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Thread: Use of Sageo

  1. #16
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    Okay some serious thread necromancy but this has been something on my mind recently.

    What about the knot securing the loop which goes through the kurikata?

    This would seem to be a problem, in the sense that if the sageo is, as I have heard said, an expedient means for hayanawa, or if it could serve as an emergency tourniquet (also heard from an iai teacher), how are you going to undo the knot securing the loop, under duress?

    With this in mind - that is, putting no knot in the sageo and simply running it through the kurikata - the style of wrapping it around the saya to secure it to the obi actually makes sense. Just unwind and you have your expedient tie.

    With the knot, it seems to remove any practical use of the sageo.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    In Katayama-ryu we had a series of restraining ties involving the sageo. The major difference between what we did and what you normally hear thrown around is that we would tie them up using their own sageo still tied the to saya, and their own sword in said says as leverage in many cases. I haven’t seen this in other ryu but I wouldn’t be shocked if others did similar things.

    Rennis Buchner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho
    With the knot, it seems to remove any practical use of the sageo.
    Hey Kit,
    The way I was taught to make the knot for the sageo, was to make a loose knot in one side only, run the sageo through the kurikata, then slide the end through the knot. If you need to utilize the sageo, all you have to do is pull the loose side back through, and it doesn't require untying a knot. In other words, only one side through the kurikata has a knot, the other side is slipped through that knot. (Not sure how much sense that made as an explanation!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennis View Post
    In Katayama-ryu we had a series of restraining ties involving the sageo. The major difference between what we did and what you normally hear thrown around is that we would tie them up using their own sageo still tied the to saya, and their own sword in said says as leverage in many cases. I haven’t seen this in other ryu but I wouldn’t be shocked if others did similar things.

    Rennis Buchner
    That's cool Rennis, something I hadn't thought about. Makes a lot of sense though, and would be pretty humiliating to boot!
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    The way I was taught to make the knot for the sageo, was to make a loose knot in one side only, run the sageo through the kurikata, then slide the end through the knot.
    Similar for me, although the other way around. We ran the sageo through the kurigata, then took the other end and tied a simple overhand loop around it with the inserted side. We could then slide the knotted side up and down over the other side to even up the ends as needed.

    see: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sageotying.html
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 18th July 2018 at 13:51. Reason: Added link
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Similar for me, although the other way around. We ran the sageo through the kurigata, then took the other end and tied a simple overhand loop around it with the inserted side. We could then slide the knotted side up and down over the other side to even up the ends as needed.

    see: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sageotying.html
    Your explanation was much simpler than mine Brian! Thanks for the link also. I was thinking to myself that it's much easier to show than talk through, but didn't have any spare time to hunt for pictures.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  7. #21
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    Fascinating replies, thanks gents!
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Speculating about usage as a tourniquet : I imagine that it would be more effective if the sageo was wrapped around the limb as many times as possible? Otherwise I suppose an extremely narrow tourniquet is still better than none.
    Al Heinemann
    www.shofukan.ca

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    Quote Originally Posted by allan View Post
    Speculating about usage as a tourniquet : I imagine that it would be more effective if the sageo was wrapped around the limb as many times as possible?
    The problem with multiple wraps would be in tightening them enough to stanch the flow of arterial blood. A single turn can easily be tightened with a handle of some sort, but multiple turns would only be as tight as you could pull each one by hand before making the next turn, not including slippage during subsequent wraps. I would never use something as narrow as a sageo for a tourniquet, out of concern for causing crushing tissue injuries.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    The problem with multiple wraps would be in tightening them enough to stanch the flow of arterial blood. A single turn can easily be tightened with a handle of some sort, but multiple turns would only be as tight as you could pull each one by hand before making the next turn, not including slippage during subsequent wraps. I would never use something as narrow as a sageo for a tourniquet, out of concern for causing crushing tissue injuries.
    I'd use it if the alternative is to bleed out. From our modern perspective it is a bad choice of equipment, from theirs, I don't know. It would be fascinating to see any manuals or other teachings on things like this, as well as penetrating chest trauma and pneumothorax. I can't imagine that there was not an understanding of such things and methods for dealing with them.

    I also don't think the multiple wraps would be effective.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    I also don't think the multiple wraps would be effective.
    Agreed. Not effective, and would likely only make bleeding worse.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    It would be fascinating to see any manuals or other teachings on things like this, as well as penetrating chest trauma and pneumothorax. I can't imagine that there was not an understanding of such things and methods for dealing with them.
    I've never run across anything about it. Lots about how to kill someone, and specific cuts and what they'll do to the opponent. Nothing about what to do if your opponent cuts you though. Given the extreme lethality of swords in the days before surgery or medical hygiene, I imagine that getting cut just meant you were going to die.

    I do know that the Japanese pretty much avoided western style medicine until the Meiji era, so basic first aid back in the day would be pretty much unrecognizable to us as first aid today.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgsmith View Post
    I've never run across anything about it. Lots about how to kill someone, and specific cuts and what they'll do to the opponent. Nothing about what to do if your opponent cuts you though. Given the extreme lethality of swords in the days before surgery or medical hygiene, I imagine that getting cut just meant you were going to die.
    Which begs the question: why then have a teaching that says use a sageo for a TQ? Modern adaption that crept its way in?

    Interesting subject, thanks for the discussion, men!
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Which begs the question: why then have a teaching that says use a sageo for a TQ? Modern adaption that crept its way in?

    Interesting subject, thanks for the discussion, men!
    My guess... some teachers, even over here, just have to have an answer for a student’s question and when they don’t have an answer, will make something up on the spot if it seems plausible at first glance. Often these answers then get passed down as the “official word”.

    Rennis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennis View Post
    My guess... some teachers, even over here, just have to have an answer for a student’s question and when they don’t have an answer, will make something up on the spot if it seems plausible at first glance. Often these answers then get passed down as the “official word”.

    Rennis
    I would be willing to bet that this has probably happened a lot more than we would like to believe.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Quote Originally Posted by kabutoki View Post
    hello !
    i just wanted to add this, because nobody mentioned it before. my teacher mori sensei (mjer) of fukui-shi/fukui prefecture and his fellow teachers and students don´t use a sageo at all. we removed it. i store it at home but nothing more. while looking at the availiable books in about mjer in japan, this was the most obvious difference to what i have been taught. differences in the forms are also there.
    is it so uncommon to have no sageo ?

    karsten
    That was the norm here in the UK in the 1980s when I first started Iai, but over the years, it’s been reintroduced by the ZNKR and MSR. I use my sageo as a form of self-expression 😉 I have flamboyant colours, turquoise, purples, orange, various patterns and Imchange my sageo with the seasons. Very few people will realise this, but they often match my underpants 🤓

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