Commitment

[Gary Dolce]

Gassho,

The lengthy (never-ending?) thread about cross-training raises another related question - How much commitment should a teacher ask or expect of his or her students? I was thinking about this in part as a result of the quote attributed to Mizuno Sensei about being a full-time teacher and expecting full-time students. Is it completely reasonable for a teacher to expect the same level of commitment from his or her students as the teacher has?

Expecting them not to cross-train might be one example of commitment, but since we have beaten that to death elsewhere, let me bring up a simpler case - expecting a certain attendance level. Do any of the Branch Masters out there require a certain level of attendance to start or continue practice? How do you deal with cases of minimal or sporadic attendance - e.g., the student who comes so seldom that they don't make progress or the student who disapears for long periods, often right when something is expected of them, and then reappears later? Does the level of commitment you ask for change as students advance?

Gary

[Sammy Briggs]

Dolce Sensei,

That's a difficult question to answer. As with the cross training thread, there's a lot of different angles to consider. Here in the US (at least LA), most teachers probably expect a serious commitment to the art, however this is rarely achieved. Look at the drop out rate at most dojo. How many students continue training at the dojo for over three months? Probably not many. And of those that do, how many actually train hard enough to be able to pass on the art? Fewer still. It seems that most teachers deal with this by passing on the real meanings of the techniques to those who have demonstrated their commitment to the art. Why take the time explaining things to someone who won't appreciate it?

I believe that in order to benefit from any martial art, you have to make the commitment to train seriously at least three times a week (whether its at the dojo or training at home). Not just showing up at the dojo and going through the motions, but actually putting your heart into the practice. Unfortunately most people come to LA to seek out fame and fortune in the film or music industry. In a city where the job market is so competitive, people are more interested in their own self promotion and are rarely able to commit themselves to the time or energy necessary to the serious pursuit of Shorinji Kempo or any other martial art.

But is this any different than the working man who has to be at his job ten hours each day and then spends the rest of his waking hours with his wife and kids. I guess in today's age fast food, credit cards and instant gratification, it is difficult for almost anyone to be able to make a long term commitment to seriously training in the martial arts. Lets face it, modern society doesn't promote the virtues of patience and dedication, or the philosophy that good things are worth waiting for.

Maybe in the end it simply comes down to what the student intends to get out of his training. Obviously, not everyone in the dojo can be expected to train with the commitment necessary in order to pass on the art. Perhaps a teacher should expect a commitment after he sees what the student is capable of.

Dolce Sensei: Although many years your junior, I hope you don't take offense to me stating my opinions to the questions you raised.

Sammy Briggs

[Tripitaka of AA]

Originally posted by Sammy Briggs
Dolce Sensei: Although many years your junior, I hope you don't take offense to me stating my opinions to the questions you raised.

Sammy Briggs

Doubtful that he would take offense... except for reminding him of his age (I'm guessing that he would wish he was younger. I know I do.)

I enjoyed the post Sammy. I really do like to see as many different names on the by-line as possible. I think your description of the high drop out rate and frustration of wasting time on students who don't last very long, will be familiar to any Branch Master, not just the one in TinselTown .

[Gary Dolce]

Sammy,

Gassho,

Thanks for your comments. Of course I don't take offense at your stating your opinions here. Your opinions are welcome, otherwise I wouldn't have posted the question here.

I agree with your comments - especially the one about first seeing what the student is capable of. Personally, I don't expect a lot of commitment in the beginning. But I sometimes wonder whether I should require more. For example, prospective students often ask me if they can practice just once a week (we offer three practice per week). In my experience, once-a-week beginners never stick around more than a couple of months. They get frustrated that they never make any progress and sometimes the rest of the Branch gets frustrated at having to re-teach them the same things every practice. Would it be better to just say no to once-a-week beginners, or does that cut off the potential exception - the student who gets so excited by it that he or she finds a way to practice more and move ahead?

Gary

BTW - Please don't refer to me as Sensei here - I think we are all better off on this forum not using titles or "pulling rank" on each other.

[Kimpatsu]

It occurs to me that if Anders Sensei had allowed just one more post on the controversial cross-training thread, we would have reached the magical 100 posts mark. Oh, well...

[meat]

Hi guys, I'm actually a jujutsuka myself, but i was having a look through your section and found some interesting questions. Gary, the problem that you ask about seems to be common in any style in any place in the world. The dojo that i train at seems to have about an 80% drop out rate in the first three months.
As for those students that only want to come once a week, why not let them for a couple of months? If after that, they want to continue, let them know whats expected of them in training hours. If they can't turn up to class more than once a week, give them homework to do or something like that. If they want to be non committal(is that a word?) after that time, let them go.
As far as cross training goes, it depends. If its a junior student and the dojo is open 4 or 5 days a week, then the teacher should expect the student not to cross train. However, if it is a committed intermediate or advanced student, who knows their stuff, then i think it's unreasonable to expect them not to cross train. FWIW

[David Dunn]

Gary,
I put the quote up, and it had the wrong effect. Far be it from me to speak for Mizuno Sensei. He said it to me with regard to a specific situation, for which it made perfect sense. It has been taken out of the correct context, which I never made explicit anyway.

To the present question, I don't think there is a fixed answer. Kenshi have to decide on their level of commitment in relation to the rest of their lives. I'd ask the question another way round. Would you prefer to see a kenshi who trained flat out, seven days a week, and then after a year had enough and stopped. Or someone who trained twice a week, year in, year out, attained a high level of competence and became someone who was able to pass on what they have gained?

David Dunn

[Jeremy Williams]

Hi folks. Regarding the idea of long-term commitment: here in Japan, it seems to be pretty much expected that a good 70 to 80% of kenshi hitting school-leaving age will disappear, even though they may well have been training solidly since knee high to a rice ball. The idea seems to be that they'll go off to university or the company and spend every available moment for the next 4 or 5 years chasing around bars and discos looking for Mr/Ms Right. Having completed this mission, they then usually return, often with kids in tow. There seems to be no resentment of this, and personally I feel it's a very sane and realistic approach. But what is the deal on this in foreign climes? Do foreign senseis get annoyed with such a tendency, assuming there is such over there, or do they just take it in their stride, as here? Would be interested to know...

Jeremy Williams

[Kimpatsu]

I don't think any sensei object to people who return to training after a long absence, Jeremy; after all, it's really quite heartwarming to see people return to the fold. In my experience, Japanese kenshi keep up their training throughout their university years; it's immediately after, when they become new sarariman, that they tend to quit training because they simply no longer have the time to train--they're in the office until 9:00 pm anyway. Of course, it would be better not to stop, but then this world is far from perfect.
Kesshu.
(Wouldn't be great if we had a gassho rei icon with which to sign off?)

[Gary Dolce]

Lots of good responses - thanks to all of you!

Sorry if I misused the Mizuno Sensei quote - I didn't know the context and actually only assumed it was a way of saying, "I'm serious about this and I expect you to be, too". So my question was, just how serious can you expect people to be?

To answer David's question, I have seen Kenshi burn out from over-practice and lack of perspective and I think this is a very bad thing. I would much rather have students who practice steadily 2 or 3 times a week for years and who balance practice with the rest of their lives than to have the kind of single-minded student you refer to. To me, the person who can practice a couple of times a week for years shows a huge amount of commitment (by the way, I put myself in this category - after the first few years of practicing 4 times a week, I have averaged about 3 times a week, but I have done it for a long time).

We don't have kids classes, so the question of kids stopping practice at a certain age isn't an issue. All of our Kenshi are adults with varying work and family responsibilities, which limits the amount of commitment they can make. The question is whether or not it is a good idea to put a bottom limit on commitment - to say "If you can't come at least this often, don't bother."

I almost always welcome back people who have been away for awhile. The only exception was a student (adult in age only) who had a habit of practicing for a couple of months, disappearing for as long as a year and then showing up again, only to repeat the process over and over. When I realized that it was a pattern and that the student wasn't being honest with me or with himself about the reasons for it, I finally told he that if he did it again he wouldn't be welcome back. He did and he wasn't.

Gary

[Kimpatsu]

Dolce Sensei,
Are you a university branch? That makes a difference outside of Japan, I think, because people who are at Uni may study Shorinji Kempo religiously for four years, and then upon graduation move to a part of the country where there's no dojo. That's not a problem in Japan (2,850 branches nationwide now), but in a country as sizeable as America, I can imagine someone living in Tennessee or Nebraska whose nearest branch would be an 8-hour drive away.
Thank you in advance for your time.
Kesshu.

[tony leith]

Speaking personally, I've gone through phases when I probably had more of myself invested in Kempo than was entirely healthy, given that 1)you will almost certainly have to do something else for a living and that 2) Kempo training is supposed to be cultivating inner resources whioch are of benefit to the world at large, not just ion the microcosm of the dojo.I'd agree with the prevailing opinion on the thread that a reasonable level of commitment sustained over a long period is probably optimal.
There is also the physical side to contend with - when I moved to London from Glasgow and had the opportunity to train with senior instructors on a rgeular basis, I was training 5 or 6 times a week. There has been a lasting benefit in terms of my technique, but if my creaking knee joints had got a vote they might have gone for more moderation..

Tony Leith

[Gary Dolce]

Tony K,

We are a "city" Branch, not a university Branch, although we are located in college town (University of Michigan). I started in a university Branch (Cornell U.) but after years of fighting with college bureaucracy for space, I decided when I moved and started my own Branch to not affiliate with the local university here. The free or low-cost space just wasn't worth the aggravation!

Over the years we have had a mix of college students, working folks ranging in age from 20's to 50's, and Japanese businessmen working for the auto industry in this area.

"Orphan" Kenshi are a common problem in the US. With less than 30 Branches in North America, most of them on the coasts, it is quite possible to be much farther than an 8 hour drive from the nearest one. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to regularly commute that kind of distance. But some do find ways to continue their connection to SK and when the opportunity for practice opens up and these people return, they certainly are welcome.

Gary

[Sammy Briggs]

Somebody from another thread made the observation that all of the really great teachers he knew of had a time in their lives when they studied religiously five or more days a week for about a five to ten year period. I would generally have to agree with this statement. Although whoever posted this (forgot the name), was referring to a different art, I believe this holds true for any martial art.

It's hard to expect this level of commitment, and takes a certain type of personality living under the right circumstances to be able train this way. If everyone could dedicate such a huge chunk of their lives to the art they practice, a "great" teacher may not be such a rarity.

I agree with Gary and think that anyone who is relatively coordinated and physically fit should be expected to make good progress if training two or three days a week. Based on my observations in Aikido, which I have more experience, beginners should plan of training at least three times a week. Any less and it seems that the progress rate is too slow and the student gets burned out from not learning (progressing) enough. Kind of the opposite of over training. A student with slightly above average ability would probably be fine training twice a week as long as they maintain the right attitude. "The person, the person! Everything depends on the quality of the person." (I know, slightly out of context)

What about the commitment level of those teaching the art? I'm sure that a teacher who has a sincere passion for what he teaches/studies will be much more adept at getting new students to absorb the curriculum. If you walk into any dojo, it's easy to see that an enthusiastic teacher will have enthusiastic students.


Sammy Briggs

[Jeremy Williams]

Sammy Briggs wrote:

"Somebody from another thread made the observation that all of the really great teachers he knew of had a time in their lives when they studied religiously five or more days a week for about a five to ten year period. I would generally have to agree with this statement. Although whoever posted this (forgot the name), was referring to a different art, I believe this holds true for any martial art."

This made me remember some Sensei (sorry, can't remember the name) at the Busen remarking that, when he'd entered the Honbu, he had been surprised at how small the amount of training required was. As he put it, he came to understand that, although the amount of physical training one does is important at one stage (he cited 16 to around 18) in order to transform one's body from that of a youth to that of a seasoned adult, and to internalise the basic movements of the art, at a higher stage, 'quality' of training was more important and productive than mere 'quantity'. He maintained that they had been encouraged to think hard about what they were doing, rather than just enjoying endless repetition.
Personally, as a musician, I can vouch for the validity of this approach to attaining a higher mastery of an art. Bashing a piano or a violin is remarkably similar to SK, in that the mental side outweighs the merely physical by at least 70:30. Blind repetition will get you nowhere past a certain point. You have to think, and that is one of the major teaching aims at most music colleges throughout the world.
So, if one agrees with that sensei, and the analogy with playing an instrument, what implications does that have for how we teach SK? At what stage do we start to say, 'Do less, think more!'? I feel these are important issues, as time is limited for both teacher and student (three score and ten, wasn't it?). If we are to use our training time efficiently, how should we structure it?
I should be interested in your opinions on this.

Jeremy Williams