it was focused more on swordsmanship), unless I am mis-reading Mr. Taylor.

    Interesting about "gendai snobs!" But you're right. "Modern combatives" can be just as exclusive, I think.
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    Charlie,

    It's mainly the things that can seriously and easily maim or kill someone that were removed. Joint dislocations, neck and back-breaking moves, certain seizing, upper- and lower- body-controling methodologies, along with strategic and tactical principles the sole purpose of which are to kill or cause serious injury.

    Think of it this way: Would you want those things in an art that was to be used for sporting competition? Look at how potentially lethal the remaining techniques are in good judo -- the chokes and strangles, pins and throws. You can't keep lethal methods in an art meant for "non-warrior" purposes.

    This is true for kendo as well. If you have an opportunity to view tapes of Otake Risuge (and his sons and senior students) of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, or of Donn Draeger, and compare them to good kendo practioners, you will get some idea of the difference between combat and sport methodologies. Both are great, but both are forms that are meant to serve different purposes.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Okay, now I see where you're going. I have no experience in koryu jujutsu, so I have a hard time imagining what these techniques might be like. Also, from your description of them, they could only be practiced in kata, eh? (Very, very carefully!) Is this that "something extra" or "it" that koryu practitioners say is in their training, that separates them from gendai arts?

    I have some experience in this with kendo/iaido in my background and you'll get no argument from me there*, but am less experienced in judo. I think I'm going to have to take your word for it on these different techniques/principals, unless you can give me some specific examples. And I hope you can! Are there really back-breaking techniques? I had begun to think such things were exaggerated. Also, strategically, what's different? ("Win the competition" vs. "kill the opponent?" But aren't they so similar as to be nearly indistinguishable?)

    Also, I should remind us, though others would do this better and you're probably already aware of it, that judo was not intended as sport, but as a safe way of practicing jujutsu randori. So to say it was pared down for sport is slightly incorrect. Question: Don't some of these koryu techniques still exist in the wider judo curriculum?


    *However, I still maintain that kendo or some kind of "sword randori" is necessary to create a "total package" of swordsmanship.
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    Charlie,

    It's not my place to discuss principles here. Maybe if some of my seniors have more freedom to do so, they will. However, I can recommend that you get a hold of some good articles. I'll make a short list for you and post it here. If you subscribe to Stan Pranin's Aikido Journal, there is a lot of substance there, and if you have an enquiring mind, you'll learn a lot about judo, jujutsu and koyru (oh yeah, and aikido too!).

    It's better to observe for oneself, rather than to be told and expected to accept everything on faith. Don't take my word for anything. Read and get out there and observe.

    Meanwhile, as I said before, there is very good judo. You want good judo? Here's good judo:

    http://www.onlinesports.com/pages/I,CEN-18712.html



    But I'm afraid that you won't see anyone like Mifune around again, any time soon.
    Cady Goldfield

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    As a first, there often was a sort of "sword randori" with bokken. People often were crippled or died.

    As for your statement about judo, you're correct, which was really part of my original point: many of the throws in the judo gokkyo are part of koryu syllabi, and many of those throws only require slight modification to be used with their original intention: to drop the opponent on his head. A few of them have hidden atemi: yama arashi and koshi guruma, for example, both have applications that result in the potentially fatal injury of the opponent before he is thrown.While Ms. Goldfield is somewhat correct in her view that many of these techniques have been pared away due to a focus on competition/sport aspects, the fact is that many, by no means all, of the very principles she speaks of and applications she speaks of cannot help but be embodied in the techniques, even if they are practiced without their original intent.
    Last edited by elder999; 19th September 2002 at 17:04.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


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    OK, we've heard about judo, and shotokan karate.

    Can I ask - what about gendai jujutsu? Do modern forms of jujutsu contain the same principles and techs. found in Koryu?

    Just as a for instance, many modern JJ styles look pretty much like judo with additional atemi (i.e. strike to create kuzushi, and grip the body rather than the gi).

    Certainly the British post-war styles (in general) seem to be based on judo, with the addition of some WWII combatives, some Catch wrestling, some karate, and some general 'streetfighting' nastiness (plus things like scissoring leg throws, leg locks, standing wrist locks and pressure points - the origins of which I'm unsure of)

    Although mainly taught in two-man kata form, in our club, a lot of the 'dangerous' techs (spine locks & wind chokes, for instance) are permitted in randori, too.

    Somebody might be able to correct me on this, but I don't think any of it is Koryu derived - but I suspect a lot of it looks similar. Or is what I have described 'old-style' judo?

    Thoughts? I'd be fascinated to hear more about the relationships (if any) between the koryu and gendai arts.

    Perhaps, if it's mainly about principles (aiki) it might be easier to first establish what they have in common, before discussing the differences?

    Cheers,

    Mike

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    Aaron wrote: While Ms. Goldfield is somewhat correct in her view that many of these techniques have been pared
    away due to a focus on competition/sport aspects, the fact is that many, by no means all, of the very principles she speaks of and applications she speaks of cannot help but be embodied in the techniques, even if they are practiced without their original intent.


    Aaron,

    That said, I invoked the spirit of Mifune to point out what Kano wanted judo to be.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Well said, Cady!

    Mike: My journey through this very question has been a lifelong one. I started out in tae kwon do as a child of 11, and only after attaining a black belt and being exposed to shorin-ryu, and other forms of karate did I really start to question why we did certain things a certain way, only to find out that what I had been told was just not "the" truth.
    My journey through judo, modern jujutsu and koryu jujutsu has been similar. Just as an example, I practice(d)a modern jujutsu form in which we execute(d) a sort of half-zarei, or kneeling bow, in which one goes to a single knee and places one hand on the floor. It was not until subsequent study of the koryu that my teacher had studied for a short time that I understood that this bow was meant for samurai in the field wearing armor, who would often have a difficult time rising from a full kneeling bow. Close to 12 years of simply calling it a "jujutsu bow," without understanding its true significance!(Never mind what I was told...)
    So who knows....
    Without actually seeing them or a non-western name, it would be difficult at best to determine any origin to the techniques you describe, let alone ascribe them to koryu.Do not forget that techniques are limited/determined by the design of the human body. Many similar techniques exist in fighting arts around the world, from Southeast Asia to the Russian Steppes to the Middle East and so on..there are only so many ways to turn a wrist or lock a joint.While probably not from koryu, as you say, it is also just as unlikely, though not impossible, that they were derived from Silat or Chin-Na or even Greco-Roman wrestling.
    Of course, many modern jujutsu styles were derived by judo practitioners with no exposure to true Japanese jujutsu,who added karate techniques and/or aikido techniques and called them "atemi" or"whatever" waza. Some, such as the Yoshitsune-waza of the DePasquale's or Pereira's Miyama-ryu, were created by men who had a wide experience in the fighting arts, including jujutsu, though to many might question the depth of that knowledge in certain realms.
    Others were formed in what is historially a jujutsu tradition, in that they resulted from the founder's study of koryu and insight, Hakko-ryu being a good example of this, at its inception, anyway.

    Nonetheless, I'll stick to the position that if they are judo OR koryu derived they cannot help but embody at least a measure of their original principles and applications, even without their "founder's" knowledge of them.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
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    Aaron, you wrote: "[At] first, there often was a sort of 'sword randori' with bokken. People often were crippled or died."

    Right! That's why the shinai and bogu were developed. Over time, and especially due to the new atmosphere after WW II, kendo drifted more toward sport, but I maintain that it still has close ties to its kenjutsu forbears. It's not "a game of tag with sticks" by any means. Also, as I have often pointed out, the kendo community encourages all of its practitioners to cross-train in both shinai kendo and iaido and, if possible, kenjutsu, for the total package. Or, as the saying goes, they are all wheels on the same cart.

    Cady, thanks again. You can't expound on the priciples because you are not an instructor, or because the principles are supposed to be kept only within the family of the ryu?

    I think perhaps this is something I'll never be able to really "get" from the internet. Common opinion among modern combatives and gendai crowd is that koryu are cool and we must give props but koryu are not as combat effective as modern stuff (although there are exceptions) - this is a big paraphrase. Your position is the opposite. I have heard modern's argument and experienced some of it, am interested in the other side, and not sure I'll ever "get it." Right now, I'm leaning toward the modern's point of view but want to be educated on the other side.

    Still, I hope this thread keeps going. I mean, it boils down to:

    "Koryu is more combat effective cuz it ain't sport."

    "No it's not, cuz y'all don't randori."

    "Sometimes we do. Plus, lookit these wrist locks."

    "Man, that don't work as well as a double-leg takedown."

    "Does too."

    "Does not..."

    We're much to mature for that, though! Would like to continue to hear more informed opinions, specific ideas. Thanks for good discussion so far!
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